Clinton wants to garnish wages to force you into socialized healthcare

[ebritt]

Its easy....take away the jobs (punish employers), take away the free medical, and take away the food stamps and welfare.......they will go home on their own.

[dante hicks]

Fighting illegal immigration is just like the war on drugs. Trying to cut off the supply is a losing battle -- to reduce illegal immigration, you need to reduce the demand for it. There are two parties -- the immigrant looking for a better life and the employer looking to exploit undocumented workers. Punish the ones who are actually doing something wrong and you will reduce the amount of illegal immigration.

[RaZor]

I really cannot imagine why so many people think that it is necessary for us to round them up and then pay to deport them. All that one needs to do is consider human nature AND their (illegals) desire to remain here in the U.S.

 

All that it would take is to make continuous announcements via the media that there will be a future date (Oct 31,2008 or Dec 31, 2008, or whatever) that will be the cut-off date. Any undocumented person found in this country after that date, will, in fact, automatically be deported and they will not be allowed to re-enter legally for a minimum of ten/fifteen/twenty years(in other words -blacklisted for legal entry). Those that leave BEFORE that date, can then apply for legal entry (like everyone else) from their home country.

 

That would give everyone of them plenty of time to put their affairs in order and to leave of their own volition. Do you actually believe that there would not be an very quick exodus? Of course, there would be. First of all, the longer they took to 'go-home', the farther back in the line they would be in the legal application process - to re-enter legally. Of course, if you add to the announcement that employers will be severely sanctioned AND fined (automatic/no excuses accepted/zero tolerance), that would also dry up the reason that they are here - the jobs.

 

Of course, the Feds would have to make sure to let the Mexican (and all other) governments know that if they impede the stampede, foreign aid to them, future imports policies, and other financial ramifications will be negatively impacted, if they fail to accept any of the illegals back.

 

Anyone that thinks that they wouldn’t leave very quickly (including those that have purchased property and even businesses) just do not know human nature.

 

A guess worker program? Sure as long as they get an ID card and pass pre-screening (up to certain limitations). That card would have to be one that could not be counterfeited and anyone that does so would receive automatic/zero-tolerance heavy fines and automatic prison terms. Again, think human nature (and greed). The reason companies want temp workers is because they do not want to have to be responsible for any ancillary cost for them being here (and to pay the absolute lowest cost of their labor).

 

Any anyone (company, individual, local government, etc) that hires them must pay into a non-profit (make it a private enterprise if necessary) that becomes a self-insured health, welfare, education fund that is responsible for all of those costs. If you don't understand self-insured funds, do a little research. That ID card would have a memory strip on the back that contains all information regarding the individual and can be swiped (just like a credit card) if they, say, go to a hospital emergency room for treatment. The charges automatically go to the fund that is responsible for the temporary workers. All of those costs are borne by all of the employers than employ temp foreign workers (through the self-insured fund).

 

My guess is that this type of a program would remove many, if not most, of the reasons for companies that want temp foreign workers. They would have to pay reasonable wages for the work that they want done. Tie this to a universal health care program (that requires anyone that is not working, must be employed - with exceptions for those that have unemployable circumstances, ie., health conditions etc) for American citizens, and many of those that are not currently working . . . would have to go to work . . . and there would be jobs available. Use some of those billions of tax dollars saved for NOT paying for illegal's health/welfare costs . . . to train/educate American citizens that do not work, or are under-employed because of skills/educational level/etc.

 

In short, those who benefit from the guest workers should pay all costs that become necessary for their being here – NOT THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER. Make it a comprehensive program and we would not have to pay to deport them, and if temp foreign workers are still necessary, then let those that 'need' them . . . pay all of the costs associated for them being here. Again, I would suspect that would diminish the desire for the need for them . . . and at the same time, assist in our working toward the goal of having FULL employment of all Americans.

 

You'd be surprised in the savings to the American tax-payer/government, if we just did the above. Then we could start in fixing our infra-structure so that you do not need to be concerned that every bridge that you cross (whilst driving) is going to collapse (like the one in Minn). Or, that our electrical grid is going to fry one of these days and we are plunged into darkness for months at a time.

 

An amnesty program like Reagan did in 1986 just encourages more of them to come with the thoughts that all they have to do is remain for 5 years (or whatever) and they can stay (and go to the head of the line). Wrong!!!!

[matthewq4b]

Its easy....take away the jobs (punish employers), take away the free medical, and take away the food stamps and welfare.......they will go home on their own.

 

 

Bingo that is the awnswer right there.

 

What do think they do here? Exactly that. that is why we do not have a large illegal issue. Also the Universal health care weeds them out. Most poeple have to go to the doctor eventually any how. Go to doctor no healthcare number. Questions are asked why you do not have one. '

 

Knowingly employ Illegals and you risk loosing your buinsess and face massive fines. As revenue Canada treats it just like tax evasion. Cause that is exactly what it is.

 

Again no legal documantation for being in the country you get no assistance what so ever. Go on welfare while waiting for citizenship and this is taken in to account when your applicaton comes up for revue.

 

The U.S has the tools in place to curb it. They just choose not too. I'm nt trying to pick a fight here but it is more just an observation. It seems the U.S is doing this on purpose. The U.S seems to have always had an under class to do the low paying or shit jobs.

 

Individuals on the fringes of society.

 

Again just an observation.

 

 

Matthew

Edited February 11, 2008 by matthewq4b

[dante hicks]

The U.S has the tools in place to curb it. They just choose not too. I'm nt trying to pick a fight here but it is more just an observation. It seems the U.S is doing this on purpose. The U.S seems to have always had an under class to do the low paying or shit jobs.

 

Individuals on the fringes of society.

 

Without a doubt. The people who benefit from exploitation are those who have power. If we actually got rid of undocumented labor, the upper middle class would become poorer (paying more for construction, agriculture, etc.). It's far easier to blame Mexicans than it is to make the sacrifices necessary to secure our borders.

[Furious1Auto]

Its easy....take away the jobs (punish employers), take away the free medical, and take away the food stamps and welfare.......they will go home on their own.

That and ending birthright citizenship are all a part of Ron Pauls political platform, but he is being cast out by the media!

[LincolnFan]

That and ending birthright citizenship are all a part of Ron Pauls political platform, but he is being cast out by the media!

 

Didn't he drop out of the race yesterday? He's about the only sane presidental candidate, the rest are morons imo.

[suv_guy_19]

Didn't he drop out of the race yesterday? He's about the only insane presidental candidate, the rest are morons imo.

[CarShark]

Not a big fan, suv_guy? I just think he's the Republican equivalent of Ralph Nader.

[suv_guy_19]

Not a big fan, suv_guy? I just think he's the Republican equivalent of Ralph Nader.

 

 

I'm not really a fringe candidate guy. I like to be realistic.

[Furious1Auto]

I'm not really a fringe candidate guy. I like to be realistic.

So you let the media deside for you, Huckabee has a simular platform and probably a better chance, but maybe it is better that you let other decide for you without looking at their records and/or their positions. I watched enough of the debates to know who really wants to fix what is wrong in this country, and who prefers the unsistainable status quo!

[suv_guy_19]

So you let the media deside for you, Huckabee has a simular platform and probably a better chance, but maybe it is better that you let other decide for you without looking at their records and/or their positions. I watched enough of the debates to know who really wants to fix what is wrong in this country, and who prefers the unsistainable status quo!

 

 

I'm also centrist and so not very conservative. To me the ideas he has seem outrageous.

[Furious1Auto]

I'm also centrist and so not very conservative. To me the ideas he has seem outrageous.

Specifically which policies?

[suv_guy_19]

Specifically which policies?

 

 

Well you name me some of the points you like and I'll tell you what I think. I can't remember them at the moment.

[Furious1Auto]

Well you name me some of the points you like and I'll tell you what I think. I can't remember them at the moment.

See, like many because of the media blackout of these two candidates ( Ron Paul and Mike Huckabee) you have no idea what they want to do! So I will tell you he wants to remove all government poverty entitlements as a means of eliminating incentive for illegals to enter this country illegally, he wants to eliminate the IRS and replace it with additional excise tax that the Rich cannot skate on, while the middle class are left to finance our government alone! He also wants to draw down ande eventuallly eliminate out free trade agreements to bring work back to the U.S. No more ilegals to perform our work here, and no more incentive to corporations to outsource work just to import to the U.S. for sale. This means we get to work again as we once did! Also we don't have to fit the bill for illegals who collect social services and welfare!

Edited February 12, 2008 by Furious1Auto

[suv_guy_19]

See, like many because of the media blackout of these two candidates you have no idea what he wants to do! So I will tell you he wants to remove all government poverty entitlements as a means of eliminating incentive for illegals to enter this country illegally, he wants to eliminate the IRS and replace it with additional excise tax that the Rich cannot skate on, while the middle class are left to finance our government alone! He also wants to draw down ande eventuallly eliminate out free trade agreements to bring work back to the U.S. No more ilegals to perform our work here, and no more incentive to corporations to outsource work just to import to the U.S. for sale. This means we get to work again as we once did! Also we don't have to fit the bill for illegals who collect social services and welfare!

 

 

I just read his platform. It didn't change my mind.

 

1. End of food regulation. Very bad, might as well move to China.

2. Getting out of Iraq. Very bad. So many people make this mistake. You went in there, you can't just abandon the people of Iraq now.

3. Eliminating the right for the state to seize property. Very bad. There goes all forward progress. Want a new road? Too bad, can't have it.

4. Eliminating the IRS. Well, maybe most people don't like it, but bad. Possibly a restructure, but there needs to be a central tax collection agency.

5. Backing out of free trade and international organizations. Very bad. The US will be looked at even worse than it is now. You would also be unable to sway influence and things would be done without any US input.

6. Lower taxes. The last thing the US needs right now. The government is in debt so far its drowning.

7. Health Care. it seems his ideas will improve little. The tax deduction is good, but why should he need it, how would it work? Theres supposed to be no more IRS. No central tax agency. Who will figure all of this out?

8. Eliminating Government support of new energy sources. Well, there goes all new startups.

9. Securing the border. Oh goody, there goes all my trips down south. You already feel like a criminal when your crossing from one of the safest countries in the world to the other safest country in the world. Go ahead, secure the southern border, but leave us alone already.

10. End of Government Regulation of Education. That is just dumb.

 

 

I could go on and on.

[Furious1Auto]

I don't know where to start!

I just read his platform. It didn't change my mind.

 

1. End of food regulation. Very bad, might as well move to China.

I don'y know what you mean by that if we pulled out of the trade agreements than you would be buying food produced in the U.S.

2. Getting out of Iraq. Very bad. So many people make this mistake. You went in there, you can't just abandon the people of Iraq now.

I'm with you on that and that's why I was bashing him initially, Huckabee opposes this position, but now that their are signs of stability in Iraq and we are going to begin drawing down the troops it is no longer a reason to disqualify him as a candidate, unless you wish to invade Iran also!

3. Eliminating the right for the state to seize property. Very bad. There goes all forward progress. Want a new road? Too bad, can't have it.

So you think it is O.K. for the fedral, state, and local government to seize property that you have been paying for, for years to build a NAFTA super highway or anything else that pleases their fancy. In the next town over from mine the city used "eminate domain" to seize a strip mall to build a boat launch, because of the simple fact that the owner would not settle for the reduced price the city offered. That's theivery!

4. Eliminating the IRS. Well, maybe most people don't like it, but bad. Possibly a restructure, but there needs to be a central tax collection agency.

Why when it would be replaced by excise tax that cannot be avoided by tax write offs, this means everyone will pay their fair share and the rich with crafty accountants would not skate leaving the middle class to fund our government with higher %'s of their income!

I could go on and on.

 

5. Backing out of free trade and international organizations. Very bad. The US will be looked at even worse than it is now. You would also be unable to sway influence and things would be done without any US input.

This is the source of half of the job loss in this country, We have more natural resources than any other country on earth and we were only dependant on oil in te past. Now we are dependant on everything we buy. look at the China stamp on your tools and you will see what I mean!

6. Lower taxes. The last thing the US needs right now. The government is in debt so far its drowning.

7. Health Care. it seems his ideas will improve little. The tax deduction is good, but why should he need it, how would it work? Theres supposed to be no more IRS. No central tax agency. Who will figure all of this out?

Uh the debt is coming from the fact we are not producing anything anymore. If we were the ones producing, we would go back to being a lending nation and not a borrowing nation!

8. Eliminating Government support of new energy sources. Well, there goes all new startups.

I can't argue that.

9. Securing the border. Oh goody, there goes all my trips down south. You already feel like a criminal when your crossing from one of the safest countries in the world to the other safest country in the world. Go ahead, secure the southern border, but leave us alone already.

How about stopping the traffic of illegals so that we can keep them from displacing Americans who are capable of doing the same work! I suppose that going on vacation is more important than being able to keep a job with sufficiant income to finance the trips!

[suv_guy_19]

I don't know where to start!

I don'y know what you mean by that if we pulled out of the trade agreements than you would be buying food produced in the U.S.

 

I'd rather eat food produced in Canada :P lol.

 

I'm with you on that and that's why I was bashing him initially, Huckabee opposes this position, but now that their are signs of stability in Iraq and we are going to begin drawing down the troops it is no longer a reason to disqualify him as a candidate, unless you wish to invade Iran also!

 

IMO, now is not the time to draw down. The troop level has to remain for now in order to keep the stability.

So you think it is O.K. for the fedral, state, and local government to seize property that you have been paying for, for years to build a NAFTA super highway or anything else that pleases their fancy. In the next town over from mine the city used "eminate domain" to seize a strip mall to build a boat launch, because of the simple fact that the owner would not settle for the reduced price the city offered. That's theivery!

 

It is very important for the government to be able to do so. in the majority of cases people are given more than fail value for their property.

 

Why when it would be replaced by excise tax that cannot be avoided by tax write offs, this means everyone will pay their fair share and the rich with crafty accountants would not skate leaving the middle class to fund our government with higher %'s of their income!

I could go on and on.

 

You still need some type of agency to monitory the taxes and rebates. Its not as simple as he makes it sound.

 

This is the source of half of the job loss in this country, We have more natural resources than any other country on earth and we were only dependant on oil in te past. Now we are dependant on everything we buy. look at the China stamp on your tools and you will see what I mean! Uh the debt is coming from the fact we are not producing anything anymore. If we were the ones producing, we would go back to being a lending nation and not a borrowing nation!I can't argue that. How about stopping the traffic of illegals so that we can keep them from displacing Americans who are capable of doing the same work! I suppose that going on vacation is more important than being able to keep a job with sufficiant income to finance the trips!

 

So now your saying the tourism industry isn't important? The US always points the finger and too often they point it north. Terrorism, drugs, we get blamed. Then our TV networks do investigations that prove them wrong.

 

You do not have more resources than countries such as Russia and Canada. You are still producing, there has simply been a shift. You need to find your niche in the world. The US cannot pull out of the global market now. They should not pull out of international organization.

[Furious1Auto]

I'd rather eat food produced in Canada :P lol.

IMO, now is not the time to draw down. The troop level has to remain for now in order to keep the stability.

It is very important for the government to be able to do so. in the majority of cases people are given more than fail value for their property.

You still need some type of agency to monitory the taxes and rebates. Its not as simple as he makes it sound.

So now your saying the tourism industry isn't important? The US always points the finger and too often they point it north. Terrorism, drugs, we get blamed. Then our TV networks do investigations that prove them wrong.

 

You do not have more resources than countries such as Russia and Canada. You are still producing, there has simply been a shift. You need to find your niche in the world. The US cannot pull out of the global market now. They should not pull out of international organization.

I disagree with every point except your perception of Iraq, but we anly need enough troops to keep stability. It is strange you are Canadian and still support the Effort in Iraq, I thought you guys were all against it! And on the IRS, when their is no income tax you don't need the number of agents they currently employ to track sales tax!

Edited February 12, 2008 by Furious1Auto

[Edstock]

http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2008/02...nding/#more-141

 

Worth the read. Pretty much covers all the options. Outline below.

 

"History shows the difficulty of predicting the short-term path of economic or political events. However, we can often see the medium-term with greater clarity. In January 1942 none could forecast the events of the next 44 months, but it did not take an expert to see that the US would defeat Japan. So it is with the current economic down cycle in America.

 

This series describes (see the list at the end) how we have begun to reduce the massive debts accumulated over the past two generations. As I said here, there are only four ways to get rid of one’s excess debt (that, debt that cannot be repaid):

 

1. Growth: given time and rapid wage growth, the debt burden becomes manageable. We pay it off ever more easily as incomes grow. That was the dream solution to America’s high levels of household debt and large long-term government obligations. It burst in 2000, and will not return in time to help us.

 

2. Inflation, reducing the real weight of our debt. This requires two things. First, real growth in wages (no signs of this). Second, either the cooperation or blindness of bond investors — they must either accept negative real after-tax yields, or remain oblivious to rising inflation. The consequences are severe if our creditors (domestic and foreign) rebel.

 

3. Debt can burn off the hard way as debtors default on their loans. Both recessions and declining home prices drive defaults (involuntary and voluntary, respectively). This is equivalent of surgery without anesthesia, resulting in bankruptcies, homelessness, decaying neighborhoods, and bank failures.

 

4. Socialization of the debt. The government can spread the burden of debt, in many different ways (that so many of our creditors are foreigners makes this more attractive)."

[suv_guy_19]

I disagree with every point except your percetion of Iraq, but we anly need enough troops to keep stability. It is strange you are Canadian and still support the Effort in Iraq, I thought you guys were all against it! And on the IRS, when their is no income tax you don't need the number of agents they currently employ to track sales tax!

 

 

On the point of Iraq, I am against the war. The things is that you can't just leave once once you start. Now that your there you have to finish the job.

 

 

On the second point, he also talks about tax deductions for things such as health expenses. There has to be someone to monitor and distribute that.

[RaZor]

Yes, he seems to talk out both sides of his mouth (tax deductions for health expenses) with FairTax and abolishing the IRS, what would the tax deduction be from then? And he wants to make Bush’s tax cuts permanent? Which one is he going to do (if elected)? FairTax or income tax?

 

From his website: “Am I running for president to shut down the federal government? Not exactly. But I am running to completely eliminate all federal income and payroll taxes. And do I mean all - personal federal, corporate federal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment.” Considering that one of the biggest segments of American citizens is Baby Boomers and already retired people (that all paid into Soc Sec & Medicare all of their lives) . . . how is he going to deal with this? Just cut it off? Not a word that I could see. Personally, I do not think that he could ever get elected in a general election.

 

Does Huckabee actually think that the IRS will be abolished/closed down? I don’t think so. First of all compliance will still be a huge problem. First of all, according to what I’ve seen over the 8 – 10 years that this Fair Tax has been proposed, it would have to be a “retail” type of tax on everything, excepting possibly food (unprepared), which also would include all services.

 

From what I have seen, and it makes very good sense, is that many say a black market would develop overnight, especially in the service sector.

 

For example, under the FairTax, every time you purchase a service, you would probably get two prices - one you can pay with a check or credit card that includes the FairTax, and one you can pay in cash and save 23 percent.

 

There won’t be any audits of income of businesses etc, since Huckabee says the IRS will be abolished, right? I see that massive FairTax collection evasion is inevitable and just about guaranteed and probably would end up like the Prohibition era. . . a total failure leading to more and more crime and more and more agents (costs) than even now under the current system.

[Roadrunner]

Furious1Auto: "Why when it would be replaced by excise tax that cannot be avoided by tax write offs, this means everyone will pay their fair share and the rich with crafty accountants would not skate leaving the middle class to fund our government with higher %'s of their income!"

 

 

First, you seem to paint all rich people as devious, crafty, unfairly anointed with white collar jobs, ripping off the general populous, or lastly out to get you personally.

 

You sincerely have hatred issues, I think.

 

Second, see this:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/0...e.ap/index.html

 

If you squeeze the upper middle classes, they won't buy Ford, they'll buy used. Used doesn't mean anything to Ford Motor Company but it means everything to -your- job and income.

Edited February 13, 2008 by Roadrunner

[Furious1Auto]

From his website: “Am I running for president to shut down the federal government? Not exactly. But I am running to completely eliminate all federal income and payroll taxes. And do I mean all - personal federal, corporate federal, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, self-employment.” Considering that one of the biggest segments of American citizens is Baby Boomers and already retired people (that all paid into Soc Sec & Medicare all of their lives) . . . how is he going to deal with this? Just cut it off? Not a word that I could see. Personally, I do not think that he could ever get elected in a general election.

What you fail to realize is that social security is a benefit I pay into for me, but the way it is ran now that they have squandered the funds is that the working pay for the retired. Also the fund will no longer be solvent in it's current form for much more than a decade. The day I can no longer get what I have paid in to recieve, I will withdraw from the program and those baby boomers will be cut off anyway! You don't really think that I am going to continue to allow deductions from my check for a benefit I will never recieve do you, and don't think I can't stop the withholding!

Furious1Auto: "Why when it would be replaced by excise tax that cannot be avoided by tax write offs, this means everyone will pay their fair share and the rich with crafty accountants would not skate leaving the middle class to fund our government with higher %'s of their income!"

First, you seem to paint all rich people as devious, crafty, unfairly anointed with white collar jobs, ripping off the general populous, or lastly out to get you personally.

 

You sincerely have hatred issues, I think.

 

Second, see this:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/0...e.ap/index.html

 

If you squeeze the upper middle classes, they won't buy Ford, they'll buy used. Used doesn't mean anything to Ford Motor Company but it means everything to -your- job and income.

Lets not spin the issue here, I do have issues but a perception of the status quo is not one. I see exactly what happens. Wealthy in many cases because of write offs pay little or nothing by way of % of their income! Me on the other hand, I have to pay nearly 30% annually. Now if their was no income tax than I would only pay when I buy something, sounds like a good way to maintain a savings and investment account to me!

Edited February 13, 2008 by Furious1Auto

[Hemiman]

The US cannot pull out of the global market now. They should not pull out of international organization.

 

 

I don't think you have to worry about that.

 

The "American Union" (Canada, United States, & Mexico) is less than ten years away. This will bring with it a shift to a common currency, (The "Amero"?) and a loss of sovereignty for all three countries. This is being engineered right now. Each country has 3 cabinet level members assigned to making this happen.

 

While this is VERY troubleing to U.S. folks like myself, it is even more-so to my Canadian friends. The end result will have Canada looking more like the U.S. than the other way around.

 

The real problem is that this is all being done behind closed doors. And it is bieng driven by private business for their own gain. This has been in the making since the Carter years and each administration since (Repuiblican or Democrat) has supported it.

 

If you look at U.S. domestic issues with this understanding, you'll start to understand the actions or inaction of our Gov. Much of which is illeagal per our Constitution. And none of this is conspieracy nut stuff, it's all well documented, it just hasn't been spoon fed to the masses by our incompetent media.

 

Next thing to look for is run-away inflation in the U.S. as foriegn governments who have been holding vast reserves of U.S. dollars, see this as immenant and start to liqudate those dollars. Could start in 6 months or 6 years, but it will happen.

 

 

SUV, as a Canadian you must be getting some of your news from the BBC as do I. They do touch in this subject from time to time. Shameful when you have to watch foriegn news to find out what happening in your own country.