Imawhosure Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 Mr Cap is 100% correct!!!! Let me ask you all something------------->what is wrong with healthcare, the cost, or the delivery system? Politicians are doing little or NOTHING to address the cost, they are instead attacking the delivery system!!!! Now, you might assume it is more SOCIALISTIC to address the cost, as government interference in any cost tends to lend itself to those formerly in charge of the USSR. But let me ask you something again------------------------>how does anyone gain more clients? Well, either they are exceptional at what they do so can charge a premium because of it while gaining clientele, or........are you ready.....are you sure, THEY LOWER COST!!!!!! For the purpose of this debate, let me say that an HMO DOES NOTHING TO LOWER COST. Why? Cause if you aren't paying a percentage, you have no reason to look for a better deal, now do ya. Suppose that you had to pay 5% of your medical overall. Why you would be looking for the best deal just as you look for the best deal when you buy anything, wouldn't you? Healthcare is NOT in the free market, it is a CLOSED MARKET. And guess what!!!! The government wants to keep it closed. They want control so as they can raise taxes at will. They know just like SSI, all they have to do is claim national healthcare is underfunded and we/you/us are going to have to take a cut, and everyone is going to scream like a stuck pig. What few of you seem to realize is----------->YOU are going to foot the bill for the most part, and you will be footing the bill for yourself, your family, and everyone else who doesn't have healthcare now to boot. It is a wonderful idea; this national healthcare scenario. Unfortunately, all wonderful ideas (like one for all, and all for one known as socialism...... welfare....most mass transit.....etc) put forth by the government FAIL. It goes to the human condition, and we see it failing everywhere (along with the samples I have put forth) because people take advantage, and YOU have to pay for it. You think I am exaggerating????? Government intervention has always been a problem, but since LBJs great society push, our total outlay per nations income has risen astronomically. They keep putting in programs, and they cost MONEY; money we don't have, so they run a deficit to put them in along with tax you more. You can point at the Iraq war if ya like, but the slippery slope was greased from LBJ on down to make it ever faster. Now you want to give them another trillion or 2 to deal with, and pay for it to boot. What the hell is a matter with you?!?!?!?!?!?! You now pay over 40% in overall taxes. Illinois is so greedy, they want to change the Cook County tax to 11%. Add that to all the other taxes, and anyone who makes as a family over 50,000 a year will be paying MORE than 50%. (not to mention, you buy a 20,000 car, you are going to pay 2,200 bucks just in taxes) What are you thinking?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! It is not free, (unless you are at the poverty level or below) and instead of demanding they open up COMPETITION, you want the government to STOP competition in healthcare, and set a rate that you will pay in taxes..........even if YOU ARE HEALTHY, lolol. Sounds BASSACKWARDS to me, but then I am not a socialist, and maybe that is where we differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted October 1, 2007 Share Posted October 1, 2007 That's what will happen if Hillary's health care gets enacted. You'll be eaten alive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K0FEI Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 There is over 48,000,000 people in this country with no medical insurance! Actually the figure usually quoted is 47 million, but that is a bit misleading. That is the number that the census bureau came up with by extrapolating a survey where they asked the question "Was there a one day period in the past year when you were not covered by health insurance". It also includes 10 million citizens of other countries and about 20% are eligible for coverage under Medicade or SCHIP (State Childrens Health Insurance Program - the program that they are trying to make cover "children" up to age 25 from families with incomes up to $82,000 per year - also includes illegals). About another 19% are young and chose to forgo insurance and a large number are from families with incomes above $75,000 and chose to self insure. All told the population without health care coverage is about 15,000,000 or 5%. That does not mean they don't get health care. Anyone can go to any emergency room and will always receive the best treatment available anywhere in the world. My point about clinics in Mexico was that if the nationalized health care plan is like the first one proposed by Mrs. Clinton, you will not be able to purchase any non-government approved care in the country at any price. So like the Canadians do now, people will be leaving the country to get care they can't get here. Best Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 I'm living it. I probably get worse health care in Canada than American poor people on Medicaid, and I probably pay double what you pay for the best insurance. If costs were in line with peoples' ability to pay, as they would be under a free market health care system, then hardly anyone would be buying insurance. You have to be a certified doctor to practice medicine. Therefore, there is a monopoly between the medical profession and the insurance companies. Prices are kept so high that everybody needs insurance. The doctors win, and the insurance companies win. Now, the government wants to get its piece of the pie, instead of correcting this situation. It's the same as when they ended prohibition. The government kicked the gangsters out and they took over the business by legalizing booze, and taxing it. This med scam is too good for them to pass up. The insurance companies' days could be numbered. The people will just be trading one bunch of crooks for another, and be paying a lot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 This is one of those words I love. What makes you entitled to anything????? Legislation once it is written into law! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 So Imawhosure what specific changes would you make now to stop health care inflation? Saying deregulating, or opening it up to a free market is a generic answer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 Legislation once it is written into law! That would be unconstitutional legislation my friend. There is alot of this nowadays but nobody cares anymore. This country was founded to protect your god-given or natural rights(whatever you believe in). Let me use one of your far-fetched scenarios. Let's say that every doctor decides they don't want to be a doctor anymore????????? How will you get your ENTITLED healthcare??????????????? Let me guess, you will have the government write legislation to force them to treat you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 So Imawhosure what specific changes would you make now to stop health care inflation? Saying deregulating, or opening it up to a free market is a generic answer! It's not a generic answer. I've said this many times to you but you don't understand. Take away all government regulations. legislation or whatever you want to call it. Get them 100% out of anything to do with it. Let the people dictate what they pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 1. Sometimes when a county increases taxes, it is a way to "segregate" or control growth. 2. Does anyone have an idea on how much net income a doctor, nurse, hospital and insurance company should make in a year? 3. I think I'll try to introduce some completion to the health care system by using my Veterinarian instead of my Family Physician. when I'm sick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 It's not a generic answer. I've said this many times to you but you don't understand. Take away all government regulations. legislation or whatever you want to call it. Get them 100% out of anything to do with it. Let the people dictate what they pay. YES!! Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We are paying a thousand per cent too much for health care. Just think of where the country would be if we had all that money in our pockets. As for the poor, their debt would only be 10% of what it would be now, and if they couldn't afford that, even paying in installments, private charities could pick up what they were short. There is no shortage of truly compassionate people. Unfortunately, there is also no shortage of greed among unscrupulous members of the health care and health care insurance trades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 That would be unconstitutional legislation my friend. There is alot of this nowadays but nobody cares anymore. This country was founded to protect your god-given or natural rights(whatever you believe in). Let me use one of your far-fetched scenarios. Let's say that every doctor decides they don't want to be a doctor anymore????????? How will you get your ENTITLED healthcare??????????????? Let me guess, you will have the government write legislation to force them to treat you. It is not unconstitutional to write in to law what a majority public vote reflects! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 2, 2007 Share Posted October 2, 2007 (edited) It's not a generic answer. I've said this many times to you but you don't understand. Take away all government regulations. legislation or whatever you want to call it. Get them 100% out of anything to do with it. Let the people dictate what they pay. It is generic, because it is not specific enough. What law do you wish to change, how does it affect the industry, and what do you propose to do about it, and how would your change help? You have said it many times and now I'm calling you out, tell us your plan! I'm not saying I agree/disagree with either of you I'm trying to be objective, and you are being defensive to the debate. I assume that is because you have no plan, or don't even know what the hell your talking about. I do understand his/your position on giving the government control of more of my money, but I still want to know specifically what your plan is to reduce the cost of health care and keep control of your money, no generic answers this time? Edited October 2, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imawhosure Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 It is generic, because it is not specific enough. What law do you wish to change, how does it affect the industry, and what do you propose to do about it, and how would your change help? You have said it many times and now I'm calling you out, tell us your plan! I'm not saying I agree/disagree with either of you I'm trying to be objective, and you are being defensive to the debate. I assume that is because you have no plan, or don't even know what the hell your talking about. I do understand his/your position on giving the government control of more of my money, but I still want to know specifically what your plan is to reduce the cost of health care and keep control of your money, no generic answers this time? Let me concentrate and stay on topic this time, lol. Here ya go------------> 1. Insurance companys set the price of what is paid to the doctors for any care given. EXAMPLE------->suppose an operation is performed. The insurance company will pay X. It makes no difference if it takes the doctor 1hr on you, and 5hrs on someone else, they get the same amount of money. (kinda like when Ford tells a mechanic how long something takes, and only pays for a certain time frame for labor) Sooooooooooo, lets suppose the insurance company is actually paying the doctor 5000 dollars in labor. Guess what, he can't lower his price!!!!!!!!! (of course, he can't raise it either) In other words---------------->it gives him no advantage to lower his price to attract more OPERATIONS, since the insurance industry sets the standard. THAT IS RIDICULOUS!!!!!! 2. Did you know that if you have NO insurance and have the same operation, you are charged waaaaaaaaay more? (this is true, I have had relatives live this and seen the bills) But wait!!!!!!! If you agree to pay out of pocket, you can negotiate the bill!!! (this is also true; I know it to be 100% factual for the same reason as my last statement in parentheses) Also guess what!?!?!?!?! If you agree to pay that bill, the cost ends up being waaaaaay lower than what insurance companys charge!!! How can this be?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! It is quite simple really-------->they are being overpaid by insurance companys for the most part, and since they want you to come BACK to them for medical care if you DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE but have the ability to pay, they charge you CORRECTLY. Why would they do this?!?!?!?! Because if you PAY CASH on the barrel head, they know you are NOT stupid and will look for the best deal. Once more, they are not then governed by silly rules given out by the HMO such as---------->you gotta go to such and such a clinic to be covered..........where the clinic gets a cut of the pie. Oh no, they can see you at THEIR office for checkups etc, where THEY get to keep much of the money. 3. Did you know that MANY insurance companys are regional? Why? Because of REGULATION. TRANSLATION---------->Less competition, meaning very close to a nasty word not heard of much any longer known as MONOPOLY!!!!! Now, what do YOU think an insurance company who was allowed to come into your region would do to get people to take one of their policys? GASP!!!!! That's right folks, sell it cheaper!!!! What do you think YOUR insurance company would do to keep ya and the money flowing from leaving?? Double gasp!!! That's right, give you a better deal than the one you threatened to change to!!! If you want a close facimile to number 3. just look at our fuel prices. If you take out California and the high emission control states, wouldn't you think that fuel prices should be flat across the board after taxes are deducted from price? Well, why are they not? Because you CAN'T buy St. Louis gas if they are oversupplied, you can only buy YOUR formulated gas. How DUMB is that!!!!! Someone can buy gas in Illinois and drive to St. Louis using it there, but they can't sell it there cause the formulation is off a little. It is OVER REGULATION that causes excess outlay in most everything when another close region has it cheaper, plain and simple!! This is one reason fuel prices are higher than they should be!!! (thank the EPA, enviro freaks, and local government idiots) A refinery not using all of its capacity because its region has NOT used all its fuel, can NOT sell to another region without a costly reformulation, ergo you are at YOUR refinerys mercy. 4. Now then, if we know that healthcare is a service.......just like any other service, then we also know that if the PRICE IS FIXED by insurance companys and since if YOU HAVE insurance, it makes no difference to you where you go because out of pocket expenses are the same, where is the competition for YOU the healthcare consumer? If you get it for less cost, you are saving the INSURANCE COMPANY money, what an incentive, lol. (and usually the insurance company isn't going to let you do it anyway) It is really silly to be a consumer, and not allow price competition to set the market, isn't it? Now, don't go an extrapolate that to YOUR wages as an arguement, cause it doesn't fit here. Why? Because in the healthcare industry, you get the same operation for the most part, no matter where you go!!!! It is like buying a Ford........not a choice between Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc. If we call an operation or a medical procedure a Ford, and if you were buying a Ford without the A plan, what would you do as a normal consumer? That's right, go from dealer to dealer looking for the best price on that Ford. But with healthcare, that Ford procedure costs the same no matter what dealer you go to, lolol. IT IS FIXED!!!!!! That is what I mean Furious, and I hope you and the rest of my peers understand the examples I have put forth. The government is NOT the solution, they are rather a large part of the problem. Just as with everything the government does, they started out meaning well, (kinda like the tax code) and kept fiddling, fiddling, and fiddling more; regulating the shit out of it.(kinda like the fuel example) The end result is--------------->so much red tape, regulation, complexity, and special interest involvement that it costs way more than it should on the open market. HEALTHCARE is one of the last bastions of pointyheads in this country that have no competition, lol. Ever watch a nurse basically kiss a doctors ass? Now you know why, lol. Next time you go to a doctor, ask him to kindly sit down, then request a PRICE CUT, lol. Try it!!!!! Then remember that there is another clinic, doctor, hospital right down the road. When he says no, ask yourself why he is he so confident that you won't get it cheaper down that road!!!! When you honestly answer that question in your own mind, you will then understand the jist of the arguement that many of us make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K0FEI Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 It is quite simple really-------->they are being overpaid by insurance companys for the most part, and since they want you to come BACK to them for medical care if you DO NOT HAVE INSURANCE but have the ability to pay, they charge you CORRECTLY. Why would they do this?!?!?!?! Because if you PAY CASH on the barrel head, they know you are NOT stupid and will look for the best deal. Once more, they are not then governed by silly rules given out by the HMO such as---------->you gotta go to such and such a clinic to be covered..........where the clinic gets a cut of the pie. Oh no, they can see you at THEIR office for checkups etc, where THEY get to keep much of the money. I think you may have this one backwards. Hospitals and doctors set their prices high because they know they are going to get 10 cents on the dollar from the insurance company. I had a kidney stone. The original hospital bill to the insurance company was over 12,000 dollars (and believe me I would have been willing to pay that much to get out of pain - but thats another story). When the insurance company found out the hospital was "in network" the insurance company told the hospital they would only pay $1200 and that was that. These days we are on a high deductible policy to cover us if, god forbid, something really serious happened, but year in and year out we pay our own medical bills and never reach the deductible. We do, however, get the insurance company price instead of the "list" price and it is often less than 10% of the usual price. So for us the insurance company is sort of like a collective bargaining agent. By the way, if you tell your doctor that you are not insured but you would like their insurance rates they will work with you (at least mine will) and you will pay the same or less than they would get from the insurance company. I sat down and talked with my doctor about the business end of his practice and it pretty much came down to he hated it. He loved medicine but he is not making all that much money and the administrative burden is just overwhelming. He probably spends an hour on paper work and follow up for every hour he spends actually seeing patients. Hospitals are in even worse shape. Some are closing because they are losing too much money. Like I said, I don't think it is insurance companies that make health care expensive. If you look at the cosmetic surgery industry you will find some of the most expensive medicine in the world and almost none of it is covered by insurance. Between the cost of the technology, what insurance companies will pay, the administrative burden of federal and state regulations, and in some specialties like obstetrics the cost of malpractice insurance we are going to see more and more doctors give up their practices and more community hospitals closing. Perhaps the one law I would change to help hold down medical expenses would be to institute a 12 month hunting season on lawyers. Keep well. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 It is not unconstitutional to write in to law what a majority public vote reflects! It's nice how you use this to fit your agenda. Now it's a majority. What happened to the Iraq war????????????? I give you polls saying that a majority disapprove of it but you trash them. Last Nov. the Dems ran on a anti war platform, they got elected, right????? That could of only happened by a majority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 (edited) It's nice how you use this to fit your agenda. Now it's a majority. What happened to the Iraq war????????????? I give you polls saying that a majority disapprove of it but you trash them. Last Nov. the Dems ran on a anti war platform, they got elected, right????? That could of only happened by a majority. Polling is to easily manipulated by the poller, all you have to do decide what you want your poll to reflect and target people that share your prospective! For example If I wanted my poll to reflect that the majority Don't understand, or have the resolve to complete a mission that is detrimental to their future. Then I would ask liberals about Iraq! now a vote is something different it is almost never even close to what polling suggests, polling is a political tool used to manipulate public opinion. It was integral in smearing George Bush, before he started doing the really moronic things he's been up to lately! (attacking the middle class) Edited October 3, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Polling is to easily manipulated by the poller, all you have to do decide what you want your poll to reflect and target people that share your prospective! For example If I wanted my poll to reflect that the majority Don't understand, or have the resolve to complete a mission that is detrimental to their future. Then I would ask liberals about Iraq! now a vote is something different it is almost never even close to what polling suggests, polling is a political tool used to manipulate public opinion. It was integral in smearing George Bush, before he started doing the really moronic things he's been up to lately! (attacking the middle class) This is not right then. Polls said a majority did not want the war(which you said is manipulated), yet votes said they did not want the war either. What is it????????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 What is this attatched thumbnails crap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 (edited) What is this attatched thumbnails crap? Paid advertisements to fund this sight I would bet! It's only been going on for a couple of weeks now! I don't understand what yours is but many are pics of Fords! Edited October 3, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 (edited) This is not right then. Polls said a majority did not want the war(which you said is manipulated), yet votes said they did not want the war either. What is it????????????? It took years of polling and biased media coverage before the republicans started to concede on their position on Bush, But the Republicans by in large still support the effort in Iraq along with many democrats. I don't recall any vote to go to go or not to by the public, just the one from congress and they supported it even though the U.N. didn't! This is a arguement for a different thread! Edited October 3, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 It took years of polling and biased media coverage before the republicans started to concede on their position on Bush, But the Republicans by in large still support the effort in Iraq along with many democrats. I don't recall any vote to go to go or not to by the public, just the one fromcongress and they supported it even though the U.N. didn't! This is a arguement for a different thread! The Congress that was elected by voters that voted on what they said about ending the war. What are you saying now? They voted on a platform of them ending the war, right?? People voted them in, right? Must mean that they want the war ended, right? End result is that they are defying the public, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 The Congress that was elected by voters that voted on what they said about ending the war. What are you saying now? They voted on a platform of them ending the war, right?? People voted them in, right? Must mean that they want the war ended, right? End result is that they are defying the public, right? Are you saying that just the congress's votes always reflect the majority's will just because the majority voted them into office, I think not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 This should make everyone happy! In the GM proposal highlights their is a change in the medical for active employee's. It says that people will be forced out of HMO's and PPO's and they will have to take TCN (traditional care network), and will be allowed 5 doctor visits annually at $25 per visit. What it is not saying is that it only applies to those who live outside of Michigan, and that it is 5 visits per household not per person. It also means that after you reach the cap of 5 visits that the full visit price will be charged to the patient or gardian. Anything above 5 visits is yours to pay 100% If your doctor charges $180, or $200 a visit than that is what you will owe per visit above the cap of 5! I was given this info from a committeeman who is friends with a Pontiac employee who attended the informational meeting to ratify their contract! She said that people where very upset and didn't think that it would be ratified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Are you saying that just the congress's votes always reflect the majority's will just because the majority voted them into office, I think not Do you understand?????? That is what you are saying. It is not unconstitutional to write in to law what a majority public vote reflects! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted October 3, 2007 Share Posted October 3, 2007 Do you understand?????? That is what you are saying. Uh, no. I'm saying that a majority vote by the public is not unconstitutional. How does that imply the relation between what we want versus what our politicians want! Are you O.K.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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