Mich. should share water, N.M. governor says

[Biker16]

Mich. should share water, N.M. governor says

Remarks set off alarms for Great Lakes states

 

October 11, 2007

 

BY TINA LAM

 

FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

 

Environmental groups on Wednesday blasted comments by New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson that northern states with plenty of water should share it with parched states.

 

"It shows we need the strongest possible protection for the Great Lakes, especially when water levels are declining," said Liz Boyd, spokeswoman for Gov. Jennifer Granholm, adding that legislators need to approve a water compact Granholm and other governors signed in 2005, when they saw growing threats to the lakes.

 

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"His comments prove those threats should not be taken lightly," Boyd said.

 

Richardson, also a Democratic presidential candidate, has been campaigning heavily in Nevada hoping for a strong showing in the state's Jan. 9 primary. He told the Las Vegas Sun last week that if elected, he would bring states together to discuss how water-rich northern-tier states could help with shortages in the southwest.

 

"I want a national water policy," Richardson told the paper. "We need a dialogue between states to deal with issues like water conservation, water reuse technology, water delivery and water production. States like Wisconsin are awash in water."

 

That last remark set off alarm bells with environmental groups in the Great Lakes.

 

"It's ridiculous to say that," said Hugh McDiarmid, spokesman for the Michigan Environmental Council. "Until the compact is passed, our water protections are hanging on by a thread."

 

Richardson is a long shot for president, but his comments carry weight as a western governor.

 

"With so many thirsty states with growing populations, it's a wake-up call for us," said Lisa Wozniak, director of the Michigan League of Conservation Voters.

 

Water shortages are a key issue in Nevada, where water could run out by 2010 because the Colorado River is in an 8-year drought.

 

Officials are studying a pipeline to pump water from rural areas to booming Las Vegas and a new $800-million intake valve from Lake Mead.

 

Lake Superior is in a drought, too, hitting an all-time low last month, and all the upper Great Lakes are well below their longtime average levels.

 

Tom Reynolds, spokesman for Richardson's campaign, did not respond to an inquiry about the governor's comments.

 

In 2004, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry told the Free Press that Great Lakes water diversion issues required a "delicate balancing act" to provide for "national needs." A day later, his spokesman took it all back, saying Kerry did not think water should be diverted from the Great Lakes.

 

Contact TINA LAM at 313-222-6421 or tlam@freepress.com.

[Biker16]

over my dead body will great lake water be diverted to feed the boom towns in th deserts.

 

the people of AZ and NM are more than welcome to have our water if they move here. (Sorry move back here)

[Pioneer]

If the western states want more water, here is a good plan because you're not going to get any water from the Great Lakes.

 

Set some nukes off on the fault lines keeping California attached the the continental U.S. Then as California falls off in the the ocean (where it belongs), you can build desalination plants along the Nevada coast.

 

See. I've easily solved TWO problems.

[suv_guy_19]

If the western states want more water, here is a good plan because you're not going to get any water from the Great Lakes.

 

Set some nukes off on the fault lines keeping California attached the the continental U.S. Then as California falls off in the the ocean (where it belongs), you can build desalination plants along the Nevada coast.

 

See. I've easily solved TWO problems.

 

 

Aren't you funny. I've never understood why countries hate to share resources wit outer parts of the same country. We hate it too, and it seems rather selfish to me.

[Pioneer]

Aren't you funny. I've never understood why countries hate to share resources wit outer parts of the same country. We hate it too, and it seems rather selfish to me.

 

Because the West would suck the lakes dry without even batting an eye, and not care. If they don't have the resources to sustain life there, then move.

 

And I wasn't trying to be funny. They want our water, I want California to fall off the continent. If they can make my wish happen, we'll talk about what they want.

[one2gamble]

Aren't you funny. I've never understood why countries hate to share resources wit outer parts of the same country. We hate it too, and it seems rather selfish to me.

 

 

Seriously, it doesnt make any sense. A system can be set up that both protects the viability of the lakes and allows you to share the water with other states, in reality it would probably help your already hurting economies.

 

 

Thats like me saying California should just stop shipping produce/wine to other parts of the country. Grow your own....

[suv_guy_19]

Because the West would suck the lakes dry without even batting an eye, and not care. If they don't have the resources to sustain life there, then move.

 

And I wasn't trying to be funny. They want our water, I want California to fall off the continent. If they can make my wish happen, we'll talk about what they want.

 

 

You know what is really funny, the east - west argument goes the exact opposite way here...

[suv_guy_19]

You know what is really funny, the east - west argument goes the exact opposite way here...

 

 

But your right, it would have to be in set, rationed amounts if it were to work property

[RichardJensen]

"water production"

 

Yeah. I've been to the water factory outside of Madison. They've got these huge tanks of oxygen and hydrogen, and they just kind of mix them together in another huge tank and water comes out.

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, they use the water just down the road at the oxygen and hydrogen factory. Using electrolysis, they break the water apart into its constituent atoms.

 

 

 

Madison is a strange town. Wisconsin is a strange state.

 

And Bill Richardson is a loon.

 

Maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't've built Las Vegas in the first place.

Edited October 15, 2007 by RichardJensen

[Pioneer]

But your right, it would have to be in set, rationed amounts if it were to work property

The Great Lakes water levels are already falling to near record lows without the West leaching off of it.

 

Argue all you want, it ain't gonna happen.

[one2gamble]

Maybe, just maybe, they shouldn't've built Las Vegas in the first place.

 

 

Not a viable argument. Technology exists to disperse populations to regions that wouldn't normally support them. I would rather have some space than be living like rodents in the few areas that can actually be self sustaining.

 

 

There are also areas out west that the environmental crowd(no growth) has essentially stopped any development that would store water and allow the areas to be more self sustaining.

 

The Great Lakes

 

This isnt just about the Great Lakes. Its about shifting national/natural resources from places that have an abundance to places who have a demand/need.

Edited October 15, 2007 by one2gamble

[suv_guy_19]

The Great Lakes water levels are already falling to near record lows without the West leaching off of it.

 

Argue all you want, it ain't gonna happen.

 

 

I'm not arguing, I don't want the water, and I know they are falling since they are our lakes too. come to think of it, that would complicate matters, because it would be an international thing. Have you ever looked at a map of Manitoba...we don't need any water.

Edited October 15, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[RichardJensen]

Oh, and how much of the water in Superior, Huron, Ontario, and Erie belongs to Canada?

 

Seems to me lake Michigan is the only lake that the U.S. could even consider dipping into without consulting Canada, and seeings how all five lakes are, in reality, a single body of water, I don't think even Michigan could be tapped into without Canada raising concerns.

 

 

Not to mention the environmental concerns with taking water far outside of its watershed. There's a big difference between, say, tapping the Missouri River and then dumping the water back into the Missouri watershed, and tapping the Great Lakes watershed for Las Vegas.

[suv_guy_19]

Oh, and how much of the water in Superior, Huron, Ontario, and Erie belongs to Canada?

 

Seems to me lake Michigan is the only lake that the U.S. could even consider dipping into without consulting Canada, and seeings how all five lakes are, in reality, a single body of water, I don't think even Michigan could be tapped into without Canada raising concerns.

Not to mention the environmental concerns with taking water far outside of its watershed. There's a big difference between, say, tapping the Missouri River and then dumping the water back into the Missouri watershed, and tapping the Great Lakes watershed for Las Vegas.

 

 

Hey I just said that in fewer words. I don't think they should tap the lakes because like Pioneer said, the levels are dropping, but the fact does remain that some solution should be found.

Edited October 15, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[Pioneer]

Hey I just said that in fewer words. I don't think they should tap the lakes because like Pioneer said, the levels are dropping, but the fact does remain that some solution should be found.

 

Desalinisation plants, severe water rationing, and common sense as to urban sprawl are the only solutions the West has. Expensive and life changing decisions that nobody in the West wants to make, unless it's the East that has to do them.

[RichardJensen]

I would rather have some space than be living like rodents in the few areas that can actually be self sustaining.

Oh bosh. This planet is not so full of people that we are -forced- to occupy such inhospitable places as the Nevada deserts.

 

The idea a city like Las Vegas should grow as much technological expertise and audacity permits it is as insane as asserting that we would all be better off if we were the size of elephants.

 

The ability to do something is never sufficient justification for doing it.

Edited October 15, 2007 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

severe water rationing

You mean there shouldn't be things like this:

 

 

in a desert?

 

I've never been to Las Vegas, and I hope that I never go. I find things like this disgusting.

[suv_guy_19]

You mean there shouldn't be things like this:

 

 

in a desert?

 

I've never been to Las Vegas, and I hope that I never go. I find things like this disgusting.

 

 

See, theres the solution, they can drink that water .

[wescoent]

Oh bosh. This planet is not so full of people that we are -forced- to occupy such inhospitable places as the Nevada deserts.

 

The idea a city like Las Vegas should grow as much technological expertise and audacity permits it is as insane as asserting that we would all be better off if we were the size of elephants.

 

The ability to do something is never sufficient justification for doing it.

 

Oh, but we can all dream, can't we?

 

We've got TONS of space in the NJ Pine Barrens for the water-parched citizens of Las Vegas to move. Set up some nice casinos in the swamps inland of Atlantic City, and some spiffy skyscrapers to house all the idiots we're importing, and we're good to go.

 

All the retirees have PLENTY of space to move into in Florida, and they've got plenty of water as well.

 

Let the market dictate the price of water. If there isn't enough, raise prices until people either conserve or move out.

 

I've got far crazier ideas than just that. We need to kick genetically-engineered animal and plant development into high gear. Fast growing, high yielding crops so that the Africans have plenty of food. How about giant dinosaur-sized cows and chickens? Or even further than that... super fast growing corn so that ethanol plants can yield 8-10 crops per year?

 

Technology and science is so amazing. I'm convinced that no matter how badly we mess up as a society, science and technology will ALWAYS bail us out, whether it comes to energy, food, or pollution.

[ANTAUS]

Share is a strong word. If someone wants something, you PAY for it. We are also dealing with a water drought here in FL. And already a few water management districts are looking at alternatives for 2025. Even water desailization plants which are costlier, but resolves the issue. They are saying that water, is the new "oil". Without it, you can't grow the cities, increase their tax base, etc.etc. As it is, my county might stop issuing permits by 2013. And we get most of our nasty hard water from the St.Johns River. South FL water district gets there's from Lake Okeechobee, which is much better, and softer, but that lake itself is at a record low of 9ft. from it's usual 15ft. Gee, wonder why theres such a shortage of water all over the U.S....

[Hellcat_F6F]

Thats like me saying California should just stop shipping produce/wine to other parts of the country. Grow your own....

 

WE DO! All the wine I buy is made from grapes grown either in Michigan, on the Lake Michigan shore, or in Ohio, along the lake Erie coast and islands. This area is actually a pretty good wine producing region.

[OAC_Sparky]

The other problem is that the Great Lakes don't belong to just Michigan. They belong to Canada as well. Seeing that the majority of the water in Lake Superior is fed from Mid-Western Canada.

 

Hate to have to build a few dams.....

[OAC_Sparky]

WE DO! All the wine I buy is made from grapes grown either in Michigan, on the Lake Michigan shore, or in Ohio, along the lake Erie coast and islands. This area is actually a pretty good wine producing region.

The Niagara region of NY has plenty of vinyards as well.

[joihan777]

I'm in California. The northern part of the state has lots of water, however we pipe a lot to the Los Angeles basin. It's really southern California that needs a lot of water. As for Las Vegas, haven't a clue. I don't get that place. I've been there 3 times (on business) and I mostly see college kids and a l-o-t of crabby old folks (whom, incidently, bi_ch about not having enough entitlement social security)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

What this topic is about is Richardson talking about nabbing Michigan natural resources, presumably at the cost of Michigan natural resources.

 

That won't fly. :shades:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

But I've been thinking about an idea that may be a win-win solution to our nation's water problems:

 

Modify and/or create water pipelines between state/ geographic regions for the purpose of

stabilizing water reserves between areas. This means that if one part of America is experiencing

too much rainfall resulting in flooding then that excess freshwater could be piped into an area

that has low reserves before that freshwater is lost to the ocean.

 

This method, over time, would slowly build up the freshwater reserves across the entire nation.

It would happen slowly because only excess rainfall would be redirected to the needy area that would

otherwise end up flooding that rainy area. Water could flow south & west to fill up their reserves while

simultaneously preventing/ reducing any flooding in the northern states. And when the south/ west is

experiencing torrential rains, the excess can be piped back up north. And suppose the floodwater is too

great to cache in any one section, well then at least the excess water can be let to sea through multiple

river systems as opposed to overwhelming any one river, reducing property/life loss.

 

This, I think, would work because it never floods all over the US at the same time.

 

This idea is a little similar to a bilge system in a large tanker ship (I think?).

 

What do you guys think?

[Noah Harbinger]

I'm in California. The northern part of the state has lots of water, however we pipe a lot to the Los Angeles basin. It's really southern California that needs a lot of water. As for Las Vegas, haven't a clue. I don't get that place. I've been there 3 times (on business) and I mostly see college kids and a l-o-t of crabby old folks (whom, incidently, bi_ch about not having enough entitlement social security)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

What this topic is about is Richardson talking about nabbing Michigan natural resources, presumably at the cost of Michigan natural resources.

 

That won't fly. :shades:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

But I've been thinking about an idea that may be a win-win solution to our nation's water problems:

 

Modify and/or create water pipelines between state/ geographic regions for the purpose of

stabilizing water reserves between areas. This means that if one part of America is experiencing

too much rainfall resulting in flooding then that excess freshwater could be piped into an area

that has low reserves before that freshwater is lost to the ocean.

 

This method, over time, would slowly build up the freshwater reserves across the entire nation.

It would happen slowly because only excess rainfall would be redirected to the needy area that would

otherwise end up flooding that rainy area. Water could flow south & west to fill up their reserves while

simultaneously preventing/ reducing any flooding in the northern states. And when the south/ west is

experiencing torrential rains, the excess can be piped back up north. And suppose the floodwater is too

great to cache in any one section, well then at least the excess water can be let to sea through multiple

river systems as opposed to overwhelming any one river, reducing property/life loss.

 

This, I think, would work because it never floods all over the US at the same time.

 

This idea is a little similar to a bilge system in a large tanker ship (I think?).

 

What do you guys think?

 

I think the cost of building a nationwide system of aqueducts and storage reservoirs would be too expensive to be worth considering. When we're talking about $25 million dollars per mile (based on a current local water transfer aqueduct project), and maybe 7,000 miles of aqueducts, you're looking at $175 billion, just for the tubes. I can't pretend to be able to estimate how much the expanded network of storage reservoirs would cost.

 

Of course, it would be spread out over maybe 20 years...

 

Southern California is just going to have to build a buttload of desalination plants. If it can get past the coastal commission (whose hearing is set for a month from now), we (San Diego) will have one that can supply water for 100,000 households. It's a start; another 7 and we should be about set for a while.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Noah Harbinger