akirby Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 oops, you must have forgotten about this part of your post, which was replying to my post... I reposted that info for you also... Perhaps you might read your own posts too????? Sean The only option to "change what you can't accept" in this case is through the courts. The dealer is a business owner and has the right to sell their products for whatever price they choose. The consumer is free to purchase or not. The fact that the dealer and customer disagree over the price is not something that should be taken to the court, the BBB or the news media unless a contract has been broken or a crime has been committed. If you have a point them make it and stop being so cryptic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatwaggon Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 (edited) What a totally fascinating thread on human nature and on how personality traits can really shape and entrench poor life choices. Forget Ford and buying cars. This is Dr. Phil and Jerry Springer rollled into one. I am going to have to totally root for the dealer on this one. Fmorisso, you've got an x-plan pin, go to another dealer and use that pin. By this time of year anything you order will take much much less time to turn around. Otherwise you've got whatever's coming to you, and I think everybody can already see, it's not going to be $1,030. And if that queer analogy to a gila monster is what sustains you in your pig-headed fight to the bitter end of a legal battle you have zero chance of winning (because you're just plain wrong), then more gila power to you. The law is the law. The law permits the dealer to do whatever he's doing. The law isn't going to make an exception just because some manager lost their temper with you (I would too). And you're just plain mad at all of the above and want to hurt them back. That's really the bottom line for you, is it not? This actually brings up another really fascinating topic: ordering a 2009 model year vehicle in the early months of 2008 and then pulling hairs out wondering why it takes them so long to deliver. Edited September 18, 2008 by Meatwaggon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsGadget Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 This actually brings up another really fascinating topic: ordering a 2009 model year vehicle in the early months of 2008 and then pulling hairs out wondering why it takes them so long to deliver. My beef is not that it takes so long in general, but that some people are getting them much quicker than others only because of where they live and who they deal with. But oh well, who said life was fair? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 My beef is not that it takes so long in general, but that some people are getting them much quicker than others only because of where they live and who they deal with. But oh well, who said life was fair? And Ford would be more than happy to deal directly with the customers and bypass allocation problems, etc. All you need to do is get those pesky state automotive franchise laws repealed. It would also help if Ford got rid of more dealers but once again that would be illegal. So they have to buy them out one at a time. The solutions are never as easy as people like to believe. Customers are never locked into a dealer. Sometimes you pick a bad one. See point #2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorriso Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) I offer the attached PDF more as an FYI service to the other three (possibly more) folks who have been supplied "Produced Dates" on the VIN tracking forum but don't' yet know when the next step (Gate Release) will occur. At least you know you aren't the only one affected. The one exception is the one for PBarth, which has a Gate Release date, but no ship date. All four five vehicles were produced between September 10-12, 2008. ViperPilot has already responded to one of the affected customers, and like he said, it's anybody's guess as to what is behind the delay. Unless a Ford employee from KCAP wants to volunteer additional information, all we can do for now is bump our VIN tracking requests every few days and see what happens. SeptemberDelayedGateRelease.pdf Edited September 20, 2008 by fmorriso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorriso Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) For those that are interested, the attached PDF provides some insights into the vehicle tracking database I came up with to help keep track of vehicles via the information the ViperPilot provides over on the VIN tracking forum. I've limited it to Ford Escape Hybrids for the most part. Yes, I know. This is a perfect example of "...the devil's workshop". Try to smile and realize that I only created this "system" in the last four days. I haven't been working on it for the entire five months since I ordered my 2009 FEHL. :stats: I do get out of the house for the occasional ice hockey game. (I noticed few things I needed to fix and uploaded a revised PDF). FordVehicleTrackingDatabaseSchema.pdf Edited September 20, 2008 by fmorriso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
09feh Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 (edited) For those that are interested, the attached PDF provides some insights into the vehicle tracking database I came up with to help keep track of vehicles via the information the ViperPilot provides over on the VIN tracking forum. I've limited it to Ford Escape Hybrids for the most part. Yes, I know. This is a perfect example of "...the devil's workshop". Try to smile and realize that I only created this "system" in the last four days. I haven't been working on it for the entire five months since I ordered my 2009 FEHL. :stats: I do get out of the house for the occasional ice hockey game. Prior to cancelling my April 28 - 2009 fehl order (which still hasn't arrived), I had conversation with two dealers and one Ford representative. All three were very "fictional" in their account of how the allocation system worked. They were "certain" that there was no way people who ordered AFTER me were getting their vehicles BEFORE I got mine,,, Until I formulated and sent them this list... (The list is outdated since early september) Once they reviewed the list, All three ADMITTED that Ford plays favorites with their delaerships. After getting them to admit it directly, I have to chuckle at any post I read that somehow tries to blame the Dealer for not getting customers their vehicles faster... Ford ultimately decides when and where the vehicles go... See attached and ENJOY! Well, it won't let me upload a file, so I'll just print the contents here! Thanks Blueovalforums! This list does not include Escape Hybrid AWD, but those vin numbers are available. VIN: 1FMCU49389KA25134 Receipt Date: 5/9/2008 Serialize Date: 7/18/2008 Segment Date: 7/18/2008 Sequence Date: 7/22/2008 Blend Date: 8/11/2008 Produced Date: 8/20/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/22/2008 Ship Date: 8/22/2008 VIN: 1FMCU59389KA32266 Receipt Date: 5/20/2008 Serialize Date: 7/31/2008 Segment Date: 7/31/2008 Sequence Date: 8/1/2008 Blend Date: 8/15/2008 Produced Date: 8/26/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/26/2008 Ship Date: 8/26/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49329KAxxxxx –The one I ordered…….. Receipt Date: 4/28/2008 Serialize Date: 8/7/2008 Segment Date: 8/7/2008 Sequence Date: Blend Date: Produced Date: Gate Release Date VIN: 1FMCU49329KA25047 Receipt Date: 5/31/2008 Serialize Date: 7/18/2008 Segment Date: 7/18/2008 Sequence Date: 7/22/2008 Blend Date: 7/24/2008 Produced Date: 8/18/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/21/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49359KA25138 Receipt Date: 6/20/2008 Serialize Date: 7/18/2008 Segment Date: 7/18/2008 Sequence Date: 7/22/2008 Blend Date: 7/24/2008 Produced Date: 8/19/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/22/2008 Ship Date: 8/22/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49319KA17585 Receipt Date: 5/7/2008 Serialize Date: 6/26/2008 Segment Date: 6/26/2008 Sequence Date: 7/10/2008 Blend Date: 7/17/2008 Produced Date: 8/11/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/12/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49329KA24948 Receipt Date: 6/26/2008 Serialize Date: 7/18/2008 Segment Date: 7/18/2008 Sequence Date: 7/22/2008 Blend Date: 7/25/2008 Produced Date: 8/19/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/20/2008 Ship Date: 8/21/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49309KA17643 Receipt Date: 6/2/2008 Serialize Date: 6/26/2008 Segment Date: 6/26/2008 Sequence Date: 7/10/2008 Blend Date: 7/17/2008 Produced Date: 8/11/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/13/2008 Ship Date: 8/14/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49319KA17599 Receipt Date: 4/28/2008 Serialize Date: 6/26/2008 Segment Date: 6/26/2008 Sequence Date: 7/10/2008 Blend Date: 7/17/2008 Produced Date: 8/11/2008 Gate Release Date: 8/12/2008 Ship Date: 8/12/2008 VIN: 1FMCU493X9KA01076 Receipt Date: 5/8/2008 Serialize Date: 5/15/2008 Segment Date: 5/15/2008 Sequence Date: 6/10/2008 Blend Date: 6/16/2008 Produced Date: 6/24/2008 Gate Release Date: 6/24/2008 Ship Date: 6/24/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49369KA11832 - Maroone Ford Receipt Date: 4/29/2008 Serialize Date: 5/29/2008 Segment Date: 5/29/2008 Sequence Date: 7/2/2008 Blend Date: 7/9/2008 Produced Date: 7/17/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/17/2008 Ship Date: 7/17/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49329KA02304 Receipt Date: 5/7/2008 Serialize Date: 5/15/2008 Segment Date: 5/15/2008 Sequence Date: 6/11/2008 Blend Date: 6/17/2008 Produced Date: 6/26/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/1/2008 Ship Date: 7/1/2008 Receipt Date: 5/6/2008 Serialize Date: 5/29/2008 Segment Date: 5/29/2008 Sequence Date: 7/3/2008 Blend Date: 7/10/2008 Produced Date: 7/18/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/21/2008 Ship Date: 7/20/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49389KA17762 Receipt Date: 5/10/2008 Serialize Date: 6/26/2008 Segment Date: 6/26/2008 Sequence Date: 7/8/2008 Blend Date: 7/15/2008 Produced Date: 7/24/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/24/2008 Ship Date: 7/25/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49369KA14942 Receipt Date: 5/23/2008 Serialize Date: 5/29/2008 Segment Date: 5/29/2008 Sequence Date: 7/3/2008 Blend Date: 7/10/2008 Produced Date: 7/18/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/18/2008 Ship Date: 7/18/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49399KA06821 Receipt Date: 5/19/2008 Serialize Date: 5/22/2008 Segment Date: 5/22/2008 Sequence Date: 6/18/2008 Blend Date: 6/25/2008 Produced Date: 7/3/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/9/2008 Ship Date: 7/10/2008 1FMCU49399KA02297 Receipt Date: 5/10/2008 Serialize Date: 5/15/2008 Segment Date: 5/15/2008 Sequence Date: 6/11/2008 Blend Date: 6/18/2008 Produced Date: 6/26/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/17/2008 Ship Date: 7/18/2008 VIN: 1FMCU94GX9KA01229 Receipt Date: 4/26/2008 Serialize Date: 5/15/2008 Segment Date: 5/15/2008 Sequence Date: 6/10/2008 Blend Date: 6/16/2008 Produced Date: 6/24/2008 Gate Release Date: 6/30/2008 Ship Date: 6/30/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49389KA06907 Receipt Date: 5/12/2008 Serialize Date: 5/22/2008 Segment Date: 5/22/2008 Sequence Date: 6/25/2008 Blend Date: 7/2/2008 Produced Date: 7/14/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/16/2008 Ship Date: 7/16/2008 VIN: 1FMCU49359KA06881 Receipt Date: 4/28/2008 Serialize Date: 5/22/2008 Segment Date: 5/22/2008 Sequence Date: 6/17/2008 Blend Date: 6/23/2008 Produced Date: 7/1/2008 Gate Release Date: 7/13/2008 Ship Date: 7/14/2008 Edited September 20, 2008 by 09feh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I think it would be fair to say that most dealers, if they are being questioned as to whether they are treating a customer right, would be inclined to point blame to Ford Motor Company and not own up to their own mistakes. It is always easier to blame the big guy and say they play favorites to certain dealers if the dealer might have some questionable issues in their relationship with Ford that has caused problems in the past. I chuckle also at those that think dealers do not do questionable things that affect their spots in line as vehicles are produced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
09feh Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 I think it would be fair to say that most dealers, if they are being questioned as to whether they are treating a customer right, would be inclined to point blame to Ford Motor Company and not own up to their own mistakes. It is always easier to blame the big guy and say they play favorites to certain dealers if the dealer might have some questionable issues in their relationship with Ford that has caused problems in the past. I chuckle also at those that think dealers do not do questionable things that affect their spots in line as vehicles are produced. What questionable thing do you think the dealer that I ordered my 09fehl did to keep them from getting it? The dealer placed the order just two days after I was in his showroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 What questionable thing do you think the dealer that I ordered my 09fehl did to keep them from getting it?The dealer placed the order just two days after I was in his showroom. I did not say your dealer did I? Take your personal feelings out of it man. Maybe your dealer placed the order 2 days after you were in your showroom and maybe they did not. Maybe your dealer is a good one and maybe they are not. I certainly don't know for sure. Can you say with absolute certainty that this particular dealer has never done anything which has caused them to not get the allocations allowed to them? Also, dealers do not order through Ford directly. They order through regional pools of allotments and it could be that there are some other dealers in the same regional pool as your dealer that have done things to cause problems that affect all the dealers in that grouping. Again, I don't know. I simply replied that one cannot always take a dealers' word for things and just assume the problem is on the manufacturer's side of the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
09feh Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 I did not say your dealer did I? Take your personal feelings out of it man. Maybe your dealer placed the order 2 days after you were in your showroom and maybe they did not. Maybe your dealer is a good one and maybe they are not. I certainly don't know for sure. Can you say with absolute certainty that this particular dealer has never done anything which has caused them to not get the allocations allowed to them? Also, dealers do not order through Ford directly. They order through regional pools of allotments and it could be that there are some other dealers in the same regional pool as your dealer that have done things to cause problems that affect all the dealers in that grouping. Again, I don't know. I simply replied that one cannot always take a dealers' word for things and just assume the problem is on the manufacturer's side of the table. Green, I apologize if that post came accross as sarcastic, typed conversation has a way of doing that. I was genuinely concerned as to what kind of mis-steps you are typing about. What would cause a dealer to get "black-listed"? Also, I understand about the regional pools, but the dealer 100 miles away (if in the same pool) is getting 09fehl's for stock, while the dealer I ordered from still doesn't have the one that I (they) ordered in April. Viperpilot proved by vin that the order was placed on 04/28...just two days after, so we know they placed the order on time. Even if the dealer isn't a "Ford Favorite", is there ANYONE reading this thread that thinks some dealerships should be getting orders for STOCK while other dealers have special order customers waiting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfs Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 Dealers are under no obligation to accept x plans. X-plan must be announced before any negotiating on a vehicle (in the rules.) Ford can allow price protection on retail orders (and usually does.) Ford can pass price increases to dealers on retial orders without any price protection (as they did in 2005 on the FEH.) Dealers know what their allocation is on highly controlled vehicles. Dealers get updates on scheduling, production interuptions and controlled commodities every week. Dealers control the prioritazation of their orders (assuming no commodity constraints.) Dealers often take orders for units above and beyond their allocation in the hope that commodity constraints, cancelled orders, dealers going out of business, etc. will free up scheduling and they may get an extra unit or two. Sales Managers do not always share all scheduling, allocation, incentive and pricing information they have with sales personnel. Sales personnel often guess and assume things that may not be factual based on their prior experience. Ford personnel and dealers are instructed to stop conversations with customers when they threaten to sue. The customer's lawyers can take it up with Ford or dealership lawyers. The job of the customer relations personnel is to answer your question (if the answer is in their data base) document your concern and transmit it back to your dealership for handling. If the concern requires additional review, it will be forwarded to the field manager that calls on the dealership and they will review it with the dealership for handling. Now you know. :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 That is a pretty good explanation of some of the backoffice details on orders. Thanks dfs. 09, no offense taken...I just wanted to make sure you knew I was not talking about your dealer in my post but rather dealers as a whole. I don't know how the regions in your area are set so the one 100 miles away could very well be in a different region. For example, I am in Louisville, KY and the dealer I use is not in the same regional grouping as the other dealers here in Louisville. He is grouped with dealers in Northern KY/Cincinnati area. Does not make sense to me but hey, I don't make those rules. Viper also had a post in this thread earlier that sums up a lot on this matter. I understand the OP's views on the pricing and am sympathetic to a degree but as it has been pointed out numerous times the dealer 1)has no obligation to accept x-plan pricing, 2)x-plan discussions are to be initiated prior to ordering a vehicle (so then both the dealer AND the consumer know the price that has been agreed to), 3)the dealer is allowed to pass along price increases if Ford Motor Co. passes those on to the dealer, 4)I do not believe anything has ever been cited here that shows there was an agreed upon purchase price for the vehicle in question. Personally, I would have left this dealer a long time ago and gone and ordered a vehicle from another dealer that was more upfront (see, I don't think this dealer acted the best in working with the OP). I am pro consumer in all circumstances but I also believe that we consumers have to act properly ourselves and cut bait when things are not working out. I am also sorry that you had problems with your order but am glad you found another vehicle that you could get from a 'stock' order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottfisher Posted September 21, 2008 Share Posted September 21, 2008 I'm just glad my ordered vehicle has not been built yet and is sitting in a quarantine corral waiting to be shipped. Whether reason be supplier or other reason for the hold on shipment, I hope they work it out before mine goes down the line. And as for the rest of this montage, what did Rodney King say ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorriso Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 I'm just glad my ordered vehicle has not been built yet and is sitting in a quarantine corral waiting to be shipped. Whether reason be supplier or other reason for the hold on shipment, I hope they work it out before mine goes down the line. And as for the rest of this montage, what did Rodney King say ? From an email sent to me today at around Noon (EDT) from the General Sales Manager: (name of salesman) checked with me on your Hybrid, and it looks like it has been shipped and is in transit. I bumped my VIN tracking request to see if the above can be independently confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatwaggon Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 From an email sent to me today at around Noon (EDT) from the General Sales Manager: (name of salesman) checked with me on your Hybrid, and it looks like it has been shipped and is in transit. I bumped my VIN tracking request to see if the above can be independently confirmed. Thanks partly or mainly to your efforts your request is almost uncertainly NOT going to be independently confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorriso Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 Thanks partly or mainly to your efforts your request is almost uncertainly NOT going to be independently confirmed. Opinion duly noted and given the weight it deserves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorriso Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 (edited) The attached PDF shows screen shots of the system I wrote to help track the production progress of vehicles, using only publicly available information on the vehicle tracking forum. I posted a more detailed explanation of it on the Wish List topic that I started a while back, so I won't repeat it here. FordVehicleTrackingSystem.pdf Edited September 23, 2008 by fmorriso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 23, 2008 Share Posted September 23, 2008 The attached PDF shows screen shots of the system I wrote to help track the production progress of vehicles, using only publicly available information on the vehicle tracking forum. I posted an more detailed explanation of it on the Wish List topic that I started a while back, so I won't repeat it here. Who would use this and for what purpose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorriso Posted September 23, 2008 Author Share Posted September 23, 2008 Who would use this and for what purpose? I would like Ford to make something like this available for people to track the progress of their vehicle's production online (since it can take a while in some cases ). A full-blown system would be password protected so you would only see your own information. It would be automatically updated periodically (perhaps nightly) from information available elsewhere within Ford. No more calling the dealer to find out if your vehicle has been "Blended" or "Gate Released". Think self-service. It won't eliminate the dealer (the laws being what they are for the moment) but will begin the inevitable march into the 21rst Century that Ford CRM so badly needs. :stats: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meatwaggon Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 (edited) Opinion duly noted and given the weight it deserves. Yet another failure to own up to your actions. Don't you see a pattern emerging? Edited September 24, 2008 by Meatwaggon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricC5Vett Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Thanks partly or mainly to your efforts your request is almost uncertainly NOT going to be independently confirmed. Yes, this is quite apparently the case, I will surely second that! Doesn't look like anyone here will be getting any independent confirmations on anything pertaining to order progress tracking anymore. I think this particular thread has carried on way too long and some administrator ought to lock it, just my 2 cents... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricC5Vett Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 The attached PDF shows screen shots of the system I wrote to help track the production progress of vehicles, using only publicly available information on the vehicle tracking forum. I posted a more detailed explanation of it on the Wish List topic that I started a while back, so I won't repeat it here. You must have WAY too much time on your hands, why don't you get a job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
09feh Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Surely there must be a Corvette site you can attack people on?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmorriso Posted September 24, 2008 Author Share Posted September 24, 2008 Yes, this is quite apparently the case, I will surely second that! Doesn't look like anyone here will be getting any independent confirmations on anything pertaining to order progress tracking anymore. I think this particular thread has carried on way too long and some administrator ought to lock it, just my 2 cents... What do you call a person who doesn't have enough confidence to debate others in the arena of ideas, so he seeks to silence those with whom he disagrees with by demonizing them? :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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