Michael Reynolds Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 (edited) Both Honda and Toyota dumped their wagons way back......well wait I can't even remember. I'd rather engineering and R&D go into a much better sedan, than stretching a budget to offer something with what I can only guess has less than a 5% take rate of overall sales. Edited April 25, 2008 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Here ya go...just buy this wonderful piece of machinery: Oh...............................wait............................. funny, they are popular as hell in Euro, wagons everywhere....oh, but wait...the roads are also too narrow for SUV's and driving the vehicle in your sig would have bodyshops applauding......cars are more in tune with NEEDS in Euro...not DESIRE as here......as witnessed...they are NOT bought as a status symbol.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 funny, they are popular as hell in Euro, wagons everywhere....oh, but wait...the roads are also too narrow for SUV's and driving the vehicle in your sig would have bodyshops applauding......cars are more in tune with NEEDS in Euro...not DESIRE as here......as witnessed...they are NOT bought as a status symbol.... Just one more big difference between America and the rest of the world. We have always been a nation fascinated with the open road and a love for the automobile. Unfortunately, that love affair seems to be waning in recent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbuck15 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 So it has the MKS engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Just one more big difference between America and the rest of the world. We have always been a nation fascinated with the open road and a love for the automobile. Unfortunately, that love affair seems to be waning in recent years. not sure that is true anymore Nick...nation of wretched excess where bigger is better, cars are a status symbol/ sign of "sucess", I would also say perhaps a little oblivious, yet the first to scream and yell when things equalize ( ie gas prices coming more into line with what most are used too ), then reject what once was found to be acceptable ( large SUV's and vehicles NOT specifically fuel concious )....it has been interesting veiwing the publics buying practices in response to gas prices...could this be the re-birth on the "coveted by a few " Manual transmission? It has certainly boosted interest in smaller "seemingly more fuel efficient cars'" along with SUVS getting larger rebates and STILL gathering lot dust.... America is re-calibrating something they have taken for granted for way too long....as for an enjoyable drive...not easy anymore with bumper to bumper pretty much the norm to get to a fun romp only to have it quelled by a sneaky touting a radar detector.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Yeah, since station wagons are ever-popular in the United States. :rolleyes: There's a reason fewer and fewer wagons are being offered by EVERYBODY. Then why is Ford rolling out their Flexible later this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Then why is Ford rolling out their Flexible later this year? Because it doesn't look like a wagon in the traditional sense. About the only automaker having any luck lately marketing a traditional wagon is Subaru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 not sure that is true anymore Nick...nation of wretched excess where bigger is better, cars are a status symbol/ sign of "sucess" Oh piffle. If anything, the car is MORE of a status symbol in Europe than it is in the US. You don't have to look far to see the French propping up PSA & Renault, the Germans VW, the Italians, Fiat, etc., to KNOW that EUROPEANS consider cars as a symbol of a very different sort of STATUS. Or is it just coincidence that the most popular vehicle range just happens to coincide with the country of origin in France, Germany, and Italy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Oh piffle. If anything, the car is MORE of a status symbol in Europe than it is in the US. You don't have to look far to see the French propping up PSA & Renault, the Germans VW, the Italians, Fiat, etc., to KNOW that EUROPEANS consider cars as a symbol of a very different sort of STATUS. Or is it just coincidence that the most popular vehicle range just happens to coincide with the country of origin in France, Germany, and Italy? Well, that's more nationalism than it is self-absorbed gluttony like it is here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 (edited) Oh piffle. If anything, the car is MORE of a status symbol in Europe than it is in the US. You don't have to look far to see the French propping up PSA & Renault, the Germans VW, the Italians, Fiat, etc., to KNOW that EUROPEANS consider cars as a symbol of a very different sort of STATUS. Or is it just coincidence that the most popular vehicle range just happens to coincide with the country of origin in France, Germany, and Italy? everybody hates the French EXCEPT the french, the Germans think they are superior, the Italians are passionate about their own country to a fault....three good examples though, elsewhere a majority of cars are bought with just a few items in mind, MPG's, functionality and affordability.....mind you this is based on experiences in Ireland and to a less extent New Zealand...I only saw 2 Range rovers, I Jag...aside from that the highest "highline" was 3.0 BMW's TDI's of course.....my guess is a MAJORITY of purchases are made more with the head than the heart........Piffle?.........last I recollect a Smart car isn't a status symbol ( ALL OVER ROME ) but a necessity...... Edited April 25, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well, that's more nationalism than it is self-absorbed gluttony like it is here. It is what it is. A purchasing decision based not on quantifiable externals but a perception of self. Doesn't matter who you are or where you are, you are still a human being and not too different from anyone else anywhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 (edited) my guess is a MAJORITY of purchases are made more with the head than the heart........ WRONG!!!! And you're in SALES?????? Do you think they breed an entirely different creature on the continent? Are the humanoid animals in Europe of a totally different species than the creatures inhabiting the US? Tell me, if you married a European would you have some sort of sterile hybrid offspring? Fact is, people will tell you whatever they think you want to hear about why they do what they do. Living outside the US doesn't make you any less of a natural born liar than living here. People all the time, ALL THE TIME say that fuel economy and safety are their biggest concerns when buying a car. You tell me: How often is fuel economy and safety the deciding factor? Sure people in other countries will tell you that they're buying with a view to practicality and economy, but do you for an instant think that they're lying any less than Americans that say they're buying with a view to economy and safety? Edited April 25, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 It is what it is. A purchasing decision based not on quantifiable externals but a perception of self. Doesn't matter who you are or where you are, you are still a human being and not too different from anyone else anywhere else. ahhh, but proirities are DEFINITELY changing as buying parameters alter due to outside influences....agree? Smaller more fuel efficient cars are now being veiwed in a different light completely...something the rest of the world has been doing for years........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Have to agree with Nick on the "self-absorbed" part. I've travelled a bit, and I think other people in other places are a lot more aware of their place in the world (hence the choice of nationalism in purchasing) than many Americans are. We've got a serious "Middle Kingdom" (to use the Chinese equivalent - one other people who are a lot like us in that respect) complex here - thinking the world revolves around us and our needs. That outward vs. inward focus is precisely why so many European countries still nurture a domestic auto industry (and all to the better for the state of the industry in my opinion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Because it doesn't look like a wagon in the traditional sense. About the only automaker having any luck lately marketing a traditional wagon is Subaru. Have you actually seen a picture of the Flexible? The only way it could be more of a wagon is if it was named Country Squire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Have to agree with Nick on the "self-absorbed" part. I've travelled a bit, and I think other people in other places are a lot more aware of their place in the world (hence the choice of nationalism in purchasing) than many Americans are. We've got a serious "Middle Kingdom" (to use the Chinese equivalent - one other people who are a lot like us in that respect) complex here - thinking the world revolves around us and our needs. That outward vs. inward focus is precisely why so many European countries still nurture a domestic auto industry (and all to the better for the state of the industry in my opinion). Oh, I wouldn't dispute the 'self-absorbed' assertion. Merely the notion that being self-absorbed is inherently worse than having a strong attachment to an ethnic identity. I think the 'middle-kingdom' comparison is interesting, but also somewhat flawed, in that the concept of "America" has never been tied to an ethnic, racial, or even (really) a linguistic identity. In that respect the "American" is more akin to the Roman citizen than anything else. I would be tempted to go as far back as Rome to find a similar cultural outlook--the Roman's view that it was of pre-eminent worth to be a Roman coupled with the idea that =anyone= could be a Roman, provided certain conditions were met. And, of course, the Romans too viewed themselves as the center of the world, and as the peacekeepers of the world outside their immediate borders. One could even go so far as to liken the assignment of Roman citizenship to veterans with today's green card soldiers, but IMO, that draws a comparison that is too detailed, when at best, these sorts of comparisons should be left vague and general (as we are, after all, looking at a gap in time of 2,000 years, and even though people don't really change, institutions do). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 WRONG!!!! And you're in SALES?????? Do you think they breed an entirely different creature on the continent? Are the humanoid animals in Europe of a totally different species than the creatures inhabiting the US? Tell me, if you married a European would you have some sort of sterile hybrid offspring? Fact is, people will tell you whatever they think you want to hear about why they do what they do. Living outside the US doesn't make you any less of a natural born liar than living here. People all the time, ALL THE TIME say that fuel economy and safety are their biggest concerns when buying a car. You tell me: How often is fuel economy and safety the deciding factor? Sure people in other countries will tell you that they're buying with a view to practicality and economy, but do you for an instant think that they're lying any less than Americans that say they're buying with a view to economy and safety? dis-agree vehemently....HERE fuel economy was NEVER an issue @ $1.75 a gallon, at that price people didn't give a rats and IGNORED the more fuel efficient compacts, safety was NEVER that big a factior until the media jumped on the wagon and started publicizing all the DRAMA ( bad news...GREAT HEADLINES )and the public started taking notice and SUING.....then the manufacturers were FORCED to make changes ( abeit some rightfully so ).....now its become a fad and manufacturers race to have the most airbags and safety features because the public has been brainwashed into over estimating their importance. BETTER DRIVERS EDUCATION, vehicle maintenence and DEFENSIVE driving would have more effect on diminishing potential accidents than the next "Vunderba" safety gimmick...but it wouldn't sell more cars would it? My entire family in NZ bought cars as BASIC A to B reliable transportation...their priorities are different when it comes to cars.....they also drive them till they drop... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 (edited) dis-agree vehemently Okay, right NOW, people say that fuel efficiency is a top concern, what do you see RIGHT NOW. I'm not talking about 10 years ago when people said that they didn't care about fuel economy. I'm talking about right NOW. Do you see people ONLY buying the most fuel efficient and safe vehicles that meet their needs? Because if so, I'm trying to figure out how you sell ANY Fusions at all. And, conversely, why the Taurus isn't FLYING off your lots. Edited April 25, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Oh, I wouldn't dispute the 'self-absorbed' assertion. Merely the notion that being self-absorbed is inherently worse than having a strong attachment to an ethnic identity. I think the 'middle-kingdom' comparison is interesting, but also somewhat flawed, in that the concept of "America" has never been tied to an ethnic, racial, or even (really) a linguistic identity. In that respect the "American" is more akin to the Roman citizen than anything else. I would be tempted to go as far back as Rome to find a similar cultural outlook--the Roman's view that it was of pre-eminent worth to be a Roman coupled with the idea that =anyone= could be a Roman, provided certain conditions were met. And, of course, the Romans too viewed themselves as the center of the world, and as the peacekeepers of the world outside their immediate borders. One could even go so far as to liken the assignment of Roman citizenship to veterans with today's green card soldiers, but IMO, that draws a comparison that is too detailed, when at best, these sorts of comparisons should be left vague and general (as we are, after all, looking at a gap in time of 2,000 years, and even though people don't really change, institutions do). Your analogy is apt. And cautionary. Or should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Okay, right NOW, people say that fuel efficiency is a top concern, what do you see RIGHT NOW. I'm not talking about 10 years ago when people said that they didn't care about fuel economy. I'm talking about right NOW. Do you see people ONLY buying the most fuel efficient and safe vehicles that meet their needs? Because if so, I'm trying to figure out how you sell ANY Fusions at all. And, conversely, why the Taurus isn't FLYING off your lots. truth be told Rich people now take safety as a GIVEN...it RARELY comes up in any conversation....and MPG"S are at the forefront now....my how prorities have changed, can't remember the last time i was asked 0-60, top speed or Horsepower.....( PS Taurus is just plain UGLY!...may not be the only reason but definitely near the top ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 (edited) Your analogy is apt. And cautionary. Or should be. I dunno. I guess it all depends on the sort of evils you'd like to be associated with. The Romans (aside from Jerusalem and Carthage) weren't big on mass slaughter and genocide. They were, however, big on economic imperialism, opportunistic expansion and conspicuous consumption. The rise of nation states corresponding with ethnic identities, however, has made all sorts of new atrocities possible. One needs the national identity of the Japanese to rape Manchuria and Korea, or the Germans to exterminate the Jews and 'untermenschen'. The wholesale slaughter the Romans engaged in at Carthage at the end of the 3rd Punic War or in Jerusalem in 70CE were not characteristic of the republic/empire at those times--being a sprawling and ethnically diverse collective even during the Punic Wars, the Roman state was not united in action against Carthage, and it certainly wasn't against Jerusalem. However, the 'final solution' and subjugation of mainland Asia were fundamental to the identity of the Germans and Japanese as an ethnic unit/nation state. The body politic on the whole accepted these atrocities as part and parcel of their identity. Any objections were not only deemed unpatriotic by the government but by society in general as well. By contrast, during the 3rd Punic War and the Judean War, one imagines quarters of the Roman state where those actions were simply not an issue for the people going about their daily lives. I would compare the US' actions in the Indian Wars and the Japanese internment camps with Rome's actions in Carthage and Jerusalem. Edited April 25, 2008 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 ( PS Taurus is just plain UGLY!...may not be the only reason but definitely near the top ) So what you're saying is that even though it is SAFE and EFFICIENT, its appearances count for more than those attributes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 So what you're saying is that even though it is SAFE and EFFICIENT, its appearances count for more than those attributes? USA....=looks OVER content.....and here for better or worse the smaller the vehicle the greater the perception of efficiency ( I can't WAIT for the verve/ Fiesta as ALL corners are covered )....aside from styling Americans are missing the boat on the Taurus...GREAT driving car ( horrible ad campaign ALSO hurting its stature ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blazerdude20 Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 heres a nice america bound wagon? cts wagon. ten bucks says it will flop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 heres a nice america bound wagon? cts wagon. ten bucks says it will flop I don't know why you'd say that. I saw the headlights, grill and fog lights and said Cadillac. You mentioned CTS. I didn't think Cadillac was importing anything. You could have posted a link, but I'd like to take your bet and declare it a winner by what I saw of the rest of the car. You block that front end and it looks like an MKX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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