The Future Of Sheetmetal (Tinwork)

[SheetMetalJoe]

When I came on the trade in 2001 as an apprentice, we had about 23 tinners, lots of work, and seemed to be important to the plant. We designed, fabricated and installed exhaust pipe, guarding, chutes, covers, ductwork, etc... Also we had a dedicated welder to assist in all of this work. Now, we are lucky if we get to install pre-made ductwork that comes from the outside. I truly enjoy this trade, and hate to see it snuffed out, but it seems that the writing is on the wall.

 

I would enjoy reading any other tinners stories.

 

Is this happening at other locations?

 

[fordxer]

When I came on the trade in 2001 as an apprentice, we had about 23 tinners, lots of work, and seemed to be important to the plant. We designed, fabricated and installed exhaust pipe, guarding, chutes, covers, ductwork, etc... Also we had a dedicated welder to assist in all of this work. Now, we are lucky if we get to install pre-made ductwork that comes from the outside. I truly enjoy this trade, and hate to see it snuffed out, but it seems that the writing is on the wall.

 

I would enjoy reading any other tinners stories.

 

Is this happening at other locations?

 

It is the same way at our plant also. It has been my experience as a one-time committeeman and as a tinner that I have been hard pressed to find a boss that has an inkling as to what our trade consists of. Therefore, there is much less responsibility to just farm it ou to the contractors. at our plant there is as much sheet metal as there is anything else (except for column posts for the electricians to man, maybe)LOL. At one point we had convinced the company that it was much cheaper for us to build tool and storage cabinets, like the Stronghold boxes they buy. Then they were set up in stroes as a purchaseable item and now we make very few. Mainly the special order ones that they can't find in the catalog.

 

Keep in touch

[level]

When I came on the trade in 2001 as an apprentice, we had about 23 tinners, lots of work, and seemed to be important to the plant. We designed, fabricated and installed exhaust pipe, guarding, chutes, covers, ductwork, etc... Also we had a dedicated welder to assist in all of this work. Now, we are lucky if we get to install pre-made ductwork that comes from the outside. I truly enjoy this trade, and hate to see it snuffed out, but it seems that the writing is on the wall.

 

I would enjoy reading any other tinners stories.

 

Is this happening at other locations?

 

 

What you have said is correct, the trade numbers have been dwindling in all trades, but it is more evident in smaller populated classifications.

 

Many locals have, over time, consolidated this work into the millwright trade in their local contracts. I personally do not agree with this philosophy, as the apprenticeships for each of these trades are totally different. In many of these plants the millwrights have reverted to exactly the position you state, installing work fabbed on the outside, or are too busy on other installation work to even take on the sheet metal portions - and they subsequently get outsourced in entirety.

 

The 2007 contract talks were extremely heated debates concerning the sheet metal/tinsmith trade. The Company repeatedly demanded that this work be absorbed into the Millwright trade. A comparison of apprenticeships presented by the Union showed quite the contrary, and the combination was vehemently opposed by the Ford-UAW skilled negotiators.

 

Although the numbers have significantly decreased over time, it is partially due to the fact that many locations hired sheetmetal workers for Launches and building expansions, changeovers etc. and subsequently, after the major work was completed - found that there was an excess. That combined with the local COA's who absorbed this work into the millwright classification has dealt a significant blow to your trade population.

 

However, there is solace in the fact that out of 316 classifications which were pared down to 22, the Sheetmetal trade was retained based on the unique abilities and core skills inherent to the profession. I would expect that the locations return to fighting for the fabrication work as well as the installations so that, over time, we may be able to increase the numbers again through decreased outside fabrication. Each local must take up this fight to retain this work if we are to suceed. Good luck in your fight, I wish you and your trade the best brother.

[fordxer]

What you have said is correct, the trade numbers have been dwindling in all trades, but it is more evident in smaller populated classifications.

 

Many locals have, over time, consolidated this work into the millwright trade in their local contracts. I personally do not agree with this philosophy, as the apprenticeships for each of these trades are totally different. In many of these plants the millwrights have reverted to exactly the position you state, installing work fabbed on the outside, or are too busy on other installation work to even take on the sheet metal portions - and they subsequently get outsourced in entirety.

 

The 2007 contract talks were extremely heated debates concerning the sheet metal/tinsmith trade. The Company repeatedly demanded that this work be absorbed into the Millwright trade. A comparison of apprenticeships presented by the Union showed quite the contrary, and the combination was vehemently opposed by the Ford-UAW skilled negotiators.

 

Although the numbers have significantly decreased over time, it is partially due to the fact that many locations hired sheetmetal workers for Launches and building expansions, changeovers etc. and subsequently, after the major work was completed - found that there was an excess. That combined with the local COA's who absorbed this work into the millwright classification has dealt a significant blow to your trade population.

 

However, there is solace in the fact that out of 316 classifications which were pared down to 22, the Sheetmetal trade was retained based on the unique abilities and core skills inherent to the profession. I would expect that the locations return to fighting for the fabrication work as well as the installations so that, over time, we may be able to increase the numbers again through decreased outside fabrication. Each local must take up this fight to retain this work if we are to suceed. Good luck in your fight, I wish you and your trade the best brother.

Level, Thanks for the insight. I appreciate you coming on here and letting us in on what the IU is doing for the trades, especially the smaller ones.

[nvsked]

Level, Thanks for the insight. I appreciate you coming on here and letting us in on what the IU is doing for the trades, especially the smaller ones.

 

Tinners Rock... some of the finest trades people I know, unfortunately even outside tinners are scarce. Keep the faith brother things will pick up "We shall over come"

[TN_TINMAN]

When I came on the trade in 2001 as an apprentice, we had about 23 tinners, lots of work, and seemed to be important to the plant. We designed, fabricated and installed exhaust pipe, guarding, chutes, covers, ductwork, etc... Also we had a dedicated welder to assist in all of this work. Now, we are lucky if we get to install pre-made ductwork that comes from the outside. I truly enjoy this trade, and hate to see it snuffed out, but it seems that the writing is on the wall.

 

I would enjoy reading any other tinners stories.

 

Is this happening at other locations?

 

 

Hey Joe ! When I came into the trade in 93 I worked at the Dearborn assembly ( when the mustangs were there ) the work was always there. we fabed, installed duct work, made lockers, hung siding, put in drop ceilings, guards, + plenty of goverment jobs LOL ! there were about 60 of us then ( through out the rouge complex ) when I left in 97 and came to nashville there were about 45 still there. In nashville now there are only 7 of us here, spread out between four shifts and three of us are taking flowbacks. There is still plenty of work here ( although the millwrongs and carpenters do about 40% of our work here ) but now of course , its harder to get it done. 1 - our man power is spread to thin. 2- The "BRAINS" of the operation changed the way we do things here. Now ah days we get these work orders at the start of the shift and "Thats the only thing u work on" ! Hell, every plant I have worked at we would go out and find work to do in addition to the work we had going on. this way we would always have something to do. I was "CAUGHT" one time working on different company job that was not "ASSIGNED" to me a few years ago and was told "You only work on what we tell you to work on"!! LOL - can ya believe that crap !! So now ah days I do just that. Even our own Super had told us we are not needed there !( Millrights are the GODS of the plant ) Hows that for a kick in the ass!! LOL

I like the trade also and hope things turn around for us, but , who knows - only time will tell !! good luck out there !!

Just a story

[fordxer]

Hey Joe ! When I came into the trade in 93 I worked at the Dearborn assembly ( when the mustangs were there ) the work was always there. we fabed, installed duct work, made lockers, hung siding, put in drop ceilings, guards, + plenty of goverment jobs LOL ! there were about 60 of us then ( through out the rouge complex ) when I left in 97 and came to nashville there were about 45 still there. In nashville now there are only 7 of us here, spread out between four shifts and three of us are taking flowbacks. There is still plenty of work here ( although the millwrongs and carpenters do about 40% of our work here ) but now of course , its harder to get it done. 1 - our man power is spread to thin. 2- The "BRAINS" of the operation changed the way we do things here. Now ah days we get these work orders at the start of the shift and "Thats the only thing u work on" ! Hell, every plant I have worked at we would go out and find work to do in addition to the work we had going on. this way we would always have something to do. I was "CAUGHT" one time working on different company job that was not "ASSIGNED" to me a few years ago and was told "You only work on what we tell you to work on"!! LOL - can ya believe that crap !! So now ah days I do just that. Even our own Super had told us we are not needed there !( Millrights are the GODS of the plant ) Hows that for a kick in the ass!! LOL

I like the trade also and hope things turn around for us, but , who knows - only time will tell !! good luck out there !!

Just a story

I, too, have had similar run-ins with bosses about "Failure to follow instructions" by getting a job done and then finding something else to work on to pass the time. But, like the letter of '39 states in the contract, "The Company has the right to run the business as they see fit". I have greatly enjoyed being a sheet metal worker. I served my apprenticeship through SheetMetal Workers Local # 2 here in KC and was lucky enough to land a job like this (thought I'd died and gone to heaven).

 

There was a day when we would fabricate and install things like partitions for the bathroom stalls. Now it is less responsibility to just buy it rather than utilize the man and brain power we have in house.

 

We have had a real hard time here lately with either the co. assigning our work to the millscabs, scabwrights (I foreget how to spell it), or them just doing it on their own. That is what I call real brotherhood.

 

Keep up the hard work and good luck

[TN_TINMAN]

I, too, have had similar run-ins with bosses about "Failure to follow instructions" by getting a job done and then finding something else to work on to pass the time. But, like the letter of '39 states in the contract, "The Company has the right to run the business as they see fit". I have greatly enjoyed being a sheet metal worker. I served my apprenticeship through SheetMetal Workers Local # 2 here in KC and was lucky enough to land a job like this (thought I'd died and gone to heaven).

 

There was a day when we would fabricate and install things like partitions for the bathroom stalls. Now it is less responsibility to just buy it rather than utilize the man and brain power we have in house.

 

We have had a real hard time here lately with either the co. assigning our work to the millscabs, scabwrights (I foreget how to spell it), or them just doing it on their own. That is what I call real brotherhood.

 

Keep up the hard work and good luck

 

Funny though, they'ed rather have you sit on your butt for 8 hrs. rather than going out and fixing problems they know that will have to be done sooner or later because the "Paper work does not reflect" the job. LOL , what a joke. Its like having your comode backed up and saying, well the paper work dos'nt reflect that job yet!! There is plenty of work to do out here and I am certain we all could be working 7/12s if the powers to be would let us go out and do these jobs. but it's clear to me they don't want to spend the time - money - or effort on the tinsmith craft. Hell, we can't even get sheetmetal ordered. My personal favorite is when they do want a job done and u tell em' - we have no metal, can u order some? They say - well, don't u have any scrap laying around. It's like , O'yea, wait here, I'll go pull some out of my ass !! LOL ! So this is the mold that has become for the past 7-8 yrs. The bad part is - you get used to it. So your right - The co. has the right to run the bussiness the way they see fit - The way I see it is, The co. would like to run the sheetmetal craft out of bussiness and into the street.!! Just my thoughts.

 

It is better to live standing than to die on your knees. Hang tuff brother.......

[SheetMetalJoe]

Thanks for all the comments!

 

I see that we all seem to be in the same boat.

 

 

Here is another thing that irritates me.

 

Regarding the "Stronghold" lockers. Clearly everyone of us can make these lockers, and we can make them custom to specific situations. Also it would keep us (Tinners), welders, and painters busy. But for some reason the company would rather purchase them from a company in Louisville Kentucky. This helps the workers at Stronghold, and their local economy, and does nothing for any of us.

 

I guess the reasoning goes... when the company buys from the outside, they are not paying outsiders any benefits, so in the long run they are saving money.

 

The problem with that thinking is that there are still plenty of us employed with Ford. So as long as we are receiving our pay and benefits, why not use us to our full capability. Instead we get laid off, shuffled around, or put in GEN, while some other company keeps making our products.

[fordxer]

Thanks for all the comments!

 

I see that we all seem to be in the same boat.

 

 

Here is another thing that irritates me.

 

Regarding the "Stronghold" lockers. Clearly everyone of us can make these lockers, and we can make them custom to specific situations. Also it would keep us (Tinners), welders, and painters busy. But for some reason the company would rather purchase them from a company in Louisville Kentucky. This helps the workers at Stronghold, and their local economy, and does nothing for any of us.

 

I guess the reasoning goes... when the company buys from the outside, they are not paying outsiders any benefits, so in the long run they are saving money.

 

The problem with that thinking is that there are still plenty of us employed with Ford. So as long as we are receiving our pay and benefits, why not use us to our full capability. Instead we get laid off, shuffled around, or put in GEN, while some other company keeps making our products.

We had a system going at one time that we proved to the co. that we could save them about a third of the cost of a stronghold (plain box just shelves). We were turning out about three a day (8 hrs) This went on for about two weeks when one of the bosses he was going to pull our welder away from us for some phoney breakdowns. next thing you know we are sitting in the shop "WAITING ON A WELDER" (we have all heard that phrase). The Superintendent comes back and says "Your boss says he can't get you guys to do anything. What is the problem?" Well, the rest is history. now we are lucky to get the specialty boxes and those are usually government jobs.

 

With the knowledge we have in the tinshops across the co. I am sure we could get a system going to manufacture these items. I know a few years ago our toolmakers in the Truck Body shop got a new CNC. Then they started making all kinds of things and selling them to other plants. I have been to several of the plants either as a committeeman or FTPM Coord. and have met several of the tinners. I have also seen some pretty nice items on the floor when touring the plants. So I know there is a lot of knowledge and skill out there to be tapped into.

 

But like I said in one of my last posts, it's a management responsibility issue.

[SheetMetalJoe]

We had a system going at one time that we proved to the co. that we could save them about a third of the cost of a stronghold (plain box just shelves). We were turning out about three a day (8 hrs) This went on for about two weeks when one of the bosses he was going to pull our welder away from us for some phoney breakdowns. next thing you know we are sitting in the shop "WAITING ON A WELDER" (we have all heard that phrase). The Superintendent comes back and says "Your boss says he can't get you guys to do anything. What is the problem?" Well, the rest is history. now we are lucky to get the specialty boxes and those are usually government jobs.

 

With the knowledge we have in the tinshops across the co. I am sure we could get a system going to manufacture these items. I know a few years ago our toolmakers in the Truck Body shop got a new CNC. Then they started making all kinds of things and selling them to other plants. I have been to several of the plants either as a committeeman or FTPM Coord. and have met several of the tinners. I have also seen some pretty nice items on the floor when touring the plants. So I know there is a lot of knowledge and skill out there to be tapped into.

 

But like I said in one of my last posts, it's a management responsibility issue.

 

 

 

Maybe they should put as all in one facility, with the best equipment from each location, and we can run our own little business.

 

wait a minute..... that would make too much sense????

[tinman]

I too think our trade is dying, not only do young people not want to work with their hands and learn a craft I feel the union sells us down the road.I used to sweat it ,now I look at it like this---- I used to work on a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i...etc now I just work on a,b,c.. while still making the same money,it only hurts management!If we were working 12hrs a day it would affect me but at 40 hrs a week I win. the millwrights can do it all we've already lost.Just show up everyday and hold your hand out on friday.I used to fight for the people who might come to work after me ,but not anymore because i'll be the last tinner hired in this plant.

[level]

I too think our trade is dying, not only do young people not want to work with their hands and learn a craft I feel the union sells us down the road.I used to sweat it ,now I look at it like this---- I used to work on a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i...etc now I just work on a,b,c.. while still making the same money,it only hurts management!If we were working 12hrs a day it would affect me but at 40 hrs a week I win. the millwrights can do it all we've already lost.Just show up everyday and hold your hand out on friday.I used to fight for the people who might come to work after me ,but not anymore because i'll be the last tinner hired in this plant.

 

If you give up the fight, then you give up your right to bitch about it. The Union has retained your trade at the National level, it is up to you and your local Union to keep, fight and retain not only what work is left - but to grow the business. If there is work out there that you should be doing, then don't hold out your hand - hold out your fist brother. Demand and take back what is yours, quitters never win.

[tinman]

Level, I've fought the fight since 6/19/89. I do not need or want your your guidance as to how to fight the fight.When your local union officals tells your craft you are on your own in this fight , refuse to write grievences,do not replace retiring tinners or cover vacancy's with overtime while every other craft racks up 12hr days.Some people like to respond without walking in others workboots in other plants and in other locals.Please refrain from insuating that I have some character flaw because I have chosen not to sweat it anymore.I'm done fighting the union and the company whether you or anybody else likes it!

[level]

Level, I've fought the fight since 6/19/89. I do not need or want your your guidance as to how to fight the fight.When your local union officals tells your craft you are on your own in this fight , refuse to write grievences,do not replace retiring tinners or cover vacancy's with overtime while every other craft racks up 12hr days.Some people like to respond without walking in others workboots in other plants and in other locals.Please refrain from insuating that I have some character flaw because I have chosen not to sweat it anymore.I'm done fighting the union and the company whether you or anybody else likes it!

 

[whereswaldo]

If you give up the fight, then you give up your right to bitch about it. The Union has retained your trade at the National level, it is up to you and your local Union to keep, fight and retain not only what work is left - but to grow the business. If there is work out there that you should be doing, then don't hold out your hand - hold out your fist brother. Demand and take back what is yours, quitters never win.

Really ? Where is that in the constitution ?? And where was the International support when these locals were fighting the good fight all these yrs to keep or insource work ?? Doesnt do much good to have Tinsmith at national level if there arent any at the local levels.JMO ......

[whereswaldo]

Typical Captain723 response..........

[level]

Really ? Where is that in the constitution ?? And where was the International support when these locals were fighting the good fight all these yrs to keep or insource work ?? Doesnt do much good to have Tinsmith at national level if there arent any at the local levels.JMO ......

 

Why don't you just quit and go work at a non-Union Company?

 

I mean really, you bitch and whine and it's always a friggin union conspiracy. Leave dude, no one is trying to keep you here. Go to a right to work state you incessant crybaby. I can't stand it anymore. Wah wah wahhhhhhhhhhhhh. Cry cry cry. Every frigging thread on every friggin subject.

 

You are the biggest crybaby millwright I have ever seen!

 

[whereswaldo]

Why don't you just quit and go work at a non-Union Company?

 

I mean really, you bitch and whine and it's always a friggin union conspiracy. Leave dude, no one is trying to keep you here. Go to a right to work state you incessant crybaby. I can't stand it anymore. Wah wah wahhhhhhhhhhhhh. Cry cry cry. Every frigging thread on every friggin subject.

 

You are the biggest crybaby millwright I have ever seen!

 

Still another Captain723 response ! Don't read any whining here. Seems like you are the one pitchin a bitch here Level. You're the one hammering a fellow brother who is tired of fighting but losing. I know,... you, Cappy,etc. feel you have to keep the troops in line when they stumble. Well very noble of you but if iuaw hadnt been sitting on their hands for so long(along with Ford) you wouldn't be hearing half this shit. You are even starting to read posts like Cappy does. Too bad your brains don't keep up with your eyes.

 

And I dont see a conspiracy. Thats your delusion . I just didnt seem to realize how locals are on their own so much in regard to what Tinman was posting about. Locals sure need to do the good fight in the trenches but iuaw is supposed to have the muscle. So use it and maybe Tinman can finish his career with more time on his trade than in JSP. Nice conversing.............

[Captain723]

Why don't you just quit and go work at a non-Union Company?

 

I mean really, you bitch and whine and it's always a friggin union conspiracy. Leave dude, no one is trying to keep you here. Go to a right to work state you incessant crybaby. I can't stand it anymore. Wah wah wahhhhhhhhhhhhh. Cry cry cry. Every frigging thread on every friggin subject.

 

You are the biggest crybaby millwright I have ever seen!

 

That is perfect for waldfk..... :shades: .....have you ever heard of such a fricken constant BEAAAAATCH about every post he has??

[ngp roots]

Level, I've fought the fight since 6/19/89. I do not need or want your your guidance as to how to fight the fight.When your local union officals tells your craft you are on your own in this fight , refuse to write grievences,do not replace retiring tinners or cover vacancy's with overtime while every other craft racks up 12hr days.Some people like to respond without walking in others workboots in other plants and in other locals.Please refrain from insuating that I have some character flaw because I have chosen not to sweat it anymore.I'm done fighting the union and the company whether you or anybody else likes it!

 

What a minute tinman, be real careful when you put all the committeemen in one group. Your skilled trades rep is responsible for your work. I know that you all are pretty disappointed with your skilled trades rep, but you guys elected him. All I can say is hindsight in 20/20. I know you are leaving, but the guys staying can change that.

[tinman]

I did not post to start a pissin match between anybody.I'm just trying to say , you can only poke yourself in the eye so many times before you go blind.Sooner or later you'll quit poking yourself in the eye.To all who disagree with me .... that doesn't make me wrong ,it only means we disagree.It doesn't make you right either, no matter how personal you may take it.

[ngp roots]

I did not post to start a pissin match between anybody.I'm just trying to say , you can only poke yourself in the eye so many times before you go blind.Sooner or later you'll quit poking yourself in the eye.To all who disagree with me .... that doesn't make me wrong ,it only means we disagree.It doesn't make you right either, no matter how personal you may take it.

 

 

Tinman, I am not trying to start a pissin match either. I am on your side and agree with you 100%. I know that you are not the only one that feels that way. I have been in the union office several times talking to the rep when a skilled tradesman would come in absolutely furious. The regular committeeman would have to take care of the issue. Everyone knows that the skilled trade rep and the maint. manager are like two peas in a pod "tight I am telling you". Fred all I can say is I don't see how all you are not blind by now, all maint. have been poked numerous times. Keep up the fight, it's like the guy said in the earlier post don't give up.

[TN_TINMAN]

Tinman, I am not trying to start a pissin match either. I am on your side and agree with you 100%. I know that you are not the only one that feels that way. I have been in the union office several times talking to the rep when a skilled tradesman would come in absolutely furious. The regular committeeman would have to take care of the issue. Everyone knows that the skilled trade rep and the maint. manager are like two peas in a pod "tight I am telling you". Fred all I can say is I don't see how all you are not blind by now, all maint. have been poked numerous times. Keep up the fight, it's like the guy said in the earlier post don't give up.

 

 

NGP ROOTS.....That is NOT ME! I am TN_TINMAN.....NOT TINMAN, I do not know who TINMAN is.

[ngp roots]

NGP ROOTS.....That is NOT ME! I am TN_TINMAN.....NOT TINMAN, I do not know who TINMAN is.

 

 

Oh Shit, my fault Fred. I thought it was you. I didn't look close enough. I believe that the post will work for our plant also, sounds like Nashville as well.