Why McCain would be a mediocre president

[Floyd Lawson]

And you were the guy who got nasty over someone else's misfortune of being out of work for a year, so don't get sanctimonious with me, especially considering that with all your "intellect", you don't a damn thing about the job market in Detroit, especially for people with an industrial sales background. I doubt that anyone is worried on either side. Each side gets a bump in the poll after the conventions. Let's see how those numbers look after the debates. I doubt the GOP will be able to continue to define the race on the usual "family values" rhetoric with debate moderators asking specific policy questions. Let's see who gets the last laugh then. Bottom line is that with this weeks GOP convention, very little was revealed regarding the GOP & McCain's platform on specific policy issues.

I don't remember getting nasty, maybe blunt, not nasty. But my advice to you is if the job market is so bad either leave the area or change vocations, but stop whinning "woe is me". And since you bring intellect into the conversation, how smart is it to back a Democrat when you live in a state controlled Democrats and you are unemployed. I just think you like the pity.

[Floyd Lawson]

They had nothing to say about any of it. McCain is trying to win it on promises of change.

 

What I want to know is, why didn't he change anything about corruption and lobbyists in almost three decades serving in the House and Senate?

 

The only thing of substance he has to run on is his service record, which he used last night. It took up about a quarter of his speech. I commend him and respect him for that, but sitting in a POW camp for 6 years does not make you presidential material.

No, but it makes him MORE qualified than Obama, who never served and actually has ties with people who hate this country, does that make him more qualified?

Above all John McCain is a war hero and this country owes him and the others who served a great deal of gratiude.

[Len_A]

I don't remember getting nasty, maybe blunt, not nasty. But my advice to you is if the job market is so bad either leave the area or change vocations, but stop whinning "woe is me". And since you bring intellect into the conversation, how smart is it to back a Democrat when you live in a state controlled Democrats and you are unemployed. I just think you like the pity.

Questioning how I can Let" my wife "support" me qualifies in my book as nasty. Leaving the area is a possibility if we can avoid losing every dime on our ten year old house, but I still have some drawbacks trying to conduct the same career in a new area, too numerous to mention. Tell me, what was a Democrat governor going to do to positively affect the economy of an area dominated by three Fortune 500 companies whose market share is dropping like a stone? Economically, we were doing fine under the Clinton administration. I was worried about what a potential Gore administration would do to the Detroit auto companies, so like a bunch of other Detroit area residents, I voted for Bush in 2000. Some great benefit to voting for an oil man for President. Really helped keep the price of gas down. Not.

 

And screw you on the whining comment - you don't know me, you don't know my profession, and you have no clue what is going on in the Southeast Michigan area. You don't like what I post, go to another thread.

[Floyd Lawson]

Questioning how I can Let" my wife "support" me qualifies in my book as nasty. Leaving the area is a possibility if we can avoid losing every dime on our ten year old house, but I still have some drawbacks trying to conduct the same career in a new area, too numerous to mention. Tell me, what was a Democrat governor going to do to positively affect the economy of an area dominated by three Fortune 500 companies whose market share is dropping like a stone? Economically, we were doing fine under the Clinton administration. I was worried about what a potential Gore administration would do to the Detroit auto companies, so like a bunch of other Detroit area residents, I voted for Bush in 2000. Some great benefit to voting for an oil man for President. Really helped keep the price of gas down. Not.

 

And screw you on the whining comment - you don't know me, you don't know my profession, and you have no clue what is going on in the Southeast Michigan area. You don't like what I post, go to another thread.

"And screw you", now who's getting nasty. You're right I don't know you, but I know you whine a lot, I've got many friends in the Detroit area, I know a lot more about it than you give me credit for. Dropping market share has little to do with the economy, more to do with product offerings. The market that was lost was picked up by the transplants who during this same period of time have built new plants in the US. Maybe you need to relocate near Lexington Ky. or in Indiana where some of these plants are. Do you notice a trend as to where these plants are locating? Your state being run by Dems, who have never seen a tax that they didn't like, has not created an economic environment that is conducive to businesses to relocate there. Michigan is an economically dead state and the leadership has done little to fix it.

[Pioneer]

Cindy McCain's outfit pegged at $300k

Do you honestly think a husband that can afford for his wife to wear an outfit that has the value of a very nice house really gives a damn about working man?

 

Honestly, sometimes these elitist Republicans really make me sick.

[Floyd Lawson]

Cindy McCain's outfit pegged at $300k

Do you honestly think a husband that can afford for his wife to wear an outfit that has the value of a very nice house really gives a damn about working man?

 

Honestly, sometimes these elitist Republicans really make me sick.

Good old class envy. How many millionaires do you think there are in that picture in your signature, those hockey players? What's wrong with having money, it's rich people that provide jobs for working class people. You may want to take a class in economics.

[Ron W.]

Cindy McCain's outfit pegged at $300k

Do you honestly think a husband that can afford for his wife to wear an outfit that has the value of a very nice house really gives a damn about working man?

 

Honestly, sometimes these elitist Republicans really make me sick.

 

 

McCain's fierce saffron shirt dress with the popped collar, diamond earrings, four-strand pearl necklace, white Chanel watch and strappy shoes totaled up to $313,100.

 

HOLY SHIT

 

I'm gonna have to get a real job, would take years to make that kind of money.

[Imawhosure]

"And screw you", now who's getting nasty. You're right I don't know you, but I know you whine a lot, I've got many friends in the Detroit area, I know a lot more about it than you give me credit for. Dropping market share has little to do with the economy, more to do with product offerings. The market that was lost was picked up by the transplants who during this same period of time have built new plants in the US. Maybe you need to relocate near Lexington Ky. or in Indiana where some of these plants are. Do you notice a trend as to where these plants are locating? Your state being run by Dems, who have never seen a tax that they didn't like, has not created an economic environment that is conducive to businesses to relocate there. Michigan is an economically dead state and the leadership has done little to fix it.

 

Floyd,

 

This is exactly why I don't understand some of these people. If you do the "who's who, of who's broke" as far as the states, they are virtually all run by democrats with big taxing authoritys. (unless they lost the election in the last cycle) They can't get manufacturers to move in, and the blue collar people are suffering terribly.

 

You would think people would get a clue when a manufacturer says it is going to move out; then low and behold, EVEN the democrats get it and offer them tax credits to stay.

 

Undeniable truth of economics-------------->BUSINESSES WILL FLEE TAXES and relocate where the taxes are cheaper since it is a fixed cost of doing business which must be included in the product, or the bottomline. When will some of you learn this obvious truth? It has been happening for years, so not a one of you who claim to be reasonably intelligent has any excuse NOT to be aware of this fact.

 

And what is many of your solutions due to brilliance, lolol. RAISE TAXES ON BUSINESS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

You will never learn; ever, will you. You help chase your own jobs away, then you blame people who want to keep business taxes low for doing it. Do you realize now how many of us become so FRUSTRATED and FLABBERGASTED at some of the illogic logic some of you spout.

 

I understand you are listening to politicians and it sounds good, but for cry eye, you now have a visual track record or graph of what happens if you listen to them. It is all over the place. If taxes rise, businesses leave to areas where less taxes against them are levied.

 

I live on the border of Indiana and Illinois. In Indiana gas taxes are cheaper, so the price of fuel is lower. Guess what kinda plate 3/4 of the cars have that are in the border Indiana gas stations. That's right, ILLINOIS!!!!

 

If a regular American can figure out that LESS taxes on a product means more money in their pockets, what do you think a business can figure out with CPAs?!?!!?!?!

 

Go ahead, vote to punish them. Go ahead and be a fool. They will pick up and leave you sitting not worrying about the taxes you pay, but rather if you are going to make enough money to pay any taxes at all!

 

It is not that ANY of us think it is fair, or right, but it is REALITY. Kinda like if you are a man with children and get a divorce, the odds are over 90% you are going to pay CHILDSUPPORT, and only get visitation. That to is REALITY.

 

And yet, you are willing to vote AGAINST what is real on the premise of SHANG RI-LA. Go ahead, vote for the premise the messiah offers, and see how things end up; above and beyond what the price of gas will be, AFTER you remove an oil man from the Whitehouse, lolol. I can't wait to see who you claim is the bogeyman then, but knowing how some of these people think, it will no doubt be the people who wanted to drill to save you in the first place. Go figure liberal logic if you can!!!!!

Edited September 5, 2008 by Imawhosure

[Len_A]

"And screw you", now who's getting nasty. You're right I don't know you, but I know you whine a lot, I've got many friends in the Detroit area, I know a lot more about it than you give me credit for. Dropping market share has little to do with the economy, more to do with product offerings. The market that was lost was picked up by the transplants who during this same period of time have built new plants in the US. Maybe you need to relocate near Lexington Ky. or in Indiana where some of these plants are. Do you notice a trend as to where these plants are locating? Your state being run by Dems, who have never seen a tax that they didn't like, has not created an economic environment that is conducive to businesses to relocate there. Michigan is an economically dead state and the leadership has done little to fix it.

And you can still stick the "whine" comment. Someone stating that they've been out of work isn't whining. And, no, I'm not giving you much credit for knowing much about the Detroit area. You're right, there's been a lot of growth in manufacturing plants else where in the country, including growth by the transplants. I will tell you, based on experience, that the transplants have a different business model, and the kind of industrial sales I've done, isn't nearly as easy to perform with the transplants - Japanese and German alike (and I worked for a German fastener company for a couple of years).

 

You may want to ask your friends in Detroit, if they work in the auto industry, just how many vendor sales people they see in the plants these days, and I don't just mean GM, Ford, and Chrysler, but the suppliers, the utilities, and the refineries and chemical plants. My friends, hourly and salaried, and my relatives, hourly and salaried, are answering "not many, if any".

 

I've got good reason to bitch - Detroit went from an industrial sales mecca to an industrial sales no-man's land. At least a half a dozen industrial products distributors went under since 2000, and Michigan's business tax structure had less to with it than either losing business with GM, Ford, and Chrysler, or losing profit margin because the same three companies drive acquisition prices down to the bone. Grainger, one national company I've worked for fourteen years ago, took a million-and-a-half dollar write off on the business they were doing with the Detroit Three. And Michigan's tax structure had nothing to do with it, because the inventory for that Detroit Three business was staged an hour away in Ohio.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Len_A

[Floyd Lawson]

Floyd,

 

This is exactly why I don't understand some of these people. If you do the "who's who, of who's broke" as far as the states, they are virtually all run by democrats with big taxing authoritys. (unless they lost the election in the last cycle) They can't get manufacturers to move in, and the blue collar people are suffering terribly.

 

You would think people would get a clue when a manufacturer says it is going to move out; then low and behold, EVEN the democrats get it and offer them tax credits to stay.

 

Undeniable truth of economics-------------->BUSINESSES WILL FLEE TAXES and relocate where the taxes are cheaper since it is a fixed cost of doing business which must be included in the product, or the bottomline. When will some of you learn this obvious truth? It has been happening for years, so not a one of you who claim to be reasonably intelligent has any excuse NOT to be aware of this fact.

 

And what is many of your solutions due to brilliance, lolol. RAISE TAXES ON BUSINESS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

You will never learn; ever, will you. You help chase your own jobs away, then you blame people who want to keep business taxes low for doing it. Do you realize now how many of us become so FRUSTRATED and FLABBERGASTED at some of the illogic logic some of you spout.

 

I understand you are listening to politicians and it sounds good, but for cry eye, you now have a visual track record or graph of what happens if you listen to them. It is all over the place. If taxes rise, businesses leave to areas where less taxes against them are levied.

 

I live on the border of Indiana and Illinois. In Indiana gas taxes are cheaper, so the price of fuel is lower. Guess what kinda plate 3/4 of the cars have that are in the border Indiana gas stations. That's right, ILLINOIS!!!!

 

If a regular American can figure out that LESS taxes on a product means more money in their pockets, what do you think a business can figure out with CPAs?!?!!?!?!

 

Go ahead, vote to punish them. Go ahead and be a fool. They will pick up and leave you sitting not worrying about the taxes you pay, but rather if you are going to make enough money to pay any taxes at all!

 

It is not that ANY of us think it is fair, or right, but it is REALITY. Kinda like if you are a man with children and get a divorce, the odds are over 90% you are going to pay CHILDSUPPORT, and only get visitation. That to is REALITY.

 

And yet, you are willing to vote AGAINST what is real on the premise of SHANG RI-LA. Go ahead, vote for the premise the messiah offers, and see how things end up; above and beyond what the price of gas will be, AFTER you remove an oil man from the Whitehouse, lolol. I can't wait to see who you claim is the bogeyman then, but knowing how some of these people think, it will no doubt be the people who wanted to drill to save you in the first place. Go figure liberal logic if you can!!!!!

Here's a good one for all you libs:

 

"I'll make oil companies like Exxon pay a tax on their windfall profits, and we'll use the money to help families pay for their skyrocketing energy costs and other bills," the Illinois senator said.

Obama quoted from Reuters, June 2008

So this idiot is basically saying he'll tell corprations and businesses when their profits are excessive and then take that money and redistribute it to the masses. So today it's the oil companies, tomorrow it's the automotive companies or the mom & pop ice cream store on the corner. This is communism at it's worse and you people buy this crap and then you want to sit and complain about jobs being outsourced. Give me a break.

[mulewright]

And what did Thompson (who should have stayed on Law & Order), Giuliani, Palin, and McCain propose during this convention mention in the way of real proposals to fix the economy, end the foreclosure crisis, get more people health care, or make the country safer? Am I missing something, or did they not even gloss over the issues? Where was the GOP platform on health care? Where were they on the Detroit auto industry? On the financial markets and the foreclosure situation?

 

This may come as a surprise to you but proposing exactly what they are going to do isn't what happens in convention speeches, Obaaama didn't and McCain didn't.

[Len_A]

This may come as a surprise to you but proposing exactly what they are going to do isn't what happens in convention speeches, Obama didn't and McCain didn't.

I guess it does come as a surprise. I may have to go back and see what Obama said in his speech.

[Len_A]

Floyd,

 

This is exactly why I don't understand some of these people. If you do the "who's who, of who's broke" as far as the states, they are virtually all run by democrats with big taxing authoritys. (unless they lost the election in the last cycle) They can't get manufacturers to move in, and the blue collar people are suffering terribly.

 

You would think people would get a clue when a manufacturer says it is going to move out; then low and behold, EVEN the democrats get it and offer them tax credits to stay.

 

Undeniable truth of economics-------------->BUSINESSES WILL FLEE TAXES and relocate where the taxes are cheaper since it is a fixed cost of doing business which must be included in the product, or the bottomline. When will some of you learn this obvious truth? It has been happening for years, so not a one of you who claim to be reasonably intelligent has any excuse NOT to be aware of this fact.

 

And what is many of your solutions due to brilliance, lolol. RAISE TAXES ON BUSINESS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

You will never learn; ever, will you. You help chase your own jobs away, then you blame people who want to keep business taxes low for doing it. Do you realize now how many of us become so FRUSTRATED and FLABBERGASTED at some of the illogic logic some of you spout.

 

I understand you are listening to politicians and it sounds good, but for cry eye, you now have a visual track record or graph of what happens if you listen to them. It is all over the place. If taxes rise, businesses leave to areas where less taxes against them are levied.

 

I live on the border of Indiana and Illinois. In Indiana gas taxes are cheaper, so the price of fuel is lower. Guess what kinda plate 3/4 of the cars have that are in the border Indiana gas stations. That's right, ILLINOIS!!!!

 

If a regular American can figure out that LESS taxes on a product means more money in their pockets, what do you think a business can figure out with CPAs?!?!!?!?!

 

Go ahead, vote to punish them. Go ahead and be a fool. They will pick up and leave you sitting not worrying about the taxes you pay, but rather if you are going to make enough money to pay any taxes at all!

 

It is not that ANY of us think it is fair, or right, but it is REALITY. Kinda like if you are a man with children and get a divorce, the odds are over 90% you are going to pay CHILDSUPPORT, and only get visitation. That to is REALITY.

 

And yet, you are willing to vote AGAINST what is real on the premise of SHANG RI-LA. Go ahead, vote for the premise the messiah offers, and see how things end up; above and beyond what the price of gas will be, AFTER you remove an oil man from the Whitehouse, lolol. I can't wait to see who you claim is the bogeyman then, but knowing how some of these people think, it will no doubt be the people who wanted to drill to save you in the first place. Go figure liberal logic if you can!!!!!

 

Business taxes are one factor, but are you telling me that St. Louis and Atlanta Assembly were closed because Michigan's taxes were lower? And what has Bush done to affect the world wide price of oil, besides nothing? His international "creed" is so low, the last time he suggested that OPEC pump more oil, he was politely told to go away. Imawhosure, most of the time you& I agree, but your post was one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen on a while.

 

My job, and jobs like mine disappearing, in Detroit have little to do with business taxes in Michigan, and more to do with the same reasons that auto jobs, hourly and salaried alike, have disappeared - financial and market related problems, at the Detroit automakers. And as a vendor sales rep, unemployed or not, purchasing at the Detroit automakers, have blamed their labor costs for their motivation in reducing all vendor related costs, and have done so for the quarter of a century I've been in sales. I've never, ever, heard a GM, Ford, Chrysler, Marathon Oil, BASF, Detroit Edison, or Great Lakes Steel purchasing agent or buyer ever bitch about Michigan's taxes. I have, on the other hand, heard them constantly bitch about union related labor costs as their reason for demanding price concessions from we vendors.

 

And businesses not relocating to Michigan blame the UAW far more (unfairly or not), than they ever blamed Michigan's so-called high taxes.

[Floyd Lawson]

And you can still stick the "whine" comment. Someone stating that they've ben out of work isn't whining. And, no, I'm not giving you much credit for knowing much about the Detroit area. You're right, there's been a lot of growth in manufacturing plants else where in the country, including growth by the transplants. I will tell you, based on experience, that the transplants have a different business model, and the kind of industrial sales I've done, isn't nearly as easy to perform with the transplants - Japanese and German alike (and I worked for a German fastener company for a couple of years).

 

You may want to ask your friends in Detroit, if they work in the auto industry, just how many vendor sales people they see in the plants these days, and I don't just mean GM, Ford, and Chrysler, but the suppliers, the utilities, and the refineries and chemical plants. My friends, hourly and salaried, and my relatives, hourly and salaried, are answering "not many, if any".

 

I've got good reason to bitch - Detroit went from an industrial sales mecca to an industrial sales no-man's land. At least a half a dozen industrial products distributors went under since 2000, and Michigan's business tax structure had less to with it than either losing business with GM, Ford, and Chrysler, or losing profit margin because the same three companies drive acquisition prices down to the bone. Grainger, one national company I've worked for fourteen years ago, took a million-and-a-half dollar write off on the business they were doing with the Detroit Three. And Michigan's tax structure had nothing to do with it, because the inventory for that Detroit Three business was staged an hour away in Ohio.

Part of your problem your not willing to step out of the box, you want to continue to do what you've done for the last 14 years and it's not happening, but you refuse to see it. So I suspect you'll remain unemployed for the near-term. Just so you know, I've been there, more than 1 time and I know it "ain't no fun". All my friends in the Detroit area are currently in the auto business, were previously or are retired from it. It's a tough business, I was in it and was lucky enough to retire and start my own business, but I had to move away from my life-long home in order to succeed.

But in your liberal mind-set you expect someone to fix it for you. Maybe some type of government program or training. You feel you are entitled. You are the only person responsible for you, not the government, US, state or local.

You don't like the whiner moniker but you continue to do it, your whole last paragraph is nothing but whinning. You start out by saying "I've got good reason to bitch". Just sub whine where you wrote bitch. I can see why you are having problems getting a job. I know but the truth hurts!

[Imawhosure]

Business taxes are one factor, but are you telling me that St. Louis and Atlanta Assembly were closed because Michigan's taxes were lower? And what has Bush done to affect the world wide price of oil, besides nothing? His international "creed" is so low, the last time he suggested that OPEC pump more oil, he was politely told to go away. Imawhosure, most of the time you& I agree, but your post was one of the biggest loads of crap I've seen on a while.

 

My job, and jobs like mine disappearing, in Detroit have little to do with business taxes in Michigan, and more to do with the same reasons that auto jobs, hourly and salaried alike, have disappeared - financial and market related problems, at the Detroit automakers. And as a vendor sales rep, unemployed or not, purchasing at the Detroit automakers, have blamed their labor costs for their motivation in reducing all vendor related costs, and have done so for the quarter of a century I've been in sales. I've never, ever, heard a GM, Ford, Chrysler, Marathon Oil, BASF, Detroit Edison, or Great Lakes Steel purchasing agent or buyer ever bitch about Michigan's taxes. I have, on the other hand, heard them constantly bitch about union related labor costs as their reason for demanding price concessions from we vendors.

 

And businesses not relocating to Michigan blame the UAW far more (unfairly or not), than they ever blamed Michigan's so-called high taxes.

 

Len,

 

You are taking it from purely an autoworkers point of view. For the total picture, ask yourself where virtually all new manufacturing is being built in this country, and while your at it, throw out the auto transplants so as to eliminate the union, non-union question. You will see exactly what I am talking about when you view their tax rates.

 

 

But since this is an autoworkers site, let us view the election from purely an autoworkers view...........as far as economics.

 

1. How many of you think Ford, GM, and Chrysler were stupid in not developing smaller cars???? Raise your hands please.

 

ANSWER FROM ME: Do you actually think that these huge conglomerates did not know what should come? Your view is what is happening TODAY. Their view was what shoulda been happening. How were they to know that SOME Americans would STOP the open market of energy that is readily available? They based much of their decisions on what is available and SHOULD be available for consumption in a free market, not what IS available in a false one. Each of you witnessed how long it took all 3 of them to decide in the last year or so to start developing smaller vehicles.

 

Do you actually BELIVE all 3 of them took that long to decide because they are that DUMB, or rather because they were waiting for us to scream bloody murder because America is getting screwed!!! They probably can NOT believe Americans are buying this nonsensical bullshit, and expected us to wakeup. Instead, you gotta guy in a virtual tie in the polls who admits he isn't going to drill for what is available, will not convert coal with clean technology, will not use nuclear, and says that the price of gasoline should be over 5 bucks. And what is worse, the automakers unions SUPPORT him while he cuts their throats, certainly for at least 5 to 6 years, which by that time will allow the unions to disappear or lose so much wage, their union dues will almost match a weeks paycheck. (ok, last sentence a exaggeration, but you get the point)

 

Mr Obama is trying to FORCE a change in what we use for energy by making current energy sooooo expensive, the alternatives will be reasonable. That is all well and good except for one thing!!!!!! What if everyone else doesn't do the same thing? (AKA CHINA, INDIA) What if they convert coal, use oil, and their manufacturing costs are waaaaaaaaay lower than ours because of it?

 

I believe that with our technology, our free desire, our lifestyles in this country with the desire to keep it, NO COUNTRY in the world can out produce our motivated citizens. But, if they can make their cost less for production because their energy is cheaper, we will NEVER be able to make that up. If their cost is CHEAPER before our companys have to pay us one thin dime per hr, how can we win? WE CAN'T!!!!

 

The reason America is so great; a beacon of freedom to the world is----------->its economy can support people. With the wrong decision on an energy issue; and make no mistake, this economy RUNS on energy, we will begin to fail. To be beholden one minute more than need be to countrys that do not neccisarily like us on any given day, is stupid. They can, may, and do now control our economy by just moving oil in one direction or the other.

 

Free? Free!!!!! Are we??? Or rather, are we under economic control of people who supply our energy!!!!!

 

We must get what we use for energy today, develop new energy for tommorrow, and free ourselves and be self sufficient if we are the economic engine known as the US of A.

 

Lincoln freed the slaves of this country!!!! I will be damn if I will allow some sheik with oil wells in the Middle East to put chains on me, you, or any of the rest of us ever again.

[methos]

Len,

 

You are taking it from purely an autoworkers point of view. For the total picture, ask yourself where virtually all new manufacturing is being built in this country, and while your at it, throw out the auto transplants so as to eliminate the union, non-union question. You will see exactly what I am talking about when you view their tax rates.

 

 

But since this is an autoworkers site, let us view the election from purely an autoworkers view...........as far as economics.

 

1. How many of you think Ford, GM, and Chrysler were stupid in not developing smaller cars???? Raise your hands please.

 

ANSWER FROM ME: Do you actually think that these huge conglomerates did not know what should come? Your view is what is happening TODAY. Their view was what shoulda been happening. How were they to know that SOME Americans would STOP the open market of energy that is readily available? They based much of their decisions on what is available and SHOULD be available for consumption in a free market, not what IS available in a false one. Each of you witnessed how long it took all 3 of them to decide in the last year or so to start developing smaller vehicles.

 

Do you actually BELIVE all 3 of them took that long to decide because they are that DUMB, or rather because they were waiting for us to scream bloody murder because America is getting screwed!!! They probably can NOT believe Americans are buying this nonsensical bullshit, and expected us to wakeup. Instead, you gotta guy in a virtual tie in the polls who admits he isn't going to drill for what is available, will not convert coal with clean technology, will not use nuclear, and says that the price of gasoline should be over 5 bucks. And what is worse, the automakers unions SUPPORT him while he cuts their throats, certainly for at least 5 to 6 years, which by that time will allow the unions to disappear or lose so much wage, their union dues will almost match a weeks paycheck. (ok, last sentence a exaggeration, but you get the point)

 

Mr Obama is trying to FORCE a change in what we use for energy by making current energy sooooo expensive, the alternatives will be reasonable. That is all well and good except for one thing!!!!!! What if everyone else doesn't do the same thing? (AKA CHINA, INDIA) What if they convert coal, use oil, and their manufacturing costs are waaaaaaaaay lower than ours because of it?

 

I believe that with our technology, our free desire, our lifestyles in this country with the desire to keep it, NO COUNTRY in the world can out produce our motivated citizens. But, if they can make their cost less for production because their energy is cheaper, we will NEVER be able to make that up. If their cost is CHEAPER before our companys have to pay us one thin dime per hr, how can we win? WE CAN'T!!!!

 

The reason America is so great; a beacon of freedom to the world is----------->its economy can support people. With the wrong decision on an energy issue; and make no mistake, this economy RUNS on energy, we will begin to fail. To be beholden one minute more than need be to countrys that do not neccisarily like us on any given day, is stupid. They can, may, and do now control our economy by just moving oil in one direction or the other.

 

Free? Free!!!!! Are we??? Or rather, are we under economic control of people who supply our energy!!!!!

 

We must get what we use for energy today, develop new energy for tommorrow, and free ourselves and be self sufficient if we are the economic engine known as the US of A.

 

Lincoln freed the slaves of this country!!!! I will be damn if I will allow some sheik with oil wells in the Middle East to put chains on me, you, or any of the rest of us ever again.

 

 

You need to read Obama's energy policy, so as you can have a clue as to what you are talking about. Obama reintroduced the Coal-to-Liquid Fuel Promotion Act of 2007 along with a Republican co-sponsor. Obama even suggested that he would be willing to allow off shore drilling in some sort of compromise if Republicans would stop blocking alternative energy legislation. Using the royalties derived from such to pay for some of his alternative energy policies.

 

Given that, there is no difference between McCain on obtaining fossil fuels. There are substantial differences in the scope of the plans, with Obama's being more costly, but far more productive in lessening our dependence.

 

As far as autoworkers, Obama supports the bailout, which if gas prices remain high will be essential if the domestics are to survive; however, McCain states support, but does not elaborate what that would entail. All three, Ford, GM, and Chrysler have been pressing hard for the bailout, and they know time is short. For the advantage is theirs given that Michigan and Ohio are swing states. That is why Mark Fields and many others have been throwing banquets and hosting other activities at the conventions trying to win over representatives to speed a resolution on the matter.

 

Why would any autoworker vote for McCain given that he is being non-committal on the issue? His spokesperson Romney stated that the bailout was a bad idea, and like a true Republican, said it's up to the free-market to decide, and if they want changes, among other things, labor needs to give back so as the company has more money for capital investment.

 

A vote for McCain under those conditions is akin to union workers voting for a pay cut or worse unemployment.

[Len_A]

Len,

 

You are taking it from purely an autoworkers point of view. For the total picture, ask yourself where virtually all new manufacturing is being built in this country, and while your at it, throw out the auto transplants so as to eliminate the union, non-union question. You will see exactly what I am talking about when you view their tax rates.

 

 

But since this is an autoworkers site, let us view the election from purely an autoworkers view...........as far as economics.

 

1. How many of you think Ford, GM, and Chrysler were stupid in not developing smaller cars???? Raise your hands please.

 

ANSWER FROM ME: Do you actually think that these huge conglomerates did not know what should come? Your view is what is happening TODAY. Their view was what shoulda been happening. How were they to know that SOME Americans would STOP the open market of energy that is readily available? They based much of their decisions on what is available and SHOULD be available for consumption in a free market, not what IS available in a false one. Each of you witnessed how long it took all 3 of them to decide in the last year or so to start developing smaller vehicles.

 

Do you actually BELIVE all 3 of them took that long to decide because they are that DUMB, or rather because they were waiting for us to scream bloody murder because America is getting screwed!!! They probably can NOT believe Americans are buying this nonsensical bullshit, and expected us to wakeup. Instead, you gotta guy in a virtual tie in the polls who admits he isn't going to drill for what is available, will not convert coal with clean technology, will not use nuclear, and says that the price of gasoline should be over 5 bucks. And what is worse, the automakers unions SUPPORT him while he cuts their throats, certainly for at least 5 to 6 years, which by that time will allow the unions to disappear or lose so much wage, their union dues will almost match a weeks paycheck. (ok, last sentence a exaggeration, but you get the point)

 

Mr Obama is trying to FORCE a change in what we use for energy by making current energy sooooo expensive, the alternatives will be reasonable. That is all well and good except for one thing!!!!!! What if everyone else doesn't do the same thing? (AKA CHINA, INDIA) What if they convert coal, use oil, and their manufacturing costs are waaaaaaaaay lower than ours because of it?

 

I believe that with our technology, our free desire, our lifestyles in this country with the desire to keep it, NO COUNTRY in the world can out produce our motivated citizens. But, if they can make their cost less for production because their energy is cheaper, we will NEVER be able to make that up. If their cost is CHEAPER before our companys have to pay us one thin dime per hr, how can we win? WE CAN'T!!!!

 

The reason America is so great; a beacon of freedom to the world is----------->its economy can support people. With the wrong decision on an energy issue; and make no mistake, this economy RUNS on energy, we will begin to fail. To be beholden one minute more than need be to countrys that do not neccisarily like us on any given day, is stupid. They can, may, and do now control our economy by just moving oil in one direction or the other.

 

Free? Free!!!!! Are we??? Or rather, are we under economic control of people who supply our energy!!!!!

 

We must get what we use for energy today, develop new energy for tommorrow, and free ourselves and be self sufficient if we are the economic engine known as the US of A.

 

Lincoln freed the slaves of this country!!!! I will be damn if I will allow some sheik with oil wells in the Middle East to put chains on me, you, or any of the rest of us ever again.

Imawhosure, considering that, up to being unemployed, the last five years were involved, in some part, making prototype parts for Ford and a few Ford suppliers, adn four of the previous twenty years were involved in assembly tools, I think I can give an opinion from my vantage point here in the Detroit area. Add to that several family members in product development with in GM and Chrysler, and you're going to hate my answer to your question, if I may paraphrase it:

 

Do I actually BELIEVE all 3 of them took that long to decide because they are that DUMB?

 

Dumb as a box of rocks. Too myopic (near sighted) to see what was coming, too damn slow to react, too factionalized within their respective organizations to pull together and make a fucking decision.

 

I personally know of so many examples of this, it's not funny. Look, Imawhosure, in one manner or another, you and I are "Ford guys". Does a company that has leadership (something you know I've bitched about a lack of at Ford, on these boards for the last five years) let their luxury division, Lincoln, go to hell right after nearly burying their cross-town rival, Cadillac in the 1990's? Speaking of the 1990's, the Clinton administration gave GM & Ford an anti-trust waiver to jointly develop powertrains, in either 1998 or 1999. Do companies that are not DUMB take nearly eight years just to jointly develop two 6-speed transmissions? Are you kidding me? Leave the new European Focus on the other side of the Atlantic and use an six year old platform here, even as Honda Civic sales are climbing?

 

Flex was five to six months later than it needed to be, in the development cycle, and consequently later getting into production, because one faction held up the works demanding sliding doors for the rear doors, like the Windstar/Freestar, even after it had been decided that a "minivan" it wasn't going to be.

 

GM's Chevy Colorado and GMC Canyon pickups, in 2000, thsoe geniuses barely realized that they didn't leave enough room in the front suspension design to use a signal torque wrench on the jam nuts used to tighten the front end after the front wheels are aligned. No signal, no computer release of the truck at the end of the assembly line (front end alignment is the last step in their assembly process - I think everyone else is the same, but I can't say for sure). Not only didn't they leave enough room for a cordless wrench (no trip hazard for the employee from a stupid cord), they didn't even enough room for a corded signal wrench - at that time, those were at least four inches longer than a standard torque wrench. Another six to eight month redesign delay.

 

Yes, I think they're that dumb, and slow, and gutless, and up until now, severely lacking in leadership. Most of their piss-poor decisions have been short-run finance oriented, and that's why they got all of us into this mess.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Len_A

[Len_A]

You need to read Obama's energy policy, so as you can have a clue as to what you are talking about. Obama reintroduced the Coal-to-Liquid Fuel Promotion Act of 2007 along with a Republican co-sponsor. Obama even suggested that he would be willing to allow off shore drilling in some sort of compromise if Republicans would stop blocking alternative energy legislation. Using the royalties derived from such to pay for some of his alternative energy policies.

 

Given that, there is no difference between McCain on obtaining fossil fuels. There are substantial differences in the scope of the plans, with Obama's being more costly, but far more productive in lessening our dependence.

 

As far as autoworkers, Obama supports the bailout, which if gas prices remain high will be essential if the domestics are to survive; however, McCain states support, but does not elaborate what that would entail. All three, Ford, GM, and Chrysler have been pressing hard for the bailout, and they know time is short. For the advantage is theirs given that Michigan and Ohio are swing states. That is why Mark Fields and many others have been throwing banquets and hosting other activities at the conventions trying to win over representatives to speed a resolution on the matter.

 

Why would any autoworker vote for McCain given that he is being non-committal on the issue? His spokesperson Romney stated that the bailout was a bad idea, and like a true Republican, said it's up to the free-market to decide, and if they want changes, among other things, labor needs to give back so as the company has more money for capital investment.

 

A vote for McCain under those conditions is akin to union workers voting for a pay cut or worse unemployment.

Exactly! McCain's support has been lukewarm at best, and it's been reported that he favors only half the amount the auto companies are looking for. I hope someone puts Palin to the test, seeign she is such a free market advocate. Like it or not, the Detroit automakers need the loan guarantees. Their credit ratings are so low, that "normal" borrowing for them now is close to credit card interest rates.

[Savetheplanet]

, will not convert coal with clean technology,

 

convert to what?

 

can you post a link of this so called "clean technology" ?

 

 

And don't you think you are being a bit of a drama queen with your ------------------"Lincoln freed the slaves of this country!!!! I will be damn if I will allow some sheik with oil wells in the Middle East to put chains on me, you, or any of the rest of us ever again.

[Savetheplanet]

OK, now, we'll try it again. Which plant is in danger of closing? Please supply details.

 

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...20080905?rpc=44

 

 

 

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...40&start=40

Edited September 5, 2008 by Savetheplanet

[Len_A]

And as usual, no proposals on the issues: http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080905/D930RTAG4.html

 

"Today, the jobs report is another reminder these are tough times," McCain said. "They're tough times in Wisconsin, they're tough times in Ohio, tough times all over America." He did not say how he would fix the economy.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Len_A

[Floyd Lawson]

And as usual, no proposals on the issues: http://apnews.myway.com//article/20080905/D930RTAG4.html

Maybe he should propose raising taxes on corps, than should increase employment. You guys always expect the government to recuse you, provide you with a job, free healthcare and education.

[Len_A]

Maybe he should propose raising taxes on corps, than should increase employment. You guys always expect the government to recuse you, provide you with a job, free healthcare and education.

I doubt that I'm the only one who wants to hear what he proposes. You know it's going to come up in the debates.

[V8 Ford]

" He did not say how he would fix the economy"

Economies move cyclically, they don't break. Republicans prefer to use monetary policy (ie, changing the interest rates) to counter cyclical deviations, Democrats prefer to use fiscal policy (ie, more spending, stimulus tax rebates). The Fed already cut interest rates and congress already issued stimulus checks. The only change in current government economic policy that could counteract a recession would be to increase deficit spending (deficit being important, otherwise there would be no change in output). If you've being told someone’s going to a fix to a broken economy, you've either been played for a fool or are being promised by one.

[Mark B. Morrow]

Here's a good one for all you libs:

 

 

So this idiot is basically saying he'll tell corprations and businesses when their profits are excessive and then take that money and redistribute it to the masses. So today it's the oil companies, tomorrow it's the automotive companies or the mom & pop ice cream store on the corner. This is communism at it's worse and you people buy this crap and then you want to sit and complain about jobs being outsourced. Give me a break.

 

 

It may come as a surprize to you but that is exactly what Sarah Palin did in Alaska. She raised taxes on the oil companies due to their huge increase in profit and distributed about $1,200+ to each Alaskan.

 

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/loca...laskatax07.html

 

 

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2008/08/29/...als-for-mccain/

Palin has also taken stands on energy that deviate from many Republicans. In 2007, she signed a windfall profits tax for oil production that has sent billions of dollars to Alaskan coffers, but which oil executives complain will stem new production in the state.

 

While Republicans have eschewed a windfall profits tax on the national level, the McCain campaign appears comfortable with her policy stances on energy. In a speech introducing Palin, McCain said Palin “has shown great tenacity in tackling tough problems, especially our dangerous commitment to foreign oil.”

 

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200809...mccain_decries/

 

Here's the clip from her speech on Wednesday:

 

http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/09/...-touts-oil-tax/

Edited September 6, 2008 by Mark B. Morrow