skittet150 Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Anybody who is pushing for national health care should have watched John Stossel's 20/20 special Friday night. Everybody who thinks that free is good might want to reconsider. First of all, it's not free. The taxes that will be taken out of your pay every week will be staggering. Ask any Canadian. And the long waiting list to see specialists would be considered criminal here in the states. I encourage everybody to watch the special, you can still view it on line. And I would love to meet the person who thinks that a Democratic supported national health care program won't cripple us. Hell, Jenny on the block wants to raise our income tax here in Michigan, without cutbacks of state funded programs. If you ran your family like she runs the state, it would be no time before you are bankrupt. Just can't vote in your own raise anymore. We are seeing that in our contract talks now! Watch the show, and go in with an open mind. You will be amazed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Anybody who is pushing for national health care should have watched John Stossel's 20/20 special Friday night. Everybody who thinks that free is good might want to reconsider. First of all, it's not free. The taxes that will be taken out of your pay every week will be staggering. Ask any Canadian. And the long waiting list to see specialists would be considered criminal here in the states. I encourage everybody to watch the special, you can still view it on line. And I would love to meet the person who thinks that a Democratic supported national health care program won't cripple us. Hell, Jenny on the block wants to raise our income tax here in Michigan, without cutbacks of state funded programs. If you ran your family like she runs the state, it would be no time before you are bankrupt. Just can't vote in your own raise anymore. We are seeing that in our contract talks now! Watch the show, and go in with an open mind. You will be amazed. I am Canadian. I don't have to watch it. National health care is no good. It is too expensive. I pay more than double in taxes what you pay for insurance. Most of the good doctors have moved to the States. It is scary to place yourself into the system. I now do without health care. It is safer. I still have to pay, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdy1s Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Anybody who is pushing for national health care should have watched John Stossel's 20/20 special Friday night. Everybody who thinks that free is good might want to reconsider. First of all, it's not free. The taxes that will be taken out of your pay every week will be staggering. Ask any Canadian. And the long waiting list to see specialists would be considered criminal here in the states. I encourage everybody to watch the special, you can still view it on line. And I would love to meet the person who thinks that a Democratic supported national health care program won't cripple us. Hell, Jenny on the block wants to raise our income tax here in Michigan, without cutbacks of state funded programs. If you ran your family like she runs the state, it would be no time before you are bankrupt. Just can't vote in your own raise anymore. We are seeing that in our contract talks now! Watch the show, and go in with an open mind. You will be amazed. I'm pretty sure there are other countries that were not mentioned on the show that do a better job with nationalized healthcare. And I'm sure that we are already crippled with our illegal monetary system and taxing system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 I'm pretty sure there are other countries that were not mentioned on the show that do a better job with nationalized healthcare. And I'm sure that we are already crippled with our illegal monetary system and taxing system. The free health care that poor people in the US get would probably be better than what all Canadians get. If you want to go to emergency, your day is shot. When you finally see a doctor, you will be herded through like a steer. If you have a medical condition, the odds of being diagnosed are next to nil. The odds of being mis-diagnosed are higher. I steer clear. If there is nothing wrong with you, there will be after being exposed to sick people for up to eight hours in the waiting room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 The free health care that poor people in the US get would probably be better than what all Canadians get. If you want to go to emergency, your day is shot. When you finally see a doctor, you will be herded through like a steer. If you have a medical condition, the odds of being diagnosed are next to nil. The odds of being mis-diagnosed are higher. I steer clear. If there is nothing wrong with you, there will be after being exposed to sick people for up to eight hours in the waiting room. We need merit health care, so we don't have free health care for those who are capable and refuse to work. If we give free health care to everyone than we have the lines at the hospital that trimdingman is talking about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 16, 2007 Share Posted September 16, 2007 Before national health care in Canada, there was pay-as-you-go, like if you were renting a hotel room or buying a refridgerator. Costs were in line with people's ability to pay. I never heard of anyone going bankrupt over medical bills. It was the best system. To-day, there are many more illnesses. New illnesses mean more money. If a doctor can't find something wrong with you, he will make something up. You don't care because the government is paying. Maybe you can get some paid time off work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 18, 2007 Share Posted September 18, 2007 How do we stop health care inflation LINK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 For the past few billion years it was survival of the fittest. Now, modern medicine is changing all that. New drugs are keeping people alive who would have otherwise died. Their offspring will need even stronger drugs to keep them going. At some point, human weakness will allow the ever strenghening viruses to triumph and we will die off. We need to cut back on health care and let nature take its course if we are to survive as a species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
los pobres Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 I am Canadian. I don't have to watch it. National health care is no good. It is too expensive. I pay more than double in taxes what you pay for insurance. Most of the good doctors have moved to the States. It is scary to place yourself into the system. I now do without health care. It is safer. I still have to pay, though. Trimdingman, Do you know how much you actually pay in taxes for Ontario health care? Most Americans don't. For an HMO it currently costs about $11000 per year (paid by company) per employee (family coverage) for Automotive style health care - this doesn't include dental, eyeglass, othodonics etc. We also pay a 6.5% of Gross for Medicare and probably even more for Medicaid! So for a working making $75,000 US, they probably currently pay $20,000 per year!!! Thats an effective tax rate of 20000/(75000+11000) = 23% WOW! Will this get better with Nationalized Healthcare? I don't know!!. But let me say this: I cannot stand Bill or Hillary Clinton, but I heard Hillary being interviewed about her newest plan and it doesn't sound too bad. It may even work. (read about it here: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archiv...e_plan_has.php) For years I have heard the Rebublicans touting "health savings plans" "health tax incentices" etc, but those only work for the rich. How much of an incentive can they give a guy with a family making $40,000 or even $80,000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 One thing is for sure our current system is failing us and, less and less people/employers are remaining able to afford medical care! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Trimdingman, Do you know how much you actually pay in taxes for Ontario health care? Most Americans don't. For an HMO it currently costs about $11000 per year (paid by company) per employee (family coverage) for Automotive style health care - this doesn't include dental, eyeglass, othodonics etc. We also pay a 6.5% of Gross for Medicare and probably even more for Medicaid! So for a working making $75,000 US, they probably currently pay $20,000 per year!!! Thats an effective tax rate of 20000/(75000+11000) = 23% WOW! Will this get better with Nationalized Healthcare? I don't know!!. But let me say this: I cannot stand Bill or Hillary Clinton, but I heard Hillary being interviewed about her newest plan and it doesn't sound too bad. It may even work. (read about it here: http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archiv...e_plan_has.php) For years I have heard the Rebublicans touting "health savings plans" "health tax incentices" etc, but those only work for the rich. How much of an incentive can they give a guy with a family making $40,000 or even $80,000? Fifty per cent of our taxes in Canada go to pay for health care. If you don't pay any taxes, that is good. If you have a family income in the 200k range, say husband and wife autoworkers, then you would be paying over $40,000 a year. The quality of public health care is inferior. People with money go to the States and pay for operations themselves instead of staying here and waiting to die. Of course, that is over and above what they pay for health care in taxes. I never go to see a doctor. I believe that I have a better chance if I stay away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
los pobres Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Fifty per cent of our taxes in Canada go to pay for health care. If you don't pay any taxes, that is good. If you have a family income in the 200k range, say husband and wife autoworkers, then you would be paying over $40,000 a year. The quality of public health care is inferior. People with money go to the States and pay for operations themselves instead of staying here and waiting to die. Of course, that is over and above what they pay for health care in taxes. I never go to see a doctor. I believe that I have a better chance if I stay away. So based on your numbers a family making 75K would pay about $15,000 per year in Canada. If my numbers are correct thats about a $5000 per year savings! :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 Fifty per cent of our taxes in Canada go to pay for health care. If you don't pay any taxes, that is good. If you have a family income in the 200k range, say husband and wife autoworkers, then you would be paying over $40,000 a year. The quality of public health care is inferior. People with money go to the States and pay for operations themselves instead of staying here and waiting to die. Of course, that is over and above what they pay for health care in taxes. I never go to see a doctor. I believe that I have a better chance if I stay away. National Health Care = health care for all human beings, not just those with $$$. Unfortunately not everyone makes $100K or more, some people need assistance. If you have the money than by all means go pay for a service that you will get sooner, but stop blasting the system that is there to try to help ALL people, not just those with money. Or would you rather have it only those who can pay get treated. Guess we will all enjoy those early morning wagons being pulled around town with the cheerful cry of "bring out your dead", might have to drive over all those dead poor people laying in the street on your way to work...And if you really believe you are better off staying away rather than seeing a qualified health professional, even if it takes some time to get in, you are an idiot. It's not an utopian system, but it's not too bad either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 21, 2007 Share Posted September 21, 2007 (edited) Fifty per cent of our taxes in Canada go to pay for health care. If you don't pay any taxes, that is good. If you have a family income in the 200k range, say husband and wife autoworkers, then you would be paying over $40,000 a year. The quality of public health care is inferior. People with money go to the States and pay for operations themselves instead of staying here and waiting to die. Of course, that is over and above what they pay for health care in taxes. I never go to see a doctor. I believe that I have a better chance if I stay away. $40,000 out of $200,000 is not 50% Trim, also you guys have all the liability of paying for health care for everyone regardless of whether they work/pay in or not! We do need government controlled health care to control and drive down the costs of health care, but if you don't work or aren't disabled you should get a bill! This would help to control the cost to eligible citizens who do pay in! Edited September 21, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) $40,000 out of $200,000 is not 50% Trim, also you guys have all the liability of paying for health care for everyone regardless of whether they work/pay in or not! We do need government controlled health care to control and drive down the costs of health care, but if you don't work or aren't disabled you should get a bill! This would help to control the cost to eligible citizens who do pay in! If husband and wife each pay 40,000 in income tax, total $80,000, then half of that would be $40,000. I am talking ballpark, here but I'm not far off. We don't need any kind of controlled health care. We didn't have it 50 years ago. You just paid. Prices were in line with what people could afford. Now prices are sky high because everybody is paying for someone else. They don't have to worry about collecting from the individual. How much labor is involved for example to remove an appendix? It shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks. Paying $40,000 a year or $800 a WEEK for health care is pretty ridiculous. We are all being gouged and we should be screaming. Many people go to see the doctor for every little thing because it is free. Old people go three or four times a week just for something to do. Doctors never discourage this abuse of the system because it is more money in their pockets. The system is stretched to the limit to the point of being very risky to see a doctor because you have a great chance of being mis-diagnosed. People who really need treatment have to wait, and receive third rate care under socialized medicine. The only solution that is ever suggested is to pump more money into it. If the party in power ever wanted to streamline or find efficiencies, they would be accused by the oppposition of being heartless and trying to cut health care. If there were ever a serious pandemic which required expensive treatment, the country would go bankrupt. It probably will anyway unless health care costs are brought under control. Hearing about health care all the time makes me sick. Edited September 22, 2007 by Trimdingman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) If husband and wife each pay 40,000 in income tax, total $80,000, then half of that would be $40,000. I am talking ballpark, here but I'm not far off. We don't need any kind of controlled health care. We didn't have it 50 years ago. You just paid. Prices were in line with what people could afford. Now prices are sky high because everybody is paying for someone else. They don't have to worry about collecting from the individual. How much labor is involved for example to remove an appendix? It shouldn't cost more than a couple hundred bucks. Paying $40,000 a year or $800 a WEEK for health care is pretty ridiculous. We are all being gouged and we should be screaming. Many people go to see the doctor for every little thing because it is free. Old people go three or four times a week just for something to do. Doctors never discourage this abuse of the system because it is more money in their pockets. The system is stretched to the limit to the point of being very risky to see a doctor because you have a great chance of being mis-diagnosed. People who really need treatment have to wait, and receive third rate care under socialized medicine. The only solution that is ever suggested is to pump more money into it. If the party in power ever wanted to streamline or find efficiencies, they would be accused by the oppposition of being heartless and trying to cut health care. If there were ever a serious pandemic which required expensive treatment, the country would go bankrupt. It probably will anyway unless health care costs are brought under control. Hearing about health care all the time makes me sick. Once again if you cover those who are of age and capable of working and choose not to then they are a draw that must be covered by our taxes. With a Merit Health Care System more Americans would have coverage than do now, and the taxes we would have to pay would be less than in Canada! Plus it would relieve pressure on business's allowing them to employ anyone who has a legal right to work here, without having to compete with other company's over health care coverage! Lastly if the base coverage is not enough to cover a procedure or a patient wishes to have better care what prevents them from buying supplemental insurance to bridge the gap! Just because this is illegal in Canada doesn't mean that it has to be here! We need to take the good and the bad from countries that have already had bad policy so that we can model our system to avoid some of these problems! Edited September 22, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 What's next? How about public car care? Everyone gets taxed according to their income to fix other people's cars. If I make minimum wage and drive a 1974 Pinto, and you make $150,000 a year and drive a 2008 Town Car, why shouldn't you pay to fix my car? I don't smoke. I don't overeat. I have to pay the bills for people who do. How much is that? I have no way of knowing because I pay as part of a group. I have to trust the people who are in charge of the money not to take too much from me. Do I trust them? I see them taking as much as they can and wanting more and more. Greed is a medical condition. It is a cumpuslive disorder. They have it and instead of seeking treatment, they are taking us all down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 What's next? How about public car care? Everyone gets taxed according to their income to fix other people's cars. If I make minimum wage and drive a 1974 Pinto, and you make $150,000 a year and drive a 2008 Town Car, why shouldn't you pay to fix my car? I don't smoke. I don't overeat. I have to pay the bills for people who do. How much is that? I have no way of knowing because I pay as part of a group. I have to trust the people who are in charge of the money not to take too much from me. Do I trust them? I see them taking as much as they can and wanting more and more. Greed is a medical condition. It is a cumpuslive disorder. They have it and instead of seeking treatment, they are taking us all down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 Once again if you cover those who are of age and capable of working and choose not to then they are a draw that must be covered by our taxes. With a Merit Health Care System more Americans would have coverage than do now, and the taxes we would have to pay would be less than in Canada! Plus it would relieve pressure on business's allowing them to employ anyone who has a legal right to work here, without having to compete with other company's over health care coverage! Lastly if the base coverage is not enough to cover a procedure or a patient wishes to have better care what prevents them from buying supplemental insurance to bridge the gap! Just because this is illegal in Canada doesn't mean that it has to be here! We need to take the good and the bad from countries that have already had bad policy so that we can model our system to avoid some of these problems! Since you like all this socialist stuff, can you help me with my kids college money??? I have a better idea. How about all you who want the government to run your healthcare let them. As far as me and those that don't, leave us out of it and don't take anything from us. I'm quiet capable of doing it myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) Since you like all this socialist stuff, can you help me with my kids college money??? I have a better idea. How about all you who want the government to run your healthcare let them. As far as me and those that don't, leave us out of it and don't take anything from us. I'm quiet capable of doing it myself. listen here smart ass, when you say socialist your trying to demonize me because most socialists believe in income redistribution! I think a business owner should be entitled to the lion share of the money that they have made, at the same time if you hold a job you should be entitled to health care! People who sit around all day don't have to worry about getting hurt, or losing wages on top of medical bills if they get hurt out side of work! Edited September 22, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) Since you like all this socialist stuff, can you help me with my kids college money??? I have a better idea. How about all you who want the government to run your healthcare let them. As far as me and those that don't, leave us out of it and don't take anything from us. I'm quiet capable of doing it myself. Amen brother. Dittos to that. They got us. In Canada, I am gouged for 40 grand a year and I can't do anything about it. I don't want to see any quacks who are probably in partnership with funeral companies. I will live longer as long as I can avoid their clutches. Eliminate social health care so that I can live again as a normal human being. Edited September 22, 2007 by Trimdingman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) If there was no such thing as social health care, then when your kid broke his leg, you would take him to a private clinic, pay a few hundred bucks, and bring your kid home. Under public health care, the government would be billed a minimum of $20,000. If some poor slob can't afford $300, panhandle on the street for a couple of hours. Come on. It is against the hypocratic oath for doctors to refuse to treat you. You would be given time to pay. Quadruple by-pass surgery: Free market price- maybe $7000 Social health care price: $ 300,000+ Edited September 22, 2007 by Trimdingman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 If there was no such thing as social health care, then when your kid broke his leg, you would take him to a private clinic, pay a few hundred bucks, and bring your kid home. Under public health care, the government would be billed a minimum of $20,000. If some poor slob can't afford $300, panhandle on the street for a couple of hours. Come on. It is against the hypocratic oath for doctors to refuse to treat you. You would be given time to pay. It doesn't cost $300 to fix a broken leg, it cost nearly $2,000 when I broke my wrist. It cost over $300.00 to get three stitches in my finger. Second I doubt that the Canadian government would pay $20,000 to set and cast a broken leg. They probably get less then our doctors! Other wise doctors would be moving from the U.S. to Canada to practice medicine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 It doesn't cost $300 to fix a broken leg, it cost nearly $2,000 when I broke my wrist. It cost over $300.00 to get three stitches in my finger. Second I doubt that the Canadian government would pay $20,000 to set and cast a broken leg. They probably get less then our doctors! Other wise doctors would be moving from the U.S. to Canada to practice medicine! That's what you paid. That is not what it cost. It is harder to change an engine in a car than it is to transplant a heart if you know how to do it. If your car does not get a new engine, you will not die. If you do not get a new heart, you will. Think of it as blackmail. That is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 22, 2007 Share Posted September 22, 2007 (edited) That's what you paid. That is not what it cost. It is harder to change an engine in a car than it is to transplant a heart if you know how to do it. If your car does not get a new engine, you will not die. If you do not get a new heart, you will. Think of it as blackmail. That is what it is. That's what we are dealing with now, extortion! My buddy has a chronic problem with his eyes after surgery if takes about another 5 to 6 years before he has to repeat the surgery! The current price for his operation alone is $75,000. $75,000 for an operation that takes a couple of hours is outrageous! The fact is that your government cut out the middle man by eliminating the insurers and pay much less for procedures than our insurers do. I don't understand why you believe that because your health care is substandard because you guys cover everyone in the country that, if we limited our liability to just those who pay in to support the system that we would have the same problems! Having health care would incent lazy people to work! Health care inflation is through the roof in this country and we have to take the necessary steps to control them! Edited September 22, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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