Full -blown Transits are coming

[theoldwizard]

My mistake on GCWR vs. GVWR.

 

The GVWR for the E450 is indeed 14,500lbs. (V-10/diesel)

 

However, most RV websites list a combined GCWR of about 20,000lbs for E450 based motorhomes.

I found the same thing.

 

5,500 lbs towing capacity seems very "light" for the E-450, especially since the F-350 have a GCWR/GVWR of 23,500/15,000 (8,500 lbs tow capacity) with a 4.10 read axle.

[Bob Rosadini]

But here's the thing: Commercial vehicles is not where Ford is losing money, it's not where Ford has spent the last two decades wandering around.

 

The E-Series is a simple enough vehicle and it has the highest capacities/sales in its class.

 

The Transit is a slightly more complicated vehicle, and has the highest capacities/sales in its class.

 

This IMO gets to the heart of the matter. Ford has clearly been the market leader in commercial vehicles but that is about to change if they don't wake up. While there have been 6 pages of discussion on E vs. Transit, someone did point out the fact that a lot of the high end volume formerly owned by the E-series has moved up into conventional cabs such as the 4500/5500 GM, Freightliners and 4000 series Internationals- in particular as ambulance and heavy rescue type trucks. Ford's 550 and 650 could cover that market- the issue is, do they have the resolve at this point to jump into the fight, or will this be declared a "non-core" business and will they retreat.

 

7Mary3 refers to the demise of Bluediamond. That has to be a given and the big question will be, does Ford throw in the towel (remember, Ford is the market leader in class 6) or do they regroup and start cranking out 650/750 at another Ford plant- duh!! Like maybe KTP?

 

Keep in mind, Ford owned the van business- in particular when they were the only ones building a BOF van while GM/Mopar were cranking out unibody cheeseboxes. that has changed- at least in the case of GM. Hopefully Ford as it battles for survival is smart enough to recognize where its strengths (and loyal customer base) reside, and go after those markets. this may mean in the short term that there are two very distinct classes of vehicle that can serve the market and go after both. In time, the market will dictate what survives.

[RichardJensen]

Isn't GM dropping some of its class 4-7 business?

[Bob Rosadini]

Isn't GM dropping some of its class 4-7 business?

I guess you could say yes from a manufacturing viewpoint. International is going to start building the trucks with GM badges at an International facility "to be announced". But while I worry that Ford will succumb to the pressures from "brilliant industry analysts" who will suggest they have to focus on their "core business", it seems GM haws allready done that. While granted the big numbers drop in pick up sales is something you have to address, are we saying that the commercial market is going away?

No- but what we are saying is the yuppie who thought it was cool to have a pick up to tool around in on weekends is probably not going to be buying s new 3/4 ton. And while that calls for scaling back production, I have to believe that GM has over reacted.

[Joe771476]

Replying to a few posts: First: It appears that the E-series is selling better than the Sprinters. You might ask how I can tell. Well, like the Super Duties, the two vertical side scoops on the grille on the new E-series are more rectangular. The new Sprinters have the crease line drooping in front. Second: while I admit I do see some International and Freightliner ambulances, I think they are simply too much truck for what they're doing. And I don't think they are as nimble and quick as the E-series. Third: I've always wondered how those tall Sprinters keep from rolling over; have you ever seen the small tires they put on those things!? Four:The LCF as an ambulance chassis? Well I just saw a Ford LCF with nothing but a small utility body on it!

[Biker16]

Biker:

 

 

2) Sharing steering wheels, IP clusters, HVAC controls, stereo, yes, that makes sense. But not much past that. In short, very little parts sharing between the E-Series/Transit, that could not also be done between the E-Series/F-150/Super Duty.

 

 

Not as bad as the Power Stroke, but still that's a mouthful, and the 5.0L block promises to be only an inch or so shorter and a couple inches narrower than this beast. Do not forget that the mod blocks are extremely tall (they carry about a 2" skirt below the crankshaft centerline and they have very long strokes for their displacement. It would require a major modification of the Transit face to accommodate any mod powerpack. Not to mention a larger transmission tunnel.

 

What GM did was to share thier upmarket P/U IP with thier SUVs, and keep the crappier ones for the lower trimlevels. either way thier ip are the same From thier HD to thier LD trucks. the differences are because of trim level.

 

WE don't know what it would take to fit a V8 in the transit.

[Biker16]

 

 

took at the 2004 Paris autoshow.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Biker16

[battyr]

 

 

took at the 2004 Paris autoshow.

 

Where do you guys get these pictures?

[RichardJensen]

What GM did was to share thier upmarket P/U IP with thier SUVs, and keep the crappier ones for the lower trimlevels. either way thier ip are the same From thier HD to thier LD trucks. the differences are because of trim level.

 

WE don't know what it would take to fit a V8 in the transit.

Actually, if you look at the other pic, you'll see leather seats and a nav. unit on the allegedly 'crappy' dash.

 

What GM did was create very different dashboards for reasons that are not entirely clear.

 

---

 

I can't tell you what it would take to fit the 4.6 derived 5.0 in the Transit exactly, but I can tell you that the powerpack will displace far more volume than the I5 & I4 engines in the Transit.

 

And I can tell you that "Well, it can hold the I-5 long. and the I-4 transverse so it should be able to hold a V8" line of reasoning doesn't quite cut it.

 

Why?

 

Because all the rest of the underhood space is filled with the accessories, reservoirs, wires, and hoses that will need to be placed with a V8.

 

A V8 block will need all the accessories, reservoirs, wires, and hoses that the I-4 & I-5 will need, PLUS, it will occupy well over twice the volume of the I-4 & I-5 engines. Go ask Blueblood how compact the mod V8 is.

 

In short, for the V8 to be a comfortable fit in the Transit, you would need to be able to fit a second 4-cylinder in it.

 

---

 

And I reiterate, the only reason to cram a V8 in the Transit is to eliminate a problem that doesn't really exist. Neither the Transit nor the E-Series are under any kind of pricing pressure, nor are either products unprofitable, nor is there any evidence in the sales of Freightliner & Dodge Sprinters that the US market wants this kind of vehicle in lieu of the E-Series.

Edited July 21, 2008 by RichardJensen

[battyr]

I was reading the histoy of the Transit and the older versions had an inline 6, 3.0 L V-6 gas and many diesels. I was wrong about the V-6 diesel. One company made a hybrid add-ons that double the width of the engine in the front. Just because older models have bigger engines is no guarantee that a given engine will fit. But it could.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, it looks like the transit has no dog house. The engine is located infront of the firewall. It looks like it has a lot of width and if a longer engine does not fit it would not take much to make a design changes and pull the bumper forward a few inches.

 

The US is a huge market. The Transit has to be what people want to buy. It won't sell if the Sprinter has a larger engine. I thinks it will do very well if Ford can keep the price down and use the engines that Americans want.

[Biker16]

Where do you guys get these pictures?

 

I took one of them when I was in Paris. the other is from Ford media site.

 

 

I can't tell you what it would take to fit the 4.6 derived 5.0 in the Transit exactly, but I can tell you that the powerpack will displace far more volume than the I5 & I4 engines in the Transit.

 

And I can tell you that "Well, it can hold the I-5 long. and the I-4 transverse so it should be able to hold a V8" line of reasoning doesn't quite cut it.

 

Why?

 

Because all the rest of the underhood space is filled with the accessories, reservoirs, wires, and hoses that will need to be placed with a V8.

 

A V8 block will need all the accessories, reservoirs, wires, and hoses that the I-4 & I-5 will need, PLUS, it will occupy well over twice the volume of the I-4 & I-5 engines. Go ask Blueblood how compact the mod V8 is.

 

In short, for the V8 to be a comfortable fit in the Transit, you would need to be able to fit a second 4-cylinder in it.

 

---

 

And I reiterate, the only reason to cram a V8 in the Transit is to eliminate a problem that doesn't really exist. Neither the Transit nor the E-Series are under any kind of pricing pressure, nor are either products unprofitable, nor is there any evidence in the sales of Freightliner & Dodge Sprinters that the US market wants this kind of vehicle in lieu of the E-Series.

 

 

do you have personal knowledge of the cost of fitting the V8 to the transit?

 

please stop trying to explain to us why it won't fit. because you really don't know.

 

The transit is coming to the US, because it offers better economy for the light duty market and is more flexible, in meeting the needs of the light duty market. Plus the E series is going on 20+ years old. it replacement would be more expensive than developing 2 replacements for the E-series and Transit. there ae many different shades in this equation, not just the black and White you presume.

 

Richard We have done this dance before.

[RichardJensen]

do you have personal knowledge of the cost of fitting the V8 to the transit?

I know a 5.0L V8 powerpack has a good shot at being twice the size of an I-5 or an I-4 powerpack.

 

And I know that there is little to no demand for a V8 Transit in Europe.

 

And I know that fitting a V8 to the Transit would most certainly require major changes to its design.

 

And I know that there is no real need to redesign the FRAME of the E-Series (you see, the E-Series is a BOF vehicle, and while the BODY may be a bit outmoded, the FRAME is certainly NOT.

 

Furthermore, I invite you to look at everything I've typed. And I want you to look hard at it, and I want you to read ALL of it, and I want you to ask yourself, "did Richard say anything about the COST of adapting a V8 to the Transit?"

 

Because, as you'll note, if you actually READ what I type, I do NOT say ANYTHING about COST.

 

What I am talking about is your insistence that, somehow, merging two TOTALLY different vehicles that are optimally suited to their markets will work.

 

And, once again, I call "liger" on your "lets mate a lion and a tiger" argument.

[RichardJensen]

And believe me, in calling 'liger', I'm being kind. In reality, the E-Series & Transit are more different than lion and tiger.

 

bear and eagle is more like it.

[suv_guy_19]

And believe me, in calling 'liger', I'm being kind. In reality, the E-Series & Transit are more different than lion and tiger.

 

bear and eagle is more like it.

 

And these:

 

 

Aren't very good workers.

[wescoent]

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

 

The Transit IS being sold here right now... it's called the Sprinter.

 

Compare those sales figures with the E-Series.

 

Figure out which style American van-buyers prefer.

[RichardJensen]

I don't understand why this is so complicated.

 

The Transit IS being sold here right now... it's called the Sprinter.

 

Compare those sales figures with the E-Series.

 

Figure out which style American van-buyers prefer.

But, see, the idea is to do what Ford engineers have studied and refused to do for the past 25 years: Merge the E-Series and Transit, in order to get a vehicle that is too narrow for US cube van builders, and which is too heavy and wastes too much space for the Euro market.

 

It's biker's beagle.

[Dale143]

But, see, the idea is to do what Ford engineers have studied and refused to do for the past 25 years: Merge the E-Series and Transit, in order to get a vehicle that is too narrow for US cube van builders, and which is too heavy and wastes too much space for the Euro market.

 

It's biker's beagle.

Lets look at a paragraph from an article I posted a while ago.

 

Econoline, Transit: After decades of flirting with the idea, Ford plans to Move to a single global full-size van platform. The van, code-named V363, will be BASED on the Transit van now sold in Europe. The Transit is available in a variety of sizes and configurations, including FWD and RWD.

 

 

Now in my twisted mind what may be a possibility here is:

ECONOLINE,TRANSIT-used together gives me an idea that it may be a blended design.

MOVE-tells me it may be a totally different design.

BASED ON-Tells me it may be a new design based on both the Transit and The econolin.

I dot know,its just a thought.

 

http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradvisor/2...fitability.html

[RichardJensen]

And in my twisted mind, that project is doomed to failure for all the reasons I've stated above, and then some.

 

This is as stupid a project as Ford has undertaken in the last 20 years.

Edited July 21, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Ford is gearing up for the Ford world global van to keep it's design & production costs down it looks like it is going to be the Transit.

[RichardJensen]

Ford is gearing up for the Ford world global van to keep it's design & production costs down it looks like it is going to be the Transit.

Yeah. That's a helluva good idea. Piss away 3 decades worth of superiority in a market segment in the name of 'efficiency'.

 

Sprinter is selling so well, that Daimler is building a plant here... Oh wait, it's selling so lousy that Daimler CANCELED PLANS to build a plant here.

 

Let's just replace the SuperDuty with the global Ranger while we're at it.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Yeah. That's a helluva good idea. Piss away 3 decades worth of superiority in a market segment in the name of 'efficiency'.

 

Sprinter is selling so well, that Daimler is building a plant here... Oh wait, it's selling so lousy that Daimler CANCELED PLANS to build a plant here.

 

Let's just replace the SuperDuty with the global Ranger while we're at it.

 

Well l guess Ford think that have to start somewhere Richard, l agree with what you say decades of building up a something will all disappear down the plug hole, but the bean counters are running the show these days and shaving some bucks off van design by having one van type instead of two is the right thing to do to them, but to you and me we can see that they will be pissing off 3 decades worth of hard earned loyal customers in the process but l don't think the Transit will disappoiont even though what you all ready have is just a good. Beancounters strike again

[RichardJensen]

what you all ready have is just a good

What we have is BETTER than the Transit. It's got a SIGNIFICANTLY higher published GCWR, and that's discounting what are likely very different testing methodologies between FoE & FNA.

 

Transit max GCWR is around 14,000lbs. E-Series max GCWR is around 20,000lbs.

 

Plus, I haven't seen jack for Sprinter based cube vans/panel trucks, and that's pretty much where the E-Series lives--cutaways, cab/chassis, and stripped chassis.

[RichardJensen]

And don't think you guys are getting off easy either.

 

Likely YOUR next Transit is going to be a bloated inefficient beast in order to accommodate the demands of the US market.

 

Thing is, Ford sells about as many E-Series as Transits, so it's not like you can just tell the E-Series customers to piss off. Likely Ford will be telling customers on BOTH SIDES of the Atlantic to piss off.

[Biker16]

Yeah. That's a helluva good idea. Piss away 3 decades worth of superiority in a market segment in the name of 'efficiency'.

 

Sprinter is selling so well, that Daimler is building a plant here... Oh wait, it's selling so lousy that Daimler CANCELED PLANS to build a plant here.

 

Let's just replace the SuperDuty with the global Ranger while we're at it.

 

the ROTW is growing faster than the Us and Europe and that's where ford must go to market their VANs.

 

the transit like the EUro focus is better suited to the ROTW markets like China and India. We will be looking at 500k Van per year in the near future , it breaks down this way. 320/180 K Transit and E-series. The US market looks to be stagnant or in decline for the Foreseeable future

 

The "One Ford" philosophy understands at it root that we cannot afford to duplicate efforts around the world We cannot continue to invest in 2 separate Vans when it is possible to move to a single architecture.

 

If the transit could be developed to cover all the bases, why not replace the E-series with it?

 

I will say it again A V8 transit would change The US Van market.

[suv_guy_19]

I will say it again A V8 transit would change The US Van market.

 

 

Your right. Ford will lose its lead and join the likes of Chrysler in sales numbers.