I Can't See Flex Not Flopping

[Daryll40]

Exaggerate much? Last time I checked (June sales) a lot of people were still buying Trucks, SUVs, Crossovers and Minivans.

 

Ford can still make more on 200,000 F150s than Honda can make on 200,000 Fits. Or maybe I should say 200,000 f150s and 100,000 Fiestas.

 

Ah, last I looked Ford lost $8B (merely $6B if you exclude lease write-offs that are honest losses that should NOT be excluded) while Honda booked an upside profit surprise. Maybe Ford CAN make more an the F150 than Honda can on the Fit, but who has been consistently profitable and who has been consistently (excluding the minor profit blip last quarter) in crisis (big loss) mode?

 

You are drinking the Motown Kool Aid. Again, I'll concede that Flex (and MKS) seem to be world class vehicles in their category. But wake up and smell the $4 gas. But "their category" just shrunk by a huge amount at best and may go extinct at worst.

[NickF1011]

Ah, last I looked Ford lost $8B (merely $6B if you exclude lease write-offs that are honest losses that should NOT be excluded) while Honda booked an upside profit surprise. Maybe Ford CAN make more an the F150 than Honda can on the Fit, but who has been consistently profitable and who has been consistently (excluding the minor profit blip last quarter) in crisis (big loss) mode?

 

You are drinking the Motown Kool Aid. Again, I'll concede that Flex (and MKS) seem to be world class vehicles in their category. But wake up and smell the $4 gas. But "their category" just shrunk by a huge amount at best and may go extinct at worst.

 

That loss wasn't because F-150's aren't making money, I assure you.

 

Seriously, your doom-and-gloom crap is getting tiring. As for waking up and smelling the $4 gas...I filled up for $3.69 yesterday. :P

[akirby]

Ah, last I looked Ford lost $8B (merely $6B if you exclude lease write-offs that are honest losses that should NOT be excluded) while Honda booked an upside profit surprise. Maybe Ford CAN make more an the F150 than Honda can on the Fit, but who has been consistently profitable and who has been consistently (excluding the minor profit blip last quarter) in crisis (big loss) mode?

 

You are drinking the Motown Kool Aid. Again, I'll concede that Flex (and MKS) seem to be world class vehicles in their category. But wake up and smell the $4 gas. But "their category" just shrunk by a huge amount at best and may go extinct at worst.

 

So if you were running Ford you'd cancel all Trucks, SUVs and V6 crossovers and only sell 4 cylinder vehicles and hybrids?

 

I guess Honda should cancel the Pilot and Odyssey and Toyota should cancel the Tundra, LandCruiser and Sienna?

 

Go look at July sales when they're published and see how many vehicles were sold that get 17/24 or less. I guarantee it will be more than a few.

[NickF1011]

I guess Honda should cancel the Pilot and Odyssey and Ridgeline and every Acura except the TSX and RDX and Toyota should cancel the Tundra, LandCruiser and Sienna and 4Runner and Seqouia and Venza and every single Lexus?

Edited July 30, 2008 by NickF1011

[Daryll40]

So if you were running Ford you'd cancel all Trucks, SUVs and V6 crossovers and only sell 4 cylinder vehicles and hybrids?

 

I guess Honda should cancel the Pilot and Odyssey and Toyota should cancel the Tundra, LandCruiser and Sienna?

 

Probably Honda and Toyota will cancel or curtail some of that. The huge difference is that those two are (at least perceived to be) basically quality small car companies with a few expanded offerings. The Americans are basically now hulking SUV and truck companies with a few average small car offerings.

 

Over on the "DEALER" board dealers were asked how Flex is doing. The one reply so far was that Flex WAS generating traffic, but no one has bot even one yet and that Flex is probably the wrong product for the times. I believe that is pretty much my original post here.

[akirby]

Probably Honda and Toyota will cancel or curtail some of that. The huge difference is that those two are (at least perceived to be) basically quality small car companies with a few expanded offerings. The Americans are basically now hulking SUV and truck companies with a few average small car offerings.

 

Over on the "DEALER" board dealers were asked how Flex is doing. The one reply so far was that Flex WAS generating traffic, but no one has bot even one yet and that Flex is probably the wrong product for the times. I believe that is pretty much my original post here.

 

Curtail some of that? But you said NOBODY will buy those products due to their HORRIBLE fuel economy. Why don't they just cancel them like you think Ford should cancel the Flex?

 

We'll see tomorrow when July sales come out, but I expect Flex to be in the 4,000 range for July. This is a vehicle that will sell like gangbusters in certain areas and not do well at all in others. It's polarizing, but those who like it will jump for it, especially if they're moving from an Expedition.

[NickF1011]

Over on the "DEALER" board dealers were asked how Flex is doing. The one reply so far was that Flex WAS generating traffic, but no one has bot even one yet and that Flex is probably the wrong product for the times. I believe that is pretty much my original post here.

 

Actually the only DEALER who even responded to your tripe was a small dealer who only even had 3 of them in stock.

[phiftywon]

Over on the "DEALER" board dealers were asked how Flex is doing. The one reply so far was that Flex WAS generating traffic, but no one has bot even one yet and that Flex is probably the wrong product for the times. I believe that is pretty much my original post here.

 

 

Actually the only DEALER who even responded to your tripe was a small dealer who only even had 3 of them in stock.

 

owned!! :slap:

[akirby]

I just saw a brand new one at lunch today, so I guess they'll have to wait until tomorrow before they stop selling completely.

[NickF1011]

I just saw a brand new one at lunch today, so I guess they'll have to wait until tomorrow before they stop selling completely.

 

[igor]

Probably Honda and Toyota will cancel or curtail some of that. The huge difference is that those two are (at least perceived to be) basically quality small car companies with a few expanded offerings. The Americans are basically now hulking SUV and truck companies with a few average small car offerings.

 

Over on the "DEALER" board dealers were asked how Flex is doing. The one reply so far was that Flex WAS generating traffic, but no one has bot even one yet and that Flex is probably the wrong product for the times. I believe that is pretty much my original post here.

Darryl,

 

so what is your opinion on the last week's announcement? 6 C-cars, double I4 production .. all in the next 2 years - I cannot think opf a more blatant way to state "oour culture has changed"

 

Flex is what it is - a large 7 seater vehicle - it is on top of its class FE wise - and there will alwayus be SOME people that will need more than five (or more than five + 2) seats. They will need full-sized third row - and if they do, there is no handicap for Flex - it is tied for best in class mileage (and it has the best mileage if you exclude the half-size smaller Highlander)

 

Ford is re-focusing very swiftly - as the statement from last week said - they are betting the house on C-cars - not even Cd cars - they are going straight for C- card:

Focus

Focus CC

Capri

Kuga/Escape

C-Max

and there may be more.

 

These will all e exclusively (or primarily) I4 vehicles with MPG (at least) in the very high 20's and most in the mid-to-high-30's These are the cars Ford is betting the house on - they are breaking even on Focus and anything else they sell. They are even breaking even on hybrids. they have spent over a year now frantically realigning the company so they DO become Honda or Toyota in making money on all (most) of their vehicles (even Honda and Toyota lose money on hybrids - Ford does not anymore).

 

Sure yuou might say "too late" but I do not think so - turnaround takes place, and we have known that the models that are coming will not come before 2010. the Fiesta is the only one truly sorely missed in the lineup at the present, and it is the one that truly needs sped up (but that is impossible at this time). The others are coming as was expected since 2006 when Mark Fields and Bill Ford positioned Ford NA on the trajectory to make profitable small cars.

 

I think your doom and gloom is MUCH more appropriate of GM and Chrysler or of Ford before Mulally, before Fields, and before Kuzak. Small cars are KING at Ford right now. C2 is the cornerstone of their next 10 years - they are betting the farm that these six new small cars will save the company. They are sweating blood to make sure that they will be best-in-class, competitively priced, yet profitable. They are perfectly AGREEING with you assertions.

 

Igor

[NickF1011]

C2 is the cornerstone of their next 10 years - they are betting the farm that these six new small cars will save the company.

 

I have to disagree with this assertion. They are doing anything BUT betting the farm on them. Are they going to be spending a lot of money to get them here faster? You bet. But they are still going to rely HEAVILY on what they have always relied on: Trucks. Trucks are not going to simply vanish and will still play as critical a role in the health of Ford's future as the C-car lineup will. By trucks I mean everything not a car: pickups, SUVs, crossovers.

 

Ford will not survive by being a one trick pony. They will only stick around by offering a COMPREHENSIVE vehicle lineup that has something for almost everybody. That means vehicles like the Fiesta, the Focus, the F-150, the Mustang, and yes, the Flex.

[igor]

I have to disagree with this assertion. They are doing anything BUT betting the farm on them. Are they going to be spending a lot of money to get them here faster? You bet. But they are still going to rely HEAVILY on what they have always relied on: Trucks. Trucks are not going to simply vanish and will still play as critical a role in the health of Ford's future as the C-car lineup will. By trucks I mean everything not a car: pickups, SUVs, crossovers.

 

Ford will not survive by being a one trick pony. They will only stick around by offering a COMPREHENSIVE vehicle lineup that has something for almost everybody. That means vehicles like the Fiesta, the Focus, the F-150, the Mustang, and yes, the Flex.

I never said they would be one trick pony .. however anything with a frame underneath has just became a quickly declining segment .. it wil lstabilize, but it will be at a lower volume. Even larger unitbody vehicles like Flex, Taurus etc will have to settle for some decline over the next year or so.

 

Ford will NOT STOP makign these vehicles, but besides milking the most of the declining segments they have only one optoion - milk the heck out of the newly popular ssegments - if the C2 vehicles fail, Ford is done for - they will become GMC or something similarly meaningless and limited in scope. C2 is the one big shot they have in the next 2 years to make a splash in the marketplace and turn their fortunes around .. sure the others are also important, they need the small cars the most .. and not just for the sales. They need them to learn how to sell small cars profitably.

 

 

if they can make money on the FOcus,m they can make MORE money on Fusion, Edge, and even F150

you get my drift?

 

This is their chance to truly turn their culture around. This GIANT project is

1) truly global - this is not Fiesta, where Ford EU is delivering a completed car for assembly in Mexico - Ford is working together globally developing this platform and all the cars

2) it is small and efficient - so it is something Ford NA is not used to - not on this scale ..

yet

3) it is positioned so it can make money and make sense for the bottom line of the company - it is not just an appendix to make good impression on the journalists - it is truly an integral part of the plan.

 

Truly thie C2 is the TRUE culture change inside the company, The leadership has changed, but the company will not haver a chance to learn how to operate under this new mindset before C2 - that is why it is SO CRUCIAL for Ford.

 

The rest of the lineup will not disappear, but Ford and Ford NA epsecially has been doing a good job already there. But they have to learn how to make great, profitable, global, small cars... and that will be a big lesson to learn. And if they learn it, and can do it - the rest of the company, and the rest of the lineup will only benefit.

 

Igor

[NickF1011]

I never said they would be one trick pony .. however anything with a frame underneath has just became a quickly declining segment .. it wil lstabilize, but it will be at a lower volume. Even larger unitbody vehicles like Flex, Taurus etc will have to settle for some decline over the next year or so.

 

Ford will NOT STOP makign these vehicles, but besides milking the most of the declining segments they have only one optoion - milk the heck out of the newly popular ssegments - if the C2 vehicles fail, Ford is done for - they will become GMC or something similarly meaningless and limited in scope. C2 is the one big shot they have in the next 2 years to make a splash in the marketplace and turn their fortunes around .. sure the others are also important, they need the small cars the most .. and not just for the sales. They need them to learn how to sell small cars profitably.

 

 

if they can make money on the FOcus,m they can make MORE money on Fusion, Edge, and even F150

you get my drift?

 

This is their chance to truly turn their culture around. This GIANT project is

1) truly global - this is not Fiesta, where Ford EU is delivering a completed car for assembly in Mexico - Ford is working together globally developing this platform and all the cars

2) it is small and efficient - so it is something Ford NA is not used to - not on this scale ..

yet

3) it is positioned so it can make money and make sense for the bottom line of the company - it is not just an appendix to make good impression on the journalists - it is truly an integral part of the plan.

 

Truly thie C2 is the TRUE culture change inside the company, The leadership has changed, but the company will not haver a chance to learn how to operate under this new mindset before C2 - that is why it is SO CRUCIAL for Ford.

 

The rest of the lineup will not disappear, but Ford and Ford NA epsecially has been doing a good job already there. But they have to learn how to make great, profitable, global, small cars... and that will be a big lesson to learn. And if they learn it, and can do it - the rest of the company, and the rest of the lineup will only benefit.

 

Igor

 

Well since you put it THAT way....I agree with you 100%. :yup:

[Daryll40]

Darryl,

 

so what is your opinion on the last week's announcement? 6 C-cars, double I4 production .. all in the next 2 years - I cannot think opf a more blatant way to state "oour culture has changed"

 

Flex is what it is - a large 7 seater vehicle - it is on top of its class FE wise - and there will alwayus be SOME people that will need more than five (or more than five + 2) seats. They will need full-sized third row - and if they do, there is no handicap for Flex - it is tied for best in class mileage (and it has the best mileage if you exclude the half-size smaller Highlander)

 

Ford is re-focusing very swiftly - as the statement from last week said - they are betting the house on C-cars - not even Cd cars - they are going straight for C- card:

Focus

Focus CC

Capri

Kuga/Escape

C-Max

and there may be more.

 

These will all e exclusively (or primarily) I4 vehicles with MPG (at least) in the very high 20's and most in the mid-to-high-30's These are the cars Ford is betting the house on - they are breaking even on Focus and anything else they sell. They are even breaking even on hybrids. they have spent over a year now frantically realigning the company so they DO become Honda or Toyota in making money on all (most) of their vehicles (even Honda and Toyota lose money on hybrids - Ford does not anymore).

 

Sure yuou might say "too late" but I do not think so - turnaround takes place, and we have known that the models that are coming will not come before 2010. the Fiesta is the only one truly sorely missed in the lineup at the present, and it is the one that truly needs sped up (but that is impossible at this time). The others are coming as was expected since 2006 when Mark Fields and Bill Ford positioned Ford NA on the trajectory to make profitable small cars.

 

I think your doom and gloom is MUCH more appropriate of GM and Chrysler or of Ford before Mulally, before Fields, and before Kuzak. Small cars are KING at Ford right now. C2 is the cornerstone of their next 10 years - they are betting the farm that these six new small cars will save the company. They are sweating blood to make sure that they will be best-in-class, competitively priced, yet profitable. They are perfectly AGREEING with you assertions.

 

Igor

 

 

My opinion is that I hope gas prices cool at least enough so that Ford, GM and C survive to get to new lineups. And that our economy muddles through as well. As a member of the investor class, I want the American economy to survive, and that includes the auto industry.

[fordmantpw]

I just saw a brand new one at lunch today, so I guess they'll have to wait until tomorrow before they stop selling completely.

 

Nope, it will have to wait until Friday. Our order for our new Flex Limited is being submitted tomorrow morning! :happy feet:

[NickF1011]

Nope, it will have to wait until Friday. Our order for our new Flex Limited is being submitted tomorrow morning! :happy feet:

 

Congrats!!!

[fordmantpw]

Congrats!!!

 

Thank you!!

 

My wife is excited (it's her car that I only get to drive to church on the weekends ), even though she doesn't want to get rid of her '03 Escape.

 

On a side note, we have an '03 Escape XLT loaded with leather for sale if anyone is interested.

[FordFanForEver]

Thank you!!

 

My wife is excited (it's her car that I only get to drive to church on the weekends ), even though she doesn't want to get rid of her '03 Escape.

 

On a side note, we have an '03 Escape XLT loaded with leather for sale if anyone is interested.

 

What church you attend?

[fordmantpw]

What church you attend?

 

Catholic

[NickF1011]

I belong to the Church of Religious Consciousness. Would you care to make a donation?

[Daryll40]

I belong to the Church of Religious Consciousness. Would you care to make a donation?

 

This is saying what I said back at the beginning of this thread:

 

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/cont...ampaign_id=yhoo

[NickF1011]

This is saying what I said back at the beginning of this thread:

 

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/cont...ampaign_id=yhoo

 

It's not as if the Flex's fuel economy is lousy for a vehicle that seats seven. In fact, it's pretty darn good—20% better than a Ford Explorer (BusinessWeek.com, 9/1/06) and 28% better than a Ford Expedition (BusinessWeek.com, 2/20/07). It compares well with the GMC Acadia (BusinessWeek.com, 7/14/06) and the Buick Enclave (BusinessWeek.com, 8/24/07) (19 mpg combined)

 

Oh...and look at this little gem:

 

Through the end of June, only 1,379 Flexes have been sold

 

June?? What month is it now? David Kiley is a moron. He has proven it repeatedly. It was Ford's worst-selling light truck? NO SHIT, SHERLOCK, it wasn't even on sale the entire month and many dealers didn't see a single one until July.

Edited August 1, 2008 by NickF1011

[Daryll40]

Oh...and look at this little gem:

 

 

 

June?? What month is it now? David Kiley is a moron. He has proven it repeatedly. It was Ford's worst-selling light truck? NO SHIT, SHERLOCK, it wasn't even on sale the entire month and many dealers didn't see a single one until July.

 

So what are you expecting for July? 4000 I think you said? When does that number come out (today?)?

[NickF1011]

So what are you expecting for July? 4000 I think you said? When does that number come out (today?)?

 

Today or tomorrow. Not really sure. Yeah, 4000 is my guess for now. A little less than they were expecting, but then again, what large vehicles ARE performing entirely to expectations right now?