old_fairmont_wagon Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 Remember, the Escalade EXT has an entirely different bloodline from the Escalade. The EXT is a blinged up Avalanche. The Avalanche is a Suburban with the top of the body chopped off at the C-pillar back, flying butresses added to keep it from being too floppy, and a fancy mid-gate to close off the passenger compartment. Granting that the Suburban and the Tahoe share base mechanicals with different frame lengths, slightly heavier suspension available on the rear of the burban, and of course the stretch of the body from the C-pillar back, there really isn't a whole lot that's appreciably different between them. As long as the Escalade is a clone of the Tahoe/Yukon and as long as the Avalanche is a chopped up burban, it will always make sense to make the Escalade EXT. Take a GOOD hard look at exactly how many really unique parts are required to make the EXT over the back end of the avalanche and the front half of the Escalade. Besides the skin on the tailgate, a different rear bumper, and perhaps the tail lights, there really isn't anything unique about it. Compare to the Mark LT. The Navigator exists on a different frame/platform from the F-150 at the moment (wasn't the case with the Blackwood). So, they couldn't go as crazy with making it different like they did with the Blackwood. For development expense's sake, they had to keep it as much the same as possible. Be glad it got what little differentiation that it did. With the new F-150 and the Expedition moving closer back together in a platform sense, it will be easier to make a new Lincoln truck in the future that will share more with its Navigator relative and will have more development money available to make it more unique from the F-150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted September 10, 2007 Share Posted September 10, 2007 I meant the Grand Marquis... but that's funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Ford/Lincoln/Mercury has the following problems: Too many dealers. Overlapping product. Uninspiring product. Lack of direction (design/brand image). How does keeping Mercury around fix any of these issues? I hate the argument that LM dealers would die without Mercury; to me, this just means that Lincoln should die too. Kill Mercury, and remake Lincoln like Toyota built Lexus. Lexus, a made up brand name with no history, rapidly became the best selling luxury brand in the US. How hard is it for Ford to imitate that? They already have the quality, they have the history, they just don't have the product. Arguably, the best argument to kill Mercury is this: The Sloan model is dead. Having so many foreign brands here with not just different price points but vastly different performance/style/values(sport, family, boring)/etc. There is no reason for a car company to own more than 2 brands (luxury and mainstream). It's how the market is shaping up. Look at this list, tell me what companies have been profitable and growing: Toyota/Lexus/Scion Honda/Acura Nissan/Infiniti VW/Audi Hyundai/Kia GM - GMC/Chevy/Pontiac/Buick/Saab/Hummer/Cadillac/Saturn Ford/Lincoln/Mercury/Volvo/Jaguar/Land Rover....Mazda(33.4% but operates independently) Chrysler is just a mess I'm not going to even bother. Ford has to stretch its resources to cover 6 and a third brands. They have to manage brand image, design, future products, platforms, marketing/advertising, etc across SIX brands. And for what benefit? No company can manage this. Ford and GM are marked by cycles where brands and models are neglected for years at a time. Want a simple example of Ford's blantant inability to judge the market? 3 series / C-class / A4 / IS - Lincoln MkZ, Volvo S40, Jaguar X-type No one is buying the MkZ over those cars, the Volvo is too small, LOL x-type. 5 series / E-Class / A6 / GS - Volvo S60/S80, Jaguar S-type The S80 could be competitive, but what is the S60s role then? And the S-Type was a disaster. 7 series / S-class / A8 / LS - Jaguar XJ Terrible. There is a clear distinction to luxury cars and their classes. Ford is barely in them and hasn't been for years. Even now, the upcoming FWD Lincolns are missing the mark. I don't care how nice the MkR looks, how about Ford targets the segment leaders NEXT GENERATION cars and tries to top that? That means actually building the cars people want. Sorry, people don't want an MkZ, they want a car that's comparable to a 3-series. Remember the LS? Great car, competed favorable with the BWM 5-series, even Consumer Reports liked it. Then limited by the S-type and intracompany fighting and finally killed off. I could go on with more examples, but there is no reason at this point. Anyone who argues Mercury should not be killed along with selling Jag/LR/maybe Volvo is a complete. Personally, I would sell Jag/LR, kill Lincoln and Mercury, and have Ford Dealerships, and then Volvo/Mazda dealerships. I'll put some info here so you can tailor your responses better. I grew up in Michigan, father works for Ford (not UAW), drive a Mazda 6s just like NickF's but no leather, love Mulally (he needs more outsiders though), and am a consultant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Compare to the Mark LT. The Navigator exists on a different frame/platform from the F-150 at the moment (wasn't the case with the Blackwood). So, they couldn't go as crazy with making it different like they did with the Blackwood. For development expense's sake, they had to keep it as much the same as possible. Be glad it got what little differentiation that it did. With the new F-150 and the Expedition moving closer back together in a platform sense, it will be easier to make a new Lincoln truck in the future that will share more with its Navigator relative and will have more development money available to make it more unique from the F-150. I think Ford could do to the Expedition & Navigator what they did to the Explorer to make the SportTrac. Then they could have a Navigator LT and an Expedition SportTrac. It wouldn't have the gimmicky "mid-gate", but it would have superior payload capacities compared to the Avalanche & EXT and wouldn't sacrifice any of the interior comforts. Then Ford would be able to offer true SUT's right along side their full line of pick-ups. I also think an F450 based Lincoln would be a good idea too. Think of all the ranchers pulling big horse trailers and retired people pulling fifth wheels that would love to be able to pull them with a "Lincoln". I don't think the luxury truck market is dead, I just think it hasn't been right yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 (edited) I think Ford could do to the Expedition & Navigator what they did to the Explorer to make the SportTrac. Then they could have a Navigator LT and an Expedition SportTrac. It wouldn't have the gimmicky "mid-gate", but it would have superior payload capacities compared to the Avalanche & EXT and wouldn't sacrifice any of the interior comforts. Then Ford would be able to offer true SUT's right along side their full line of pick-ups. How about this? EDIT: the bed would probably need to be a tad longer to be of any actual use though. Edited September 11, 2007 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 I think Ford could do to the Expedition & Navigator what they did to the Explorer to make the SportTrac. Then they could have a Navigator LT and an Expedition SportTrac. It wouldn't have the gimmicky "mid-gate", but it would have superior payload capacities compared to the Avalanche & EXT and wouldn't sacrifice any of the interior comforts. Then Ford would be able to offer true SUT's right along side their full line of pick-ups. I also think an F450 based Lincoln would be a good idea too. Think of all the ranchers pulling big horse trailers and retired people pulling fifth wheels that would love to be able to pull them with a "Lincoln". I don't think the luxury truck market is dead, I just think it hasn't been right yet. Trouble w/ that though, is that Super Duty is already really nice. Like this? Haha Its a quick rebadge thing, when I get some time, I might work on one thats really different. Its pretty bad, yet there's something about it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchdevil Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Trouble w/ that though, is that Super Duty is already really nice.Like this? Haha Its a quick rebadge thing, when I get some time, I might work on one thats really different. Its pretty bad, yet there's something about it.... Oh dear God I think I have woke up in Hell! I didn't think the Super Chief could get any uglier.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 Oh dear God I think I have woke up in Hell! I didn't think the Super Chief could get any uglier.... haha Its Super Duty, not Chief, but it doesnt matter As I said, if I get some free time, I may work on a more realistic, more differenciated chop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted September 11, 2007 Share Posted September 11, 2007 How about this? EDIT: the bed would probably need to be a tad longer to be of any actual use though. Do one on either the Expedition EL or the Navigator L, but make the bed separate from the cab so it won't have to use the "flying buttress" things that the Avalanche/EXT have. Trouble w/ that though, is that Super Duty is already really nice.Like this? Haha Its a quick rebadge thing, when I get some time, I might work on one that's really different. Its pretty bad, yet there's something about it.... Try using the MKR for inspiration... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Do one on either the Expedition EL or the Navigator L, but make the bed separate from the cab so it won't have to use the "flying buttress" things that the Avalanche/EXT have. I did make a Mark LT/Navigator LT based off the Navigator L. I'll post it again.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted September 12, 2007 Share Posted September 12, 2007 Try using the MKR for inspiration... Thats what I was planning on doing, but I didnt have time to do anything last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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