2008 MKS First Encounter

[RichardJensen]

I am of the belief that in the same way that SVT made some people look twice at Ford, the V will perhaps create a new group of us "middle" people (age, finances, etc.) that the domestics have not had for a decade or so. I'm not aspirational, I just want to no longer have to make excuses for my domestic choices.

Did SVT really bring many =new= Ford buyers into the brand? Or did it appeal mostly to Ford fans?

 

Further, I don't believe that the CTS-V eliminates the need to 'make excuses', depending on your age/demographic. Cadillac launched, to much fanfare, a push aimed at younger buyers going on a decade ago. Yet as recently as last summer, Cadillac's own research showed that the majority of buyers under 40 did not think that Cadillac was relevant.

 

"Cadillac saw global growth with sales increases outside of North America last year, thanks to a 45 percent increase in the Europe, a 42 percent climb in the Latin America, Africa and Middle East region, and an impressive 106 percent hike in the Asia Pacific region."

 

Right, but OTOH, if you look at Cadillac's volumes, especially in Europe, the actual unit volume is negligible. Certainly not enough to keep Sigma going when Caddy's EU volume is concentrated on the non-Sigma and poorly received BLS.

 

Caddy sales are at least finding new(or perhaps just different?) buyers, more than I think Lincoln can say.

Not necessarily. CTS average age is below the DTS, but still above comparable BMW models.

 

Also, is it a necessity to find 'different' buyers? If there are buyers in your logical demographic sufficient to sustain your brand, why expend the resources required to find different buyers?

 

Basically, if you're not doing your best to capture your logical buyers, why would you opt to bring in buyers that are far afield, instead of bringing in buyers that would gravitate toward your brand if it had a full lineup and competitive offerings?

 

Hmm, mediocrity as a mission statement. How very Ford of them.

 

I think that's a terribly short sighted attitude. You can spend a fortune and fail, as Cadillac is doing--generally--with Sigma (3 vehicles launched, 2 canceled), or you can spend a modest amount and succeed modestly.

 

There is nothing 'mediocre' about aiming for what is realisitically attainable.

 

As you say, many of your friends/acquaintances have no idea what Lincoln stands for, yet Lincoln has steadily increased its retail share of the segment over the last year or so. Lincoln is getting its message out there gradually among buyers that are 'natural' Lincoln buyers.

 

The measure of the success of a marketing campaign is how close your actual consumer matches your target consumer. I would venture to guess that Ford's 'mediocre' efforts are succeeding, where Cadillac's efforts are failing.

 

Perhaps there was a reason for that.

Well, if the attraction to BMW was the fact that BMWs were 'cool', I would have to say that no other marque has succeeded in displacing them. Frankly, I don't think that =every= person shopping for a $50k sedan wants a 'sports' sedan. In fact, I would argue that the Bimmer copycats have failed to understand what was attractive about Bimmers in the first place.

 

I mean, you tell me: How many people buying a BMW 5-Series are buying it because it's a poised vehicle in the twisty bits, and how many are buying it because it's a status symbol?

[Ralph Greene]

X plan price (available to anyone who visits this forum) on a $50,000 window price MKS would be what?....low 40's. Shucks....people are paying more than that for crudely built Shelby GT 500 Mustangs. I know you're talking different market, but folks are getting over sticker shock.

 

Try pricing out a premium pick up truck....etc. or any other so called luxury car.

 

These cars (MKS) are more than a success statement. They will be comfortable for us guys with old butts, roomy, easy to get in and out of, reasonably economical on 87, and best of all IMHO, have a maintenance schedule like a Ford product. My son has an Infinity, and it costs a fortune to have it serviced by the dealership.

 

BTW....When younger, I always lusted after BMW's. Now that I am retired, and probably in the demographics for a MKS (although I did not get retired early buying $50,000 cars), BMW's don't appeal to me anymore. (hi maintenance, hi octane fuel, etc) Neither does Lexus. For some reason Infinity does, like the M35, and the Cadillac and Lincolns do. Those of you who are younger, probably won't be attracted to the MKS, even with Eco Boost in a year or so. At my age, I just like a nice car. If I want to lay rubber, I've got a Mustang for that.

 

Another thing....I would pay cash and keep it probaby 10 Years. I would be scared to own a very hi tech BMW, Lexus, Infinity, for example that long. How much would it cost to keep all the gadgets operating well, if it costs $1500 just for a 30,000 mile service. At least on the MKS, I know underneath it's just basic Ford stuff....a big plus to me. And I bet others my age also. It definitely ain't about HP. I have no interest in an Eco Boost engine in this car. Put it in the Mustang.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[Sixt9coug]

X plan price (available to anyone who visits this forum) on a $50,000 window price MKS would be what?....low 40's. Shucks....people are paying more than that for crudely built Shelby GT 500 Mustangs. I know you're talking different market, but folks are getting over sticker shock.

 

Try pricing out a premium pick up truck....etc. or any other so called luxury car.

 

These cars are more than a success statement. They will be comfortable for us guys with old butts, roomy, easy to get in and out of, reasonably economical on 87, and best of all IMHO, have a maintenance schedule like a Ford product. My son has an Infinity, and it costs a fortune to have it serviced by the dealership.

 

What? He doesnt like spending $350 for each Brembo rotor? :D

[Ralph Greene]

What? He doesnt like spending $350 for each Brembo rotor? :D

 

He likes his FX35, but will not buy another one. He's thinking Mini Club Man last I heard. And also about ready for a new Odyssey for his wife. I wish I could get him back to a FMC dealership.

Edited May 17, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[Loyalbutconcerned]

same steering wheel buttons as the lowly fords? bad move. cheesy.

 

What would you do? How should it look? How much more would you sell it or? Come on be creative. Sonds like if you were doing i you could do it much better.

[wescoent]

X plan price (available to anyone who visits this forum) on a $50,000 window price MKS would be what?....low 40's. Shucks....people are paying more than that for crudely built Shelby GT 500 Mustangs. I know you're talking different market, but folks are getting over sticker shock.

 

Try pricing out a premium pick up truck....etc. or any other so called luxury car.

 

These cars (MKS) are more than a success statement. They will be comfortable for us guys with old butts, roomy, easy to get in and out of, reasonably economical on 87, and best of all IMHO, have a maintenance schedule like a Ford product. My son has an Infinity, and it costs a fortune to have it serviced by the dealership.

 

BTW....When younger, I always lusted after BMW's. Now that I am retired, and probably in the demographics for a MKS (although I did not get retired early buying $50,000 cars), BMW's don't appeal to me anymore. (hi maintenance, hi octane fuel, etc) Neither does Lexus. For some reason Infinity does, like the M35, and the Cadillac and Lincolns do. Those of you who are younger, probably won't be attracted to the MKS, even with Eco Boost in a year or so. At my age, I just like a nice car. If I want to lay rubber, I've got a Mustang for that.

 

Another thing....I would pay cash and keep it probaby 10 Years. I would be scared to own a very hi tech BMW, Lexus, Infinity, for example that long. How much would it cost to keep all the gadgets operating well, if it costs $1500 just for a 30,000 mile service. At least on the MKS, I know underneath it's just basic Ford stuff....a big plus to me. And I bet others my age also. It definitely ain't about HP. I have no interest in an Eco Boost engine in this car. Put it in the Mustang.

 

Shocking to think that a customer like you still exists... I wonder how many more of you there are in this country.

 

The comment about basic Ford guts is very telling. If you could get all the equipment of the MKS in a Ford Taurus, with a roughly comparable quality interior for about $5,000 less, would you buy the Lincoln or the Ford?

 

Your mindset is the same of millions over the years who bought old Cadillac, Lincolns, Buicks, and Oldsmobiles, knowing that under the skin, there was good reliable Ford or GM parts.

 

Compare that to the new generation who is willing to pay thousands of dollars to know that their new MB E350 4MATIC is pure Stuttgart to the core.

 

Or the truly twisted folks who know that their RS4 is nothing more than a FWD Golf/Rabbit under all the fancy parts, but kind of like it that way. Kind of like a working class stiff who fought his way up the ladder, and now puts the blue bloods to shame when going to toe to toe.

[regfootball]

What would you do? How should it look? How much more would you sell it or? Come on be creative. Sonds like if you were doing i you could do it much better.

 

those AU falcon interior pics are much better than the Lincoln 500......that would be a good starting point.

 

seriously, the lincoln should not have cheap a-ss crappy ford SWAC buttons.

 

the lincoln should be an upgrade in every way over the tortoise. btw, i am a 500 driver. so i am not a picky import humper.

 

the g8 i test drove today had pretty nice SWAC buttons.

 

the SWAC buttons on the lincoln taurus/500 ought to at least have much nicer buttons than say, a cheap fusion.

 

at least the lincoln montego will have 5.1 audio as an option. hope it doesnt sound like garbage like most ford audio the last decade or so. probably has paper cone speakers for a 50k car.

Edited May 18, 2008 by regfootball

[RichardJensen]

Wow. Look at you Mr. Sunshine. Last I checked the only thing GM stereos had on Ford's was antenna reception, and seeings how my '98 Contour had composite speakers, I'm pretty sure the MKS does too. In fact, is anyone using paper cone speakers anymore?

[wescoent]

those AU falcon interior pics are much better than the Lincoln 500......that would be a good starting point.

 

seriously, the lincoln should not have cheap a-ss crappy ford SWAC buttons.

 

the lincoln should be an upgrade in every way over the tortoise. btw, i am a 500 driver. so i am not a picky import humper.

 

the g8 i test drove today had pretty nice SWAC buttons.

 

the SWAC buttons on the lincoln taurus/500 ought to at least have much nicer buttons than say, a cheap fusion.

 

at least the lincoln montego will have 5.1 audio as an option. hope it doesnt sound like garbage like most ford audio the last decade or so. probably has paper cone speakers for a 50k car.

 

Seriously?

 

The G8, for all its mechanical merits, has among the cheapest switchgear I've felt in a car in nearly 10 years. The Taurus actually has a fairly nice interior for a sub 30k car, for all its sporting failures.

 

So long as a button feels good and doesn't obnoxiously click when you press it, it serves its purpose. Ford has pretty nicely damped and substantial feeling buttons.

[Blueblood]

Seeing the same cheap steering wheel in a 50K Lincoln that is found in a 17k Fusion is a problem.

 

And I've seen it in person and it looks like it's made of cheap plastic, go take a look at what wheels and interiors in competitors cars look like.

[TomServo92]

Seeing the same cheap steering wheel in a 50K Lincoln that is found in a 17k Fusion is a problem.

 

And I've seen it in person and it looks like it's made of cheap plastic, go take a look at what wheels and interiors in competitors cars look like.

 

Other than they're both four spoke designs, it doesn't look like the steering wheel in my Fusion...

Edited May 18, 2008 by TomServo92

[EMDEE]

This forum just slays me. We're up to 4 levels of posts with endless debate and complaints, yet, if I read it correctly, not a single person has actually driven the car. All but a few have not seen it, unless you count looking at two pictures "seeing" the car. I guarantee that no one can tell what quality impression a car actually makes based on a photograph. Photos are two dimensional representations of a complex 3 dimensional object, while the impression of "quality" depends not only on all three dimensions, but also texture, feel, smell, hardness/softness, and the sensations of motion. So I give a hoot what someone thinks about "buttons" as shown in a picture. And while some are complaining about "fake aluminum" my understanding is that the dash piece referred to is real aluminum, just like the wood is seriously real wood, not wud. On another angle, people seem to be comparing it to cars that Lincoln has no intention of competing with. The MKS will never be marketed as a CTS-V or M5 competitor. Wrong market niche. Yet the standard MKS has more, not less horsepower than the standard CTS. By Spring 09, it's optional engine will offer more power than all but the most radical cars, such as the CTS-V and M5, yet offer better fuel mileage than its standard V8 competitors. When considering cars like the CTS-V or M5, or Benz AMG, the fuel mileage comparison becomes ridiculous. Does it matter? I dunno about you folks, but I paid 4.29 a gallon for gas this morning and will bet it will be another dollar or more by spring 09.

 

The MKS, not the CTS, will be defining American luxury in the years ahead. There's nothing luxurious about a CTS when loaded with 4 passengers, while the MKS has the most interior space in the class. To do better you'd need to pay for a Benz S-class, say about 100 grand. Having ridden in one of those recently, it doesn't seem any more luxurious than the MKS.

 

Before sounding off, let's encourage folks to go sit in and drive an MKS. Then, if you still think it's inferior or a dolled up Ford, so be it. Feel the "Bridge of Weir" leather, which to me seems to compare to the best of Lexus. As for driving, I don't know. Like everyone else, I haven't driven one.

[Blueblood]

Other than they're both four spoke designs, it doesn't look like the steering wheel in my Fusion...

 

 

They are same steering wheel, the MKS wheel is darker in color, has the same exact buttons, an added strip of aluminum, and some fake plastic wood on the top of the rim. It's like comparing a Fusion and a Milan, same cars, the Milan just has a bit of extra flash, I don't why people are in denial. Ford needs to really step up it's game, Lincoln is getting beat by Hyundai as of right now.

[Blueblood]

This forum just slays me. We're up to 4 levels of posts with endless debate and complaints, yet, if I read it correctly, not a single person has actually driven the car. All but a few have not seen it, unless you count looking at two pictures "seeing" the car. I guarantee that no one can tell what quality impression a car actually makes based on a photograph. Photos are two dimensional representations of a complex 3 dimensional object, while the impression of "quality" depends not only on all three dimensions, but also texture, feel, smell, hardness/softness, and the sensations of motion. So I give a hoot what someone thinks about "buttons" as shown in a picture. And while some are complaining about "fake aluminum" my understanding is that the dash piece referred to is real aluminum, just like the wood is seriously real wood, not wud. On another angle, people seem to be comparing it to cars that Lincoln has no intention of competing with. The MKS will never be marketed as a CTS-V or M5 competitor. Wrong market niche. Yet the standard MKS has more, not less horsepower than the standard CTS. By Spring 09, it's optional engine will offer more power than all but the most radical cars, such as the CTS-V and M5, yet offer better fuel mileage than its standard V8 competitors. When considering cars like the CTS-V or M5, or Benz AMG, the fuel mileage comparison becomes ridiculous. Does it matter? I dunno about you folks, but I paid 4.29 a gallon for gas this morning and will bet it will be another dollar or more by spring 09.

 

The MKS, not the CTS, will be defining American luxury in the years ahead. There's nothing luxurious about a CTS when loaded with 4 passengers, while the MKS has the most interior space in the class. To do better you'd need to pay for a Benz S-class, say about 100 grand. Having ridden in one of those recently, it doesn't seem any more luxurious than the MKS.

 

Before sounding off, let's encourage folks to go sit in and drive an MKS. Then, if you still think it's inferior or a dolled up Ford, so be it. Feel the "Bridge of Weir" leather, which to me seems to compare to the best of Lexus. As for driving, I don't know. Like everyone else, I haven't driven one.

 

Considering I took those pictures I think I can say whether or not the interior is crap, everything is cheap looking and cheap feeling, you'll find out when they show up on dealer lots.

 

I guess it's a good Accord competitor, the Accord's interior is much much better though, I have to wonder if those comparing it to German luxury cars have ever been in one of those cars!! It's like comparing a Rolex to a Casio.

 

Ford needs to decide who they are going to target with Lincoln, all the gizmo's in the world won't matter if the interior looks like crap.

 

And yea, I haven't driven one either, but at least in competitor's cars I don't have a drive wheel where my feet should be because they aren't wrong wheel drive, and that's a huge part of a fine luxury automobile, as it also greatly improves styling. FWD cars suffer from the huge front overhang/wheels to close to the A-pillar under bite look.

 

I would have hoped Ford would come out with a real luxury car on a RWD chassis with a beautiful interior, the MKS sounds overpriced for what is essentially a re-skinned Taurus.

Edited May 18, 2008 by Blueblood

[TomServo92]

They are same steering wheel, the MKS wheel is darker in color, has the same exact buttons, an added strip of aluminum, and some fake plastic wood on the top of the rim. It's like comparing a Fusion and a Milan, same cars, the Milan just has a bit of extra flash, I don't why people are in denial. Ford needs to really step up it's game, Lincoln is getting beat by Hyundai as of right now.

 

IF they've upgraded the materials, then I don't see it as being the exact same wheel, only the same general design. However, since I've not actually seen the MKS wheel in person, I'll refrain from further comment.

[igor]

They are same steering wheel, the MKS wheel is darker in color, has the same exact buttons, an added strip of aluminum, and some fake plastic wood on the top of the rim. It's like comparing a Fusion and a Milan, same cars, the Milan just has a bit of extra flash, I don't why people are in denial. Ford needs to really step up it's game, Lincoln is getting beat by Hyundai as of right now.

yes they are the same - although the MKS seems larger ... but it might have been a mind trick - I see no way Ford would take a Fusion wheel and make a 110% version of it (but that is how the MKS wheel felt ...

 

 

sure the leather is nicer, the airbag cover felt better (I did not touch the buttons so no comment there) - but the wheel is the same.

 

Igor

[TomServo92]

yes they are the same - although the MKS seems larger ... but it might have been a mind trick - I see no way Ford would take a Fusion wheel and make a 110% version of it (but that is how the MKS wheel felt ...

 

 

sure the leather is nicer, the airbag cover felt better (I did not touch the buttons so no comment there) - but the wheel is the same.

 

Igor

 

If that's the case, then there's something I don't understand: why would a car like the Focus get a unique wheel but not the MKS? That doesn't make any sense to me. I can vouch for the fact that the Fusion wheel has a very solid feel to it but the MKS wheel should be more unique.

Edited May 18, 2008 by TomServo92

[igor]

Considering I took those pictures I think I can say whether or not the interior is crap, everything is cheap looking and cheap feeling, you'll find out when they show up on dealer lots.

 

I guess it's a good Accord competitor, the Accord's interior is much much better though, I have to wonder if those comparing it to German luxury cars have ever been in one of those cars!! It's like comparing a Rolex to a Casio.

 

Ford needs to decide who they are going to target with Lincoln, all the gizmo's in the world won't matter if the interior looks like crap.

 

And yea, I haven't driven one either, but at least in competitor's cars I don't have a drive wheel where my feet should be because they aren't wrong wheel drive, and that's a huge part of a fine luxury automobile, as it also greatly improves styling. FWD cars suffer from the huge front overhang/wheels to close to the A-pillar under bite look.

 

I would have hoped Ford would come out with a real luxury car on a RWD chassis with a beautiful interior, the MKS sounds overpriced for what is essentially a re-skinned Taurus.

 

OK I agreed on the steering wheel - but the interior is cheap? The only part that could be nitpicked (IMO) - are the controls for the rear occmupants, and MAYBE the corporate side-view mirror knob (identical to Focus).

 

The whole interior felt very well crated, solidly built and packed with smart details - the controls are 5 steps ahead of anything Lincoln has used before and right on par with any other luxury car I have sat in over the years (BMW, Mercedes and Lexus included). The buttons are also another step above the Flex (which itself has great buttons).

 

I saw absolutely no complaints with the interior unless you absolutely HATE the matte-grey center stack - I do not.

 

I was really impressed - I expected worse.

 

Igor

[igor]

double post ....

Edited May 18, 2008 by igor

[Bigbuck15]

Who's actually goin to get in the MKS and say,this steering wheel looks like the fusion's steering wheel,who the hell cares.

[suv_guy_19]

Who's actually goin to get in the MKS and say,this steering wheel looks like the fusion's steering wheel,who the hell cares.

 

 

Exactly. Like I said, people are really having to reach to find problems now.

[TomServo92]

Who's actually goin to get in the MKS and say,this steering wheel looks like the fusion's steering wheel,who the hell cares.

 

 

Exactly. Like I said, people are really having to reach to find problems now.

 

There's nothing wrong with the Fusion wheel. It's very solid and better materials will only make it that much better. Also, it's miles better than the wheel in our 2002 Lincoln LS. I only question that many Ford products, including the Focus, have unique wheels. Why not the MKS?

[Mark B. Morrow]

What does an old Crown Vic say about a person?

 

GET OFF MY LAWN!

[BORG]

The center stack is my favorite feature of the interior, it's a very elegant and tidy design without being too mushy and soft looking like Lexus. It's a very well sculpted and fitted design with a strong artchitectural look that flows purposefully from the dash, I loved sitting behind it. It seems to be just right. At first I was displeased by the amount of black plastic in the car, but the material quality is very high so it feels high end. The door trim and some of the other carry-over switchgear don't excite me, but it's all made of higher quality materials than in my MKX and MKZ (particularly the MKZ). The seats remind me of my MKX, which are absolutely brilliant.

 

As a former owner of the blandly styled LS interior, I always asserted that the material quality always made up for its design shortcomings. No matter how swanky the MKZ interior looked, it's all fiction because the material quality is so bad. The MKS delivers on all points IMO.

 

The only thing that needs serious improvement and which can't be done easily is the rear fender which is just enormous thanks to the way the rear belt line rolls up and over to the tiny tail-lamp. I think I prefer the 2010 Taurus for the way it is managing the proportions of this chasis..

Edited May 18, 2008 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

They are same steering wheel, the MKS wheel is darker in color, has the same exact buttons, an added strip of aluminum, and some fake plastic wood on the top of the rim. It's like comparing a Fusion and a Milan, same cars, the Milan just has a bit of extra flash, I don't why people are in denial. Ford needs to really step up it's game, Lincoln is getting beat by Hyundai as of right now.

Yeah. Exactly the same except for real wood, better leather, better air bag cover materials, and aluminum trim.

 

And having spent time in the competition, I can say without doubt that the Lincoln doesn't have far to reach to trump Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, Mercedes, and BMW when it comes to ergonomics. Those vehicles, Mercedes and BMW especially, are a NIGHTMARE ergonomically.