Ford: Canadian Plants Must Compete

[Local1111]

Article Here

 

Hargrove also said the CAW would not agree to a two-tier wage structure.

 

"That's out of the question," he said, adding that the lower wages and benefits affect quality, productivity and relationships between the union and its membership and between workers and the company.

 

But he said the CAW would be willing to look at other ways to reduce costs, such as work rule changes, or ways plants can raise quality and become more productive.

 

CAW hourly workers at Ford made an average wage of $34 per hour in 2006, compared with $32.38 in the U.S., according to the company.

[OAC_Sparky]

The article doesn't point out that the exchange rate was 20% less in 2006.

[Trimdingman]

What does "time for the split to end" mean? Are you saying that we should go back to the UAW, or are you saying that we are not competitive with the US? (I am assuming that this was posted by a UAW worker at Visteon Local 1111). We are not some kind of charity case. We get what we get because of a combination of factors. We want more. They want to give us less. That is the way it always has been. If we are getting more, maybe we are doing something right. Ford has fired a warning shot across our bow. Are we intimidated? Hell no!

Edited January 10, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Oakville Insider]

If Ford didn't think Canadian plants were competitive, the would have but the Flex somewhere else, and wouldn't be in talks with the government to be restarting the Windsor Engine Plant.

This is all just vaseline to get you ready for what's to come in September.

[Captain723]

If Ford didn't think Canadian plants were competitive, the would have but the Flex somewhere else, and wouldn't be in talks with the government to be restarting the Windsor Engine Plant.

This is all just vaseline to get you ready for what's to come in September.

He is right...you will not agree to 2 tier, but you will be agreeing to entry level wages!!

[GuyfromSTAP]

He is right...you will not agree to 2 tier, but you will be agreeing to entry level wages!!

 

Time will tell.I think theres a difference here between how unions feel.I think concessions are going to be made because we have to being forced by UAW.The difference is I think it will be split upon us instead of selling out future workers.We can give back things such as holidays without affecting pay rate whereas we had a better contract then our US counterparts.I think the UAW created a huge problem in the future by putting such a low pay rate on new hires.It will come back to bite you on the ass sooner or later.Those people arent going to keep your pensions filled up when they are the majority...but the UAW was worrying about the now instead of having forthought.Get back at us in Sept. Captain and we shall see who is

[1520 man]

Time will tell.I think theres a difference here between how unions feel.I think concessions are going to be made because we have to being forced by UAW.The difference is I think it will be split upon us instead of selling out future workers.We can give back things such as holidays without affecting pay rate whereas we had a better contract then our US counterparts.I think the UAW created a huge problem in the future by putting such a low pay rate on new hires.It will come back to bite you on the ass sooner or later.Those people arent going to keep your pensions filled up when they are the majority...but the UAW was worrying about the now instead of having forthought.Get back at us in Sept. Captain and we shall see who is

 

The 2 tier wage system in the U.S. is all smoke and mirrors. They have so many people laid off in there general pool, that even when this UAW contract is over they still won't be paying people lower wages. The UAW is hoping by there next contract that Ford will recover, and they could renegoiate wages back.

[Captain723]

Time will tell.I think theres a difference here between how unions feel.I think concessions are going to be made because we have to being forced by UAW.The difference is I think it will be split upon us instead of selling out future workers.We can give back things such as holidays without affecting pay rate whereas we had a better contract then our US counterparts.I think the UAW created a huge problem in the future by putting such a low pay rate on new hires.It will come back to bite you on the ass sooner or later.Those people arent going to keep your pensions filled up when they are the majority...but the UAW was worrying about the now instead of having forthought.Get back at us in Sept. Captain and we shall see who is

See you in Sept. bro.....there was a reason that they invested in the flex body shops....to bring in more work! Where is the only places we could bring work in from oh yeah, Mexico and Canada. See you soon!

[stapworker]

If two tier wages and concessions ie: wage and benefit cut's will save STAP I would agree to them.

 

Lower wages and benefits would be better than no wages and benefits.

[Len_A]

What does "time for the split to end" mean? Are you saying that we should go back to the UAW, or are you saying that we are not competitive with the US? (I am assuming that this was posted by a UAW worker at Visteon Local 1111). We are not some kind of charity case. We get what we get because of a combination of factors. We want more. They want to give us less. That is the way it always has been. If we are getting more, maybe we are doing something right. Ford has fired a warning shot across our bow. Are we intimidated? Hell no!

Then let me point out that in the 1960's, when the US dollar was a bit higher than the Canadian dollar, and all of you were members of the UAW, the UAW here went on strike to help their Canadian counterparts achieve parity with the USA. Prior to that, your predecessors were paid less than the US UAW members. My dad was at Ford, and if memory serves correct, they went out on strike for a month. Know something about your actual history before commenting. It infuriates me, and ever since the Chrysler loan guarantees even more so, to see my Canadian CAW relatives cop an attitude. The CAW had better pray that the Canadian dollar doesn't move up any higher than it has already. As it has so far, it's wiped out most, if not all, of the cost advantage Canada has enjoyed because of Canada's national health care. That is the only reason you've gotten away with refusing the concessions the UAW has had to swallow. Let the American dollar drop and stay lower for an extended period of time, and the CAW's hard-ass, militant attitude will come back and bite you guys in the ass hard. Keep in mind that thanks to NAFTA and other international trade laws, there's no longer any way to force the automakers to build in Canada, and any drive around Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver shows you guys in Canada are losing as big a percentage of your car buyers to imports and non-union transplants as we are in the USA.

Edited January 12, 2008 by Len_A

[Len_A]

The 2 tier wage system in the U.S. is all smoke and mirrors. They have so many people laid off in there general pool, that even when this UAW contract is over they still won't be paying people lower wages. The UAW is hoping by there next contract that Ford will recover, and they could renegoiate wages back.

Apparently you're not taking into consideration that the higher seniority employees are still being offered buyouts. You're dead wrong - by the end of this four year contract, you'll see any where from one-third to one-half of the hourly workforce on this side of the border being in the lower tier. And it's not just lower wages - it's permanently out of the defined benefit pension plan for those who start in the lower wage tier.

[fordsterling]

Apparently you're not taking into consideration that the higher seniority employees are still being offered buyouts. You're dead wrong - by the end of this four year contract, you'll see any where from one-third to one-half of the hourly workforce on this side of the border being in the lower tier. And it's not just lower wages - it's permanently out of the defined benefit pension plan for those who start in the lower wage tier.

 

 

 

It will never reach one-third or half of the hourly workforce under this current four year aggrement. Up to 20% of the work force may be paid this entry-level wage not including Sterling or Rawsonville in which any new workers will be given the entry level wage and not count towards the 20% cap. So in all honesty the percentage will probably not go above 25% for the life of THIS contract.

[tbldbxorntnap]

See you in Sept. bro.....there was a reason that they invested in the flex body shops....to bring in more work! Where is the only places we could bring work in from oh yeah, Mexico and Canada. See you soon!

Ford invested in new flex body shops to pit plant against plant for concessions for new products just wait and see.

[Captain723]

It will never reach one-third or half of the hourly workforce under this current four year aggrement. Up to 20% of the work force may be paid this entry-level wage not including Sterling or Rawsonville in which any new workers will be given the entry level wage and not count towards the 20% cap. So in all honesty the percentage will probably not go above 25% for the life of THIS contract.

Right on!!!

[Captain723]

Ford invested in new flex body shops to pit plant against plant for concessions for new products just wait and see.

You are right...I am sure that OAP could build the flex or edge and Wayne assembly could build the fusion or lincoln!!

[OAC_Sparky]

... the UAW here went on strike to help their Canadian counterparts achieve parity with the USA. .

Yes, that was true once, but there came a time when the UAW stopped looking out for the Canadian worker. If they had our interests at heart the Union would never have split.

 

While it is not necessarily Ford's fault, Canada's economy and tax base is different, certain concessions that the UAW could roll over on, the Canadians can't -- any more than Ford can approach the UAW and demand a reduction to Mexico-like wages.

 

I'd pay my own health care if I didn't have to pay 40% income tax. Or be able to claim my mortgage interest on my taxes.

 

People bitching about $3 a gallon gas? It's been nearly $4 a gallon for regular for a while here now.

 

14% sales tax on everything you buy. Higher prices based on importing goods that used to be 20% more because of the exchange rate -- but our prices or cost of living hasn't gone down by that at all.

 

I'm not saying this to complain; because there are a lot of benefits to living in Canada -- but I am trying to illustrate that the differences between the two countries are as different in some ways as the comparison between Mexico and the US.

 

And believe me -- you don't want to see the Canadian dollar go any higher. Where do you think you get most of your oil and natural resources from? (Hint, it's not Iraq.) It's not that the Canadian dollar has risen so much as much as the US dollar is in the shitter. So for the Canadian dollar to go higher, that means the US goes deeper into the shitter. They're already using the "R" word -- an even weaker dollar ( and lowered interest rates ) will drive that recession even deeper.

 

So dream all you want about "taking our products"; the reality is that nobody will be buying our products from either country because the US economy will be in the shitter anyways.

 

If two tier wages and concessions ie: wage and benefit cut's will save STAP I would agree to them.

 

Lower wages and benefits would be better than no wages and benefits.

Nothing will save STAP as it exists presently.

 

So while you can chose whatever path you feel is best for you now, remember that those people you leave behind will be the ones you will be depending on when you're retired. And I'm sure that they will remember and vote what they feel is best for them accordingly.

[Len_A]

Yes, that was true once, but there came a time when the UAW stopped looking out for the Canadian worker. If they had our interests at heart the Union would never have split.

 

While it is not necessarily Ford's fault, Canada's economy and tax base is different, certain concessions that the UAW could roll over on, the Canadians can't -- any more than Ford can approach the UAW and demand a reduction to Mexico-like wages.

 

I'd pay my own health care if I didn't have to pay 40% income tax. Or be able to claim my mortgage interest on my taxes.

 

People bitching about $3 a gallon gas? It's been nearly $4 a gallon for regular for a while here now.

 

14% sales tax on everything you buy. Higher prices based on importing goods that used to be 20% more because of the exchange rate -- but our prices or cost of living hasn't gone down by that at all.

 

I'm not saying this to complain; because there are a lot of benefits to living in Canada -- but I am trying to illustrate that the differences between the two countries are as different in some ways as the comparison between Mexico and the US.

 

And believe me -- you don't want to see the Canadian dollar go any higher. Where do you think you get most of your oil and natural resources from? (Hint, it's not Iraq.) It's not that the Canadian dollar has risen so much as much as the US dollar is in the shitter. So for the Canadian dollar to go higher, that means the US goes deeper into the shitter. They're already using the "R" word -- an even weaker dollar ( and lowered interest rates ) will drive that recession even deeper.

 

So dream all you want about "taking our products"; the reality is that nobody will be buying our products from either country because the US economy will be in the shitter anyways.

 

 

Nothing will save STAP as it exists presently.

 

So while you can chose whatever path you feel is best for you now, remember that those people you leave behind will be the ones you will be depending on when you're retired. And I'm sure that they will remember and vote what they feel is best for them accordingly.

You've made several points, but trust me on this - the split of the Canadians, from the UAW, which, if I'm not mistaken, was driven over the edge by the insistence of the U.S. Congress for concessions in exchange for the U.S. federal government guaranteeing Chrysler's bailout loans (essentially cosigning Chrysler's loans), still doesn't sit well with a lot of the older UAW members and retirees. Trust me on that. I have an aunt and uncle that both retired from Chrysler of Canada and GM of Canada respectively, and every once in a while, my UAW Ford Dearborn Stamping retiree father (and my mom) will tell my aunt and uncle off. Sometimes the fireworks are amusing.

 

Some of the more anti-Detroit types I know, living in other areas of the USA (other than southeast Michigan and northern Ohio) consider a USA assembled Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW & Mercedes to be far more "American" than a Canadian assembled GM, Chrysler or Ford, precisely because of what happened with split of the Canadian autoworkers from the UAW. Bailing out Chrysler helped out the Canadian autoworkers, hourly and salaried alike, and the communities these plant are located in, to the same extent that those on this side of the border benefited. A lot of non-Detroiters make a point of asking me what the Canadian government did to bailout Chrysler, and I honestly can't answer them.

 

Your gas prices, and your income taxes, are the result for more government programs that need to be paid for than we have here in the States. You can even see that here between different states. Gas prices here in Detroit are about 20¢ higher per gallon than Dallas, Texas. San Fransisco, California is 20¢ to 30¢ higher per gallon than Detroit. San Fransisco is well known for having more government programs than the Detroit area, and way more than Dallas. According to http://www.sanfrangasprices.com/, regular gas is as high as $3.59 to $4.05 a gallon out there, with prices posted as of the Thursday to Saturday time frame.

Like it or not, the time could come when you guys north of the border may have to stomach some concessions similar to your counterparts here. There are differences between Canada and the USA, but no where near as pronounced as the differences between the USA and Mexico. Our two countries differences, be they what they are, don't justify the ever widening differences between the contracts in the USA and Canada. You guys have as much to lose as we do.

[Trimdingman]

Then let me point out that in the 1960's, when the US dollar was a bit higher than the Canadian dollar, and all of you were members of the UAW, the UAW here went on strike to help their Canadian counterparts achieve parity with the USA. Prior to that, your predecessors were paid less than the US UAW members. My dad was at Ford, and if memory serves correct, they went out on strike for a month. Know something about your actual history before commenting. It infuriates me, and ever since the Chrysler loan guarantees even more so, to see my Canadian CAW relatives cop an attitude. The CAW had better pray that the Canadian dollar doesn't move up any higher than it has already. As it has so far, it's wiped out most, if not all, of the cost advantage Canada has enjoyed because of Canada's national health care. That is the only reason you've gotten away with refusing the concessions the UAW has had to swallow. Let the American dollar drop and stay lower for an extended period of time, and the CAW's hard-ass, militant attitude will come back and bite you guys in the ass hard. Keep in mind that thanks to NAFTA and other international trade laws, there's no longer any way to force the automakers to build in Canada, and any drive around Toronto, Montreal, or Vancouver shows you guys in Canada are losing as big a percentage of your car buyers to imports and non-union transplants as we are in the USA.

 

I belonged to the UAW for 12 years. I had 10 years seniority at Ford in 1984 when the CAW was formed. I was against it, myself. I saw it as a money-grab. The main reasons that American auto makers assemble in Canada is to avoid paying duties, and to create good will in order to sell cars in Canada. The NAFTA agreement is not written in stone, and can be revoked. Southern Ontario is also a great location, close to many markets. A few bucks more or less an hour paid to a handful of autoworkers is not going to be a deal breaker. You need to put things into perspective and stop believing everything that you are told. Ford will stay in Canada, and Canadian Ford workers will not sell out their future brothers and sisters.

 

As for our national health care, the Canadian government can take it and shove it. I don't want it. It costs me too much and it is inferior to US health care. I don't see doctors. I figure that I stand a better chance of having a long life if I avoid them in Canada. Between myself and the wife, we pay over two thousand dollars a month out of our taxes into that crappy system. If you want it, vote for Hillary. Then watch your dollar drop to seventy-five cents.

 

As for trade laws, it was called the Auto Pact. It allowed US car companies to export into Canada and not pay duties if they built equal value of vehicles in Canada. The UN ruled that it violated international trade laws. What was Ford doing in Canada before 1965 when the Auto Pact came into effect? Roughly the same conditions exist to-day as pre-1965. You should do a little historical research before commenting. Before the 1965 Auto Pact, the Oakville Assembly Plant was very innefficient. They were trying to build every car that was to be sold in Canada; many different models on the same line. The workforce was more than triple what it is to-day. They were willing to pay double in labor what it cost in the US in order to avoid paying the duties. Auto workers' wages make up only a small fraction of the total cost of a vehicle. Shipping costs are just as significant. Southern Ontario is about the best location in North America for efficient shipping to the most markets. If Ford, and the other American auto makers were to pull their operations out of Canada, you can kiss NAFTA good-bye, and say hell-o to high duties. It wouldn't be worth it.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Len_A]

I belonged to the UAW for 12 years. I had 10 years seniority at Ford in 1984 when the CAW was formed. I was against it, myself. I saw it as a money-grab. The main reasons that American auto makers assemble in Canada is to avoid paying duties, and to create good will in order to sell cars in Canada. The NAFTA agreement is not written in stone, and can be revoked. Southern Ontario is also a great location, close to many markets. A few bucks more or less an hour paid to a handful of autoworkers is not going to be a deal breaker. You need to put things into perspective and stop believing everything that you are told. Ford will stay in Canada, and Canadian Ford workers will not sell out their future brothers and sisters.

 

As for our national health care, the Canadian government can take it and shove it. I don't want it. It costs me too much and it is inferior to US health care. I don't see doctors. I figure that I stand a better chance of having a long life if I avoid them in Canada. Between myself and the wife, we pay over two thousand dollars a month out of our taxes into that crappy system. If you want it, vote for Hillary. Then watch your dollar drop to seventy-five cents.

 

As for trade laws, it was called the Auto Pact. It allowed US car companies to export into Canada and not pay duties if they built equal value of vehicles in Canada. The UN ruled that it violated international trade laws. What was Ford doing in Canada before 1965 when the Auto Pact came into effect? Roughly the same conditions exist to-day as pre-1965. You should do a little historical research before commenting. Before the 1965 Auto Pact, the Oakville Assembly Plant was very innefficient. They were trying to build every car that was to be sold in Canada; many different models on the same line. The workforce was more than triple what it is to-day. They were willing to pay double in labor what it cost in the US in order to avoid paying the duties. Auto workers' wages make up only a small fraction of the total cost of a vehicle. Shipping costs are just as significant. Southern Ontario is about the best location in North America for efficient shipping to the most markets. If Ford, and the other American auto makers were to pull their operations out of Canada, you can kiss NAFTA good-bye, and say hell-o to high duties. It wouldn't be worth it.

Good points - first person who actually remembers the split.

 

I never said I knew everything going on in Canada - if you were with Ford since 1972, then you have a few years on me. Be that as it may, you were being paid about the same as your American counterparts because the the mid-1960's strike for wage parity.

 

Thanks for pointing out the details on the 1965 Auto Pact - my point remains the same. No law that forces Canadian production, and I could be mistaken, but since NAFTA started phasing out duties in 1998? Plus the 1988 CFTA began phasing out duties between Canada and the United States(see, I do research as well) The Big 3 (Big 2.5 and shrinking?) don't have to move all of production. Just keep whipsawing Canadian operations against American operations. No Auto Pact and provisions in NAFTA liberalizing trade make it more difficult with a rising Canadian dollar to continue digging your heels in on concessions and being competitive with the plants on this side of the border. Free trade laws help create the perfect whipsawing conditions, because of fewer restrictions. And don't think for one second the pendulum won't eventually swing back in Canada's favor. Eventually it will. Just "eventually" isn't now. Now all the conditions are working against you, and the CAW's intransigent militancy on concessions, especially Hargrove's, don't lend themselves to the current set of circumstances.

[goldfinger4]

Now all the conditions are working against you, and the CAW's intransigent militancy on concessions, especially Hargrove's, don't lend themselves to the current set of circumstances.

 

The public posturing from the CAW about concessions is just that. You don't negotiate in the media.

In order to compete for new work for Windsor they have agreed to new work rules that will make us more or at least just as competitive as the UAW.

Of course they won't kick in with no new engine. The province is on board, the CAW came to the table in a big way, we just need the Feds to come in....PLEASE!

[Trimdingman]

Good points - first person who actually remembers the split.

 

I never said I knew everything going on in Canada - if you were with Ford since 1972, then you have a few years on me. Be that as it may, you were being paid about the same as your American counterparts because the the mid-1960's strike for wage parity.

 

Thanks for pointing out the details on the 1965 Auto Pact - my point remains the same. No law that forces Canadian production, and I could be mistaken, but since NAFTA started phasing out duties in 1998? Plus the 1988 CFTA began phasing out duties between Canada and the United States(see, I do research as well) The Big 3 (Big 2.5 and shrinking?) don't have to move all of production. Just keep whipsawing Canadian operations against American operations. No Auto Pact and provisions in NAFTA liberalizing trade make it more difficult with a rising Canadian dollar to continue digging your heels in on concessions and being competitive with the plants on this side of the border. Free trade laws help create the perfect whipsawing conditions, because of fewer restrictions. And don't think for one second the pendulum won't eventually swing back in Canada's favor. Eventually it will. Just "eventually" isn't now. Now all the conditions are working against you, and the CAW's intransigent militancy on concessions, especially Hargrove's, don't lend themselves to the current set of circumstances.

 

I was in the UAW for 12 years, 10 with Ford, and 2 with another company. I believe that the UAW still has locals in Canada. You should be cheering for us to fight concessions. It puts you in a more competitive position. This anti-autoworker frenzy over the last few years is political. The car companies are putting pressure on the government to enact laws to restrict Asian imports the way the Asians restrict us. They are using us as the pawns. High wages for auto workers has never been an issue before. If you break down the cost of a car, labor is in the low single digits of percentage of total cost. The general public probably believes that it is somewhwere around 25%. That is the impression that the media is trying to convey. Who pays the media? Well, they get most of their revenue from advertising. Auto workers are the most efficient workers in the world. They earn their money. They also form a large voting block if you count spin-off jobs as well. I agree that we need to do something about the unfair auto trade, but I wish that they would find another way to do it. People are so easily wound up these days. Put an idea into their heads and they turn into a herd. The TV is the gospel. Whenever a new idea becomes fashionable and is preached over and over via the media, you can be 99% sure that it is bull. Global warming comes to mind. The reason they do it is because it works. It doesn't work with me. I don't believe in religion. I see media brainwashing as the same thing as religion. I wish that more people would be like me and wake up.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Pioneer]

If Ford didn't think Canadian plants were competitive, the would have but the Flex somewhere else

 

They still can. Never say never. OAP's plans were well in the works before the Loonie and Dollar became equal. It wouldn't be that hard to tool another plant up to run your products. After all, Ford NA only utilises about 75% of their capacity.

[Trimdingman]

They still can. Never say never. OAP's plans were well in the works before the Loonie and Dollar became equal. It wouldn't be that hard to tool another plant up to run your products. After all, Ford NA only utilises about 75% of their capacity.

 

 

We have already built some Flex. It takes over a year to tool a plant for a new platform. Hundreds of millions have already been spent. The complexity of bringing a new product into production boggles the mind. When its over, there is a huge sigh of relief. It is about more than dollars and cents. It is like a living thing that you are bringing into the world. It is going to be our baby.

Edited January 13, 2008 by Trimdingman

[Pioneer]

It is going to be our baby.

 

But, if Buzz doesn't deal, who says there will be another product to replace it?

[OAC_Sparky]

But, if Buzz doesn't deal, who says there will be another product to replace it?

What exactly is there to deal? I'd like your thoughts.

 

VEBA? Ford "prepaid" the UAW benefits by putting into the trust. It's not like the benefits were dropped outright. Don't get sucked into thinking that Ford saved boatloads of money this contract by shoving the responsibility on the UAW. All they did was lump-sum it ahead of time. Our benefits and "legacy" costs are still nowhere near the UAWs when you factor in the lump sum. While the benefits are technically "off the books" now, will take years before any true real-life savings will be realized by the company. It would be naive to think otherwise.

 

The main thing that hurts the CAW right now is the exchange rate. And that is (1) only been a problem for less than a year/year-and-a-half and (2) is less of a disparity job-for-job than most people think. Because (to point 1) the exchange rate can easily go back the other way quickly, and (2) if you think that Ford is going to spend 20 million dollars to move tooling to save a few million in a likely temporary wage disparity, then Ford deserves to be out of business.

 

So again, what is there to bargain away? Threats of withholding product doesn't work. The concessions that the UAW eagerly took up the ass was supposed to be in exchange for the promise that new product was to go to them instead of anywhere else. Would be kinda funny if the UAW sold out its members for promises Ford didn't keep, wouldn't it? Ford can't promise work to everyone -- there isn't enough to go around.

 

So the only point that can be really moved on is work practices, which we've already done before the Edge arrived here. So don't expect too much gain here.

 

But I'll tell you one thing. Ford has its hand out looking for money from the Canadian government to kick in money to reopen Essex Engine. I'm pretty sure that Ottawa will realize that unless they feel they will be getting a return on investment by tax-paying workers, they won't be making any contribution. So Ford should be very careful about plans of demanding wage rollbacks if they expect the government cooperation they've become accustomed to.