OH MY JESUS!!! MY EYES BURN!!!!!!!

[SHOWOFF]

I actually think it looks pretty good. I like that they gave it a REALLY different set of headlights. When I first saw the front end I was kind of caught off guard with the new grille but if you look at all of the photos from different angles it starts to grow on you. The interior is gorgeous. I like that they are paying very close attention to detail.

 

However...good luck selling it with 103 less available hp than its arch-nemesis. It isn't about how much power people need, it's about high-dollar shoppers wanting a stuffed spec sheet for their money.

 

The Navi comes up short.

 

Because everyone knows if your Full Sized SUV can't hit 60 in less than 6 sec you're going to get the kids off to school 2 seconds late. :rolleyes:

 

I am so sick of people saying that HP sells cars right now. No one cares in the end. The HP race will be over very soon.

[Blueblood]

I actually think it looks pretty good. I like that they gave it a REALLY different set of headlights. When I first saw the front end I was kind of caught off guard with the new grille but if you look at all of the photos from different angles it starts to grow on you. The interior is gorgeous. I like that they are paying very close attention to detail.

Because everyone knows if your Full Sized SUV can't hit 60 in less than 6 sec you're going to get the kids off to school 2 seconds late. :rolleyes:

 

I am so sick of people saying that HP sells cars right now. No one cares in the end. The HP race will be over very soon.

 

 

It's not about drag racing, I guess you'd be fine with Ford putting Focus engines in all their trucks right? Who needs more than 130 horsepower and torque? Isn't 0-60 in 2 minutes fast enough??

[ZanatWork]

I actually think it looks pretty good. I like that they gave it a REALLY different set of headlights. When I first saw the front end I was kind of caught off guard with the new grille but if you look at all of the photos from different angles it starts to grow on you. The interior is gorgeous. I like that they are paying very close attention to detail.

Because everyone knows if your Full Sized SUV can't hit 60 in less than 6 sec you're going to get the kids off to school 2 seconds late. :rolleyes:

 

I am so sick of people saying that HP sells cars right now. No one cares in the end. The HP race will be over very soon.

 

 

HP is selling cars right now, so your sickness isn't going away...but people DO care when they make buying decisions. HEMI is practically its own division at DCX, BMW and Mercedes have crossed the 500 hp theshold in both coupes and sedans, the Caliber was a 300 hp SRT version coming out, and Subaru went from geek car to lust objuect by stuffing Imprezas full of motor.

 

Welcome to the 21st century.

 

Why should a buyer want the 5.4-hardly a fuel miser-when they can have more power and possibly better gas mileage (via cylinder deactivation) for similar money? The grille is maybe much better in person, I don't know, but offering less content on a huge luxury vehicle is suicidal marketing.

[630land]

It looks great. Like the 300, Escalade, and SN95 Stang, intially car nuts went 'ick', cause it was 'too shocking'. After people 'get used to it', then they don't want it to change.

 

Makes the LS more and more forgotten and insignificant.

Edited February 8, 2006 by 630land

[swenson88]

All right. I'm slowly coming around to this new grille. I really like what they've done with the interior and the rear end. I think the new grille looks MUCH better on that cream-colored model than the black one. I'm kind of starting to like it. I still need to see it up close and personal in the real world to make a true decision, much like the Zephyr. I hated the rear of the Zephyr in pictures but on the road I find it really attractive, so who knows, maybe this new strange front-end will have the same effect on me. The bigger problem is how long until the Navi and Expy get a REAL redesign, meaning all-new sheetmetal from the ground up? I hope that now that they're on T1 they are a little more liberal with their sheetmetal redesigns than they've been recently.

[Kris Kolman]

Power deficiency is something you guys just can't get past... The same people makes the same continual complaints about the 5.4L. your sounding like a broken record... You guys are convinced that people are buying these trucks with hp-pigs flying around their heads. How many Ram conquest sales have happened because of the HEMI? Face it most of the "unwashed masses" aren't "fan boys" reading C&D to determine their next buy. The first, second, and third criteria are style, style, and reputation... Most people don't even test drive multiple cars before making a sales decision. Please... Some person that actually sells Expy's, 'Gators, or any of the GM SUVs prove me wrong. Is horsepower really a factor with lost sales?

 

Secondly the 'Gator is $7 grand (10%) less than the 'Slade... This isn't insignificant. And if Lincoln gets in a bad way they always have the 450hp blown engine to plug in. Hell they could go from 87 octane to 91 octane and get 10% (30 hp) gains. And $7 grand to play with the price to get the costs vs. profit equation to work. Ford has always said they want the Lincoln siblings to have higher power options... And I'd love for Lincoln to resurect the idea of an "Emerald Series".

[ZanatWork]

"Is horsepower really a factor with lost sales?"

 

With a difference that big, it sure could be.

 

The people babbling endlessly that power doesn't matter really sound like a skipping CD :D. It isn't wrong to want competitive power for a vehicle in a given segment, especially when power is need to move almost 3 tons. Maybe the math just escapes some.

 

It isn't about 320 vs. 300 hp this time, the difference is over 100 hp. Think of the customers-7 grand buying another 100 ponies will make sense. Even Ford must agree, as the Cleveland engine plant is bidding for the contract on a new 6.2 liter V8...but that won't be in time to help the Nav at this fall's launch.

[PolarBear]

Kris Kolman

 

"Power deficiency is something you guys just can't get past... The same people makes the same continual complaints about the 5.4L. your sounding like a broken record... You guys are convinced that people are buying these trucks with hp-pigs flying around their heads. How many Ram conquest sales have happened because of the HEMI? Face it most of the "unwashed masses" aren't "fan boys" reading C&D to determine their next buy. The first, second, and third criteria are style, style, and reputation... Most people don't even test drive multiple cars before making a sales decision. Please... Some person that actually sells Expy's, 'Gators, or any of the GM SUVs prove me wrong. Is horsepower really a factor with lost sales?"

 

The Tahoe and Escalade will run away and hide from their Ford competition off of a stoplight. And in the showroom floor race. You tell me. This is the "I want" market, not the "I need" market. A Focus sells because it fills a transportation need. An Escalade sells because it's the recognized bad boy on the block. Back in the 80's, Cadillac found out that you could sell an ugly luxury car. You could sell a small luxury car. What you couldn't sell was an underpowered luxury car- even though a 200HP 4.1V8 in a Celebrity-sized car wasn't exactly slow. It wasn't until they stuffed a 4.9 in the things, and put the "rumble" back in the exhaust, that Cadillac sales started to recover. The Northstar marked the rebirth.

 

Back to your pickup question. Yes, the HEMI and, more importantly, that big HP Cummins put Dodge on the map. The Duramax is pumping out a whomping 365HP and 650 ft/lbs of torque. did that cost Ford any business? Again, you tell me. Yes- in this market, HP not only sells, it's the entry ticket.

 

Secondly the 'Gator is $7 grand (10%) less than the 'Slade... This isn't insignificant. And if Lincoln gets in a bad way they always have the 450hp blown engine to plug in. Hell they could go from 87 octane to 91 octane and get 10% (30 hp) gains. And $7 grand to play with the price to get the costs vs. profit equation to work. Ford has always said they want the Lincoln siblings to have higher power options... And I'd love for Lincoln to resurect the idea of an "Emerald Series".

 

If Lincoln didn't have their head's up their posterior, it would've happened already. Seven grand doesn't mean squat in this market- if it did, Cadillac wouldn't sell a single Escalade.

Edited February 8, 2006 by PolarBear

[BORG]

"I have to say... I love it!!"

 

"Someone at Ford needs to be shot for creating that grill."

 

Well, Ford finally has a gen-you-ine "love it or hate it" design.

 

Perhaps this will be their Chrysler 300.

 

...

 

The 300C was something far more novel all around. The Navigator is largely the same vehicle everybody remembers from 1998, but with a wacky grille.

[SVT_MAN]

Here's some proof they could have made it bold without making it ugly:

 

 

 

It's just a cheap and dirty Photoshop I did in 2 minutes, but you get the general idea.

 

 

Ford designers seem to have a problem with balance. No, I'm not talking about handling - most new Fords handle beautifully, but they seem to need some design direction. Their cars are suffering from the two extremes. On one hand, you have cars like the Ford Five Hundred which looks as vanilla as an early 1990s VW Passat. While that may be okay for the older people who buy them, most younger buyers want a more youthful style. Ford should be marketing to younger people, not older people. Marketing to older people is dumb - they're going to die sooner and thus they won't be as loyal. Marketing to the younger generation also has the advantage of obtaining their loyalty throughout their lifetime. Much of the reason Ford and GM stay in business right now is because older folks still buy their cars because it's all they've ever known. My Grandma refuses to buy anything other than GM because they are "unknown to her" .. Anyway, I digress.

 

What Ford needs to do in their designs is find a good balance between boring and too bold for its own good. Ford is trying to be bold and make a statement, and most of the cars I've seen, like the Edge and Fusion, I've liked. But this Navigator design just plain doesn't work. The grille is too busy and the badge on the center is just plain out of proportion. I'm sure this is a product of some marketer who told Lincoln that if they want to build their brand image, they have to make the badge visible for 200 feet away. Here's some news for you Lincoln: It doesn't matter how big your badge is if your vehicle is hideous. Mustangs don't need excessive badging because everybody knows what they are because of their unique and beautiful styling. Maybe people will know what a Navigator is because it's styling, but do you want them to know it because of its ugliness? Any press is good press is a misnomer. Look at the Aztec. Most people can spot one on a road - but is that because they're praising its unconventional styling. You wish, GM.

 

I hope Lincoln finds its way soon. The Mark Z with the 3.5L should help it out quite a bit. Too bad that is the car that Ford should have launched to begin with.

 

To be honest, I was hoping that the new Navigator would have more in common with the midline MKX SUV. That is a true design statement. This is just some more badge engineering. Good tail lights? Yes. Good headlights? Yes. Good interior yes? Good design? No.

Edited February 8, 2006 by SVT_MAN

[SHOWOFF]

Those are both the same pic. Did you mean to have 2 of the same pic?

[SVT_MAN]

Those are both the same pic. Did you mean to have 2 of the same pic?

 

 

Of course I didn't mean to have the same picture .. and they aren't the same picture ???

 

I made modifications ..?

 

 

Can't you see the difference between that and the "real" pictures??? :blink:

[RichardJensen]

The Tahoe and Escalade will run away and hide from their Ford competition off of a stoplight.

Can you even get the 400hp engine in a Tahoe? I spec'd them on Yahoo and didn't see it as an option.

 

That said--comparing 5.3 to 5.4, the 6 speed transmission on the Expy, the shorter 1st gear, and the considerable torque advantage off idle and at peak say the Expy will haul way better than the Tahoe.

 

...

 

While the 300 isn't sexy, at least it's design is cohesive, and it doesn't look cobbled together.

Cohesive is not an adjective I'd use on the 300. The only thing cohesive about the 300 is its thoroughly cartoonish proportions, IMO.

 

...

[2b2]

...Cohesive is not an adjective I'd use on the 300. The only thing cohesive about the 300 is its thoroughly cartoonish proportions, IMO.

 

...

300 = platform shoes imho

[Watchdevil]

It just dawned on me that it's 1959 all over again with very garish over-the-top mismanaged chrome, grille patterns and strange details such as the octigonal grille shape.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Watchdevil

[PolarBear]

Can you even get the 400hp engine in a Tahoe? I spec'd them on Yahoo and didn't see it as an option.

 

That said--comparing 5.3 to 5.4, the 6 speed transmission on the Expy, the shorter 1st gear, and the considerable torque advantage off idle and at peak say the Expy will haul way better than the Tahoe

 

No, the 5.3 is the largest Tahoe engine... for now. I'm aware of the objective numbers (Tahoe and Escalade are still quicker), but the combination of delayed drive-by-wire and sluggish shifts make the Expy and Navi feel much slower than their GM counterparts. All lot of this, I think, has to do with how the throttle "tip-in" in calibrated on the two makes.

 

edit: we still have to wait to drive a new 6-speed Expy to pass judgement.

 

That being said- impressions count on a test drive, not numbers. Take a Tahoe at 30 mph per hour and tromp on the gas pedal, and it'll throw you back in the seat right now. There's a feeling of urgency that's lacking in the Expedition. GM's other forte is transmission calibration- although the Tahoe runs with only 4 speeds forwards, the transmission never leaves the impression it's trying to decide what gear it needs to be in. I've only driven one '05 Navi, and the tranny "hunted" all over the place. Dunno if it was that unit specifically, or if it's characteristic of the breed.

Edited February 8, 2006 by PolarBear

[cdangdrive]

Why Ford why must you uglify?

 

Better get an F-150 before they mess that up too.

[PolarBear]

Why Ford why must you uglify?

 

Better get an F-150 before they mess that up too.

 

Worse- new Super Duty coming out in less than a year. The good news- I think the truck group does their own thing.

[RichardJensen]

I've only driven one '05 Navi, and the tranny "hunted" all over the place. Dunno if it was that unit specifically, or if it's characteristic of the breed.

I know that Ford's transmssions "learn" driving habits, which means that demonstrators and press fleet vehicles are probably a huge mess as far as that goes (constant gear hunting, etc.) but my '00 Sable has shift points that are about as precise as you could imagine. I always know when the thing's going to shift. I also know how hard to hit the gas to get a kickdown from OD at highway speeds.

 

It's one of those things that I just take for granted, spent a weekend with my sister's Civic, and was appalled at how fidgety the transmission was.

 

I mean the upside is a better ownership experience, but the cost is potential lost sales because the vehicle shifts unpredictably on test drives and for reviews.

 

...

[PartsGod]

Wow and geewillakers. That is one (still) ugly truck. I kind of like the new CUV and sedan from Lincoln, but this thing.... sigh. Oh well. Ford styling is almost always questionable, I wish them luck!

Edited February 8, 2006 by Bing

[Apocalypse]

Actually I like it. I like the new overall direction of the Lincoln line up. I thought the MK (MKX? (The Mazda based suv)) and the Lincoln concept (the towny replacement), were pretty sharp. The Zephyr I really like. The new Navigator I think will do well. You may not like it, I understand why. But to me it doesn't seem that much different than the Infiniti QX. I mean both seem cumbersome looking, and sorta have the neantherthal forehead slope thing going on. Sorry for being gone for so long. I've been busy with 6 classes and that girl from a while ago, she fucked me over, but hey, that's life. That and I've become an download freak (imagine me downloading gigs of music onto my new 500 gig harddrive lol). So yeah, so now you're all up 2 date, and I know you guy's didn't miss me, but I don't much mind.

 

Anyways if I had money I'd buy one of those. I won't lie. I think it's kinda handsome. The interior especially is a big plus, the last gen interior was tacky as hell wiht the window controsl in the center console.

 

Now if Ford could only build that Continental from 2002 with Zephyr styling. Then building a Mustang Lincoln, we'd be good to go. Then finally make an engine that can meet regulations, and also provide generous amounts of power. I can see Gm is able to get get away with 6 liters, surpass fuel economy rules, and epa rules.

 

Anyways I'm tired. But hey I'd still buy this suv.

[SVT_MAN]

Honestly, here is where I think Lincoln drops the ball: styling consistency. Whereas Cadillac has succesfully reinvented itself by transferring design CUES and applying them to all of its models in a cohesive manner, Lincoln's exterior design cues seem to be chaotically "copied and pasted" in random areas. The bread-slicer grille of the Lincoln Zephyr (MKZ .. wtf?) could have been Lincoln's new signature. But it isn't. The Lincoln's MKX's grille could have been the SUV's new signature. But it isn't. Lincoln's design branch lacks direction. I am by no means anti-Ford or anti-Lincoln, but the plain matter-of-fact case here is that Lincoln needs to rethink the cohesiveness of its designs in the context of the brand. It needs an identity. It needs a consistency amongst its extended family These random design aberrations aren't going to cut it.

Edited February 9, 2006 by SVT_MAN

[FUD]

WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?

 

It should have looked more like this:

 

:D

[tbone]

WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?

 

It should have looked more like this:

 

:D

 

Nice job, I like it.

[RichardJensen]

Honestly, here is where I think Lincoln drops the ball: styling consistency. Whereas Cadillac has succesfully reinvented itself by transferring design CUES and applying them to all of its models in a cohesive manner, Lincoln's exterior design cues seem to be chaotically "copied and pasted" in random areas. The bread-slicer grille of the Lincoln Zephyr (MKZ .. wtf?) could have been Lincoln's new signature. But it isn't. The Lincoln's MKX's grille could have been the SUV's new signature. But it isn't. Lincoln's design branch lacks direction. I am by no means anti-Ford or anti-Lincoln, but the plain matter-of-fact case here is that Lincoln needs to rethink the cohesiveness of its designs in the context of the brand. It needs an identity. It needs a consistency amongst its extended family These random design aberrations aren't going to cut it.

Horbury said earlier this year to expect on set of "teeth" for the trucks and one set for the cars.

 

It's either Baleen:

 

From the 1930 Lincoln:

 

or Braces:

 

From the 1964 Continental

 

I don't see any problem with one grin for the trucks and another for the cars.

 

...

Edited February 9, 2006 by RichardJensen