2009 Ford Edge Refresh

[RichardJensen]

By saying something is not original, and then providing an opposite example, means you think the 427 is "original", or THE original.

Minus all your attempts to deflect the question, the only points that have been established without doubt are the points I asserted in the statement that set you off.

 

The FT-SX came AFTER the 427, Fusion, and Ford's public statements that the 427 represented the 'new face of Ford.'

 

From this I drew the conclusion that Toyota's designers either knew or should've known they were copying Ford.

 

The only valid argument you have supplied to counter this is:

 

"Toyota could've copied anyone else."

 

But you have not furnished any evidence to support that argument.

Edited June 7, 2008 by RichardJensen

[pcsario]

It's like this:

 

I said, basically, "Toyota intentionally copied Ford"

 

You said, "no they didn't"

 

I said, basically, "the 427 came out before the ST-FX, Ford said it was the 'new face of Ford', Toyota designers almost certainly knew this and put a very similar grille on the FT-SX, ergo, most likely, they intentionally copied Ford."

 

You said, "they could've copied anyone else."

 

I said prove it.

 

You didn't.

 

And so here we are.

 

Yes, here were are, I'm waiting for you to prove how "Toyota intentionally copied Ford" (and no one else), which --by your own admission-- you claimed first. And no, just because the truth hurts doesn't change the fact Dave only worked for the Edge, and there's NO way to sustain the idea Toyota based their entire future around it.

Edited June 7, 2008 by pcsario

[pcsario]

Minus all your attempts to deflect the question, the only points that have been established without doubt are the points I asserted in the statement that set you off.

 

The FT-SX came AFTER the 427, Fusion, and Ford's public statements that the 427 represented the 'new face of Ford.'

 

From this I drew the conclusion that Toyota's designers either knew or should've known they were copying Ford.

 

The only valid argument you have supplied to counter this is:

 

"Toyota could've copied anyone else."

 

But you have not furnished any evidence to support that argument.

 

And you did?

 

News flash, it wasn't only the FT-SX, a shitload of Toyota/Lexus concepts have been released with those type of grilles since then, doesn't prove they EVER intented to put the actual grilles in production cars. To them those grilles are just generic concept eye candy. You assumed the rest.

 

Why don't you take your assumption further and claim the entire world ripped off Ford after and before the 427, despite the fact you admit their idea isn't original, and that Dave only did something for the Edge, but failed for everything else? If Honda had announced, literally, that a POS would be used in their grilles, I doubt Toyota's HQ would've ordered their design department to cover their cars with shit. It doesn't work that way, you assumed it did.

 

And I love this statement:

"I drew the conclusion that Toyota's designers either knew or should've known they were copying Ford."

 

Once again you're too embarrased to say "I ASSUMED" (because you know what they say about that), you pass as fact that Ford was the target, you pass Dave as a brilliant innovation in design, and deem whoever does it from now on in whatever form "unoriginal", because Ford decided to put a blue oval on a generic idea "first".

Edited June 7, 2008 by pcsario

[timmm55]

What?????

Toyota copying a Ford?

[Extreme4x4]

Wow........... good boxing match.

 

I didn't even have to pay for Pay-per-view.

 

I think the smart guy is going to win/is winning................ as usual.

[rmc523]

It would also make little kids scream if they saw it in the dark.

 

Um....it makes me scream in the light too.

[Sixt9coug]

What?????

Toyota copying a Ford?

 

 

lol i actually really like those. a friend showed me one from a Toyota forum with a 302 transplant. 3/5 Torino i guess

[RichardJensen]

Once again you're too embarrased to say "I ASSUMED" (because you know what they say about that), you pass as fact that Ford was the target

Again, a little bit of education is in order.

 

The facts are as follows:

 

1) Ford released the 427 before the FT-SX

 

2) Ford said that the 427's grille, among other features, would be seen on future Ford products.

 

3) Toyota showed a concept with a grille similar to Ford's new 'signature' grille.

 

None of these FACTS can be disputed.

 

Now the conclusion (which can be disputed) is this:

 

Toyota designers were aware that the grille they incorporated on the FT-SX was similar to the one on the 427.

 

---------------

 

You can either argue

 

1) Toyota designers were UNAWARE of the similarity

 

2) Toyota designers were AWARE of the 427, but were copying a different design instead of the 427.

 

3) Toyota designers, while AWARE of the 427 were UNAWARE of the similarity between grilles.

 

Plausible arguments for #1:

 

"It is not reasonable to believe that Toyota designers follow Ford's actions so closely as to know what their intentions were as far as the 427 is concerned"

 

"FT-SX designers may have been aware at one time, but had forgotten by the time they penned the FT-SX"

 

----

 

Ultimately, those arguments conceded the underlying premise: That the FT-SX has a grille similar to the 427's

 

----

 

Plausible arguments for #3:

 

"The FT-SX designers were aware of the 427, but could not have reasonably considered the FT-SX grille an imitation, as their primary focus was the grille shape and placement of the Toyota badge (the elements that HAVE been moved to production cars)--the decision to use an admittedly similar grille was a comparative afterthought."

 

"The FT-SX designers felt the 427's signature elements were the strong horizontal aspect and the use of chrome, and that the trapezoidal and taller non-chrome FT-SX grille was not really a copy."

 

----

 

These arguments concede that the FT-SX designers considered the 427 during design of the FT-SX (this admits to the basic conclusion, but denies that the decision to imitate was a logical consequence of the designer's knowledge.

 

----

 

And now we get to argument 2, we've done them out of order because I'd like to draw special attention to argument 2.

 

Why? Because argument 2 involves denying every aspect of my conclusion. Why is this interesting?

 

Because, due to a deep and abiding personal dislike, I believe PC cannot allow himself to agree with ANY conclusion I draw. He can agree to the facts qua facts.

 

But he insists on the most absurd interpretation in order to disagree with me as completely as possible.

 

----

 

Plausible arguments for #2:

 

-----

 

Toyota was copying the ________________

 

Please note that this requires furnishing an actual counter example. Something PC has thus far failed to do.

 

He has even gone so far as to suggest that it is MY responsibility to provide the evidence to back his argument.

 

----

 

It should be noted also, for reference, that as the debate has continued, PC's red herring arguments have moved farther and farther afield.

 

Based on my factual statement that the 427 preceded the FT-SX PC would have you believe that I "pass Dave as a brilliant innovation in design".

 

PC has, in fact painted himself into a corner, and now the only recourse he has (since he has firmly adopted argument #2) is to summon various straw men and red herrings to divert your attention from the question:

 

Did Toyota designers knowingly use Ford design cues in the FT-SX?

Edited June 7, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Anthony]

Well after reading the three on-topic posts and the pictures of the Toyota, I can say say its not as horrid as you guys are making it out to be. With exception to its "H.R. Giger" grille, its not bad looking at all. If I was shopping the Edge or Flex, I'd give it a look as well (heaven forbid).

[Edstock]

 

The Toyota concept, above, couldn't have been in the design pipe-line longer than = IMHO = 18 months - 24 months.

 

So, when design on this started in Spring 2006, was the Ford Tri-bar a Ford styling statement that world-class designers in other companies would reasonably be expected to know about?

[RichardJensen]

The FT-SX seen above was revealed at New York in March 2005.

[Edstock]

And they let the Highlander soldier on into a new boring body when they had that?

Edited June 8, 2008 by Edstock

[FLLMTR]

And they let the Highlander soldier on into a new boring body when they had that?

 

My thoughts exactly. Geez, that Toyo looks a lot hotter than the Edge. The only flaw I see is that chicken leg gear shifter sticking out of the dash board.

[timmm55]

My thoughts exactly. Geez, that Toyo looks a lot hotter than the Edge. The only flaw I see is that chicken leg gear shifter sticking out of the dash board.

 

He was saying he didn't like the Highlander. The Toyo is an imitation in the usual Japanese tradition. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery, but is seldom better. The Toyota looks lumpier.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Refering back to the initial post, It looks sorta like what you'd expect to produce if you mated a Matrix with a Camry. Its not bad looking, and I'd certainly consider it, but, I think it may run afowl of the "I hate stinkin' station wagons" crowd.