Do You Understand Field's Logic? I Don't

[Deanh]

THEN DON'T RESPOND!!!

 

lol

probably right......

[Deanh]

...Because the U.S is always behind Europe...no matter what the subject?

nope...its because of overly demonstrative emissions and safety laws mandated by massive ambulance chasing lawsuits, tree huggers, insurance agencies and feds........befuddles me......that and the amount of vehicles per capita has prevented the import of the so called sippers....waht I find interesting is a car that consumes 70% of the fuel with the same emissions should theoretically rate as 30 5 cleaner to begin with....are the Euro cars THAt dirty?........weird.....I just know if they were a viable business case ther ewould be an absolute plethora here.......

Edited September 17, 2008 by Deanh

[RichardJensen]

1.) Diesel can't meet US emissions (Even though it can, witness VW, Mercedes, and sometime in '09, Acura ((Honda)) Argument against diesel: Debunked).

Diesel CAN meet US emissions: It's a question of how much you want to pay as a consumer and how much you as a company are willing to eat in unrecovered costs.

2.) Diesel costs more than gas (True, 10-20% more on average, and that's with the Fed. taxing it more. Overlooked is the 30%+ mpg gains it gives. Argument against diesel: Debunked).

Get back to me in November, December, January, February and March--the peak months for home heating oil Diesel is always cheaper in summer.

3.) Diesel doesn't perform as well as gas (Comparing say the UK Focus 1.6L diesel to 1.8L gas, we have comparable 0-60 times, leaves the 1.8L gas behind on the 31-62 times... So, gas is slower than diesel here. Argument against diesel: Debunked).

Both vehicles (diesel and gas) deliver performance unacceptable to US customers. You are suggesting that Ford import a 1.6L diesel, I am NOT suggesting that Ford import a 1.8L gas engine.

4.) Diesel costs more on initial purchase than gas to buy. (True. Then again, there's that pesky gas savings over the life of the entire vehicle.... Plus, the tax break from the Fed. for having a fuel efficient vehicle = a "massive" $700 more on say the '09 Jetta TDI. With the tax credit and the life of vehivle mpg savings factored in, Argument against diesel: Debunked).

Fuel cost savings (factoring in anywhere from 10-20% to 30% or more in winter months for, let's call it a seasonally adjusted annual total of 22% means you are saving 8% of your annual gas bill, or say, $130, equals, say a 5 year payoff for that Jetta. Assuming you get the tax credit which IS volume limited (only so many dollars in tax credits are allowable).

5.) Light passenger car diesel costs more than gas to maintain (Whoops! Guess Not Really.) Arguement against diesel: Debunked).

That data uses fuel price and initial purchase assumptions which, thanks to US taxation and emissions regulations, are entirely inappropriate for the US market.

 

So, we are left, once again, with a fervent wish from "diesel tomorrow" folks for

 

1) less use of home heating oil

2) better tax treatment of diesel fuel

3) rollbacks on diesel emissions regs.

 

In other words, you want:

 

1) People to pay thousands of dollars to switch to natural gas heating

2) All 50 states and the federal government to forgo tax revenue at a time when the highway fund is bankrupt

3) the EPA and CARB to reverse 36 years of precedent (and, questionably, exceed the legal structure of the CAA), and draw lawsuits from the Sierra Club, etc., and rollback diesel emissions regs.

 

1) Not going to happen

2) Not going to happen

3) Not going to happen

 

What IS going to happen is that diesel will grow at an organic pace until one or more hurdles are cleared (i.e.: cheaper catalysts, more fuel efficient catalysts, declining demand for heavier refined product like home heating oil).

 

Then you might see a leap forward in diesel adoption.

 

However, until that happens, seeings how all three of those restraints are outside Ford's control, pushing diesel adoption would be like pushing a chain up hill.

 

The Jetta costs as much as a more fuel efficient Prius. 'Nuff said. That, right there, is the argument against diesels in a nutshell.

Edited September 17, 2008 by RichardJensen

[Edstock]

Where is Ecoboost??? No where.

Jeez — don't you look? It's down the hall, next to the Honda diesel. Funny you missed it, but then again, the Honda's kinda hard to spot, too.

[chucky2]

shunned Prius....? nope, don't care for the car, but its a better ALTERNATIVE to the TDI.

 

Maybe you didn't shun the Prius, but there were/are plenty that did/do. A better alternative? That depends on what you consider better...but, it's an alternative, I'll give you that. I don't like the idea of producing batteries, and disposing of batteries. Maybe those challenges will be overcome in the upcoming years, but for now, it's a non-starter for me.

 

Hybrid Fusion December...so maybe January....

 

So, it's not here. And, there's no numbers on it. Outstanding.

 

eco 3.5, meh, agree ass backwards...small 1.6 or 2.0 may have been better, but we need the Fiesta here first no?

 

The Focus, Fusion, Taurus, Escape, Explorer, Ranger, and maybe even the F-150/E-150 couldn't do with a 2.0 Ecoboost???

 

2.5 in the flex perhaps, think 2.0 would be too small....and yes it is annoying they are slow in coming...so no doubt we will lose MILIONS of sales , actually TRILLIONS to the TDI....opportunity left wantin...AGAIN!

 

Does Ford even sell millions anymore? Just sayin'... Well, there's a waiting list for TDI's...one where people are giving $2k to just get on it. Now, I'm curious here: Which Ford has a waiting list like that? Does any Ford that's not a brand new vehicle have a waiting list? Must be the Hybrid Fusion, right? Oh wait, I know, the Hyrbid Focus? No, I know, the Hybrid Ecoboost'd Taurus? Wait....there aren't any waiting lists for Ford vehicles? But, but....why???

 

And sorry....it is just Ford that has ignored diesel.....my apologies....

 

Oh no, GM has as well. You see the shape they're equally in right? The shape they're in (in part) supposedly because of their lack of fuel efficient offerings? The shape they could be helping to get themselves out of if they had superior high mpg offerings...but, they don't. And with no I-4 Ecoboost, they still won't.

 

I sip, don't drink coolaid....I will voice my opinion.....good OR bad....but one has to weigh BOTH sides to draw a conclusion

 

You have a hose plugged in you, and the spigot is on full. Weigh both sides? Does that mean you take facts and reasoned logic, listen to folks like Lutz, and then throw the facts and reasoned logic out the window?

 

....on this topic you seem unable too.....

 

No, I get the points that have been made. They're just either totally BS, have workarounds (read: the other 3 major manufacturers have somehow accomplished it), or don't add up in the whole to not offering the option here.

 

so keep playing with napalm and flaming...

 

I did not start the flaming....keep that in mind.

 

BUT, realize there are two sides to every discussion....what you should do is compare year end sales numbers of the TDI, Mercedes and honda to whomever you are flaming and then perhaps force feed some of us so called realists crow.....pass the tabasco when you are ready....

 

The TDI is going to make up 30% sales of all Jetta's sold this year, no need to wait for EOY numbers or that start of the crow eating. Start chewing now, it's only going to get worse as the Big 3 have only the Energizer Bunny to compete with Big Iron.

 

Chuck

[RichardJensen]

So, it's not here. And, there's no numbers on it. Outstanding.

Apply those standards to the Acura TSX.

[Deanh]

Maybe you didn't shun the Prius, but there were/are plenty that did/do. A better alternative? That depends on what you consider better...but, it's an alternative, I'll give you that. I don't like the idea of producing batteries, and disposing of batteries. Maybe those challenges will be overcome in the upcoming years, but for now, it's a non-starter for me.

 

 

 

So, it's not here. And, there's no numbers on it. Outstanding.

 

 

 

The Focus, Fusion, Taurus, Escape, Explorer, Ranger, and maybe even the F-150/E-150 couldn't do with a 2.0 Ecoboost???

 

 

 

Does Ford even sell millions anymore? Just sayin'... Well, there's a waiting list for TDI's...one where people are giving $2k to just get on it. Now, I'm curious here: Which Ford has a waiting list like that? Does any Ford that's not a brand new vehicle have a waiting list? Must be the Hybrid Fusion, right? Oh wait, I know, the Hyrbid Focus? No, I know, the Hybrid Ecoboost'd Taurus? Wait....there aren't any waiting lists for Ford vehicles? But, but....why???

 

 

 

Oh no, GM has as well. You see the shape they're equally in right? The shape they're in (in part) supposedly because of their lack of fuel efficient offerings? The shape they could be helping to get themselves out of if they had superior high mpg offerings...but, they don't. And with no I-4 Ecoboost, they still won't.

 

 

 

You have a hose plugged in you, and the spigot is on full. Weigh both sides? Does that mean you take facts and reasoned logic, listen to folks like Lutz, and then throw the facts and reasoned logic out the window?

 

 

 

No, I get the points that have been made. They're just either totally BS, have workarounds (read: the other 3 major manufacturers have somehow accomplished it), or don't add up in the whole to not offering the option here.

 

 

 

I did not start the flaming....keep that in mind.

 

 

 

The TDI is going to make up 30% sales of all Jetta's sold this year, no need to wait for EOY numbers or that start of the crow eating. Start chewing now, it's only going to get worse as the Big 3 have only the Energizer Bunny to compete with Big Iron.

 

Chuck

Chuck.....one of the things that contributes to waiting lists is supply.....lack of supply means not a lot of sales....and if ( as you quote...the TDI is going to be 30 % of the Jettas this year, that doesn't speak very well as a total since APPARENTLY you can't get em ...agreed? ) no, no numbers on the Fusion hybrid...last i looked...exactly the same amount of Honda diesels had been sold. No maybe you did not start flaming however you not once have acknowledged anyone elses STATED facts as viable, and steadfastly remained stubborn or open to accepting the fact you may be wrong. Plus all you have mentioned is the big three,,,,what about.....Toyota/ Lexus, Hyundai, Nissan/ Infiniti, Suzuki, Kia, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Saab,Jag, Audi ( hell VW owns them no? )hell and the dozens of others that also have not embraced the diesel technology....if you cannot fathom that perhaps there IS A FUNDEMENTAL REASON they have NOT, then your points hold no waterand you cannot be veiwed as open minded.....Ford has FANTASTIC diesels...IN EUROPE. Why don't they bring them there...hell, they must never ever have looked into that...NEVER...right? Do not be so ignorant. There is NO BS about it....I would NOT insult their intelligence by jumping to the conclusion they just pooh poohed it...if, as it seems, you beleive thatis in fact correct, you are worse off than i thought and just arguing for the sake of arguing. PS....sold out of Escape hybrids...sold before they arrive,,,fleet allocation already at build out due to lack of supply.....would be interesting to compare the Hybrid Escape #'s with the TDI's I suppose....but tack on the Fusion hybrid come december/ Jan......dunno what its mileage will be, but I would bet it was competitive....

[RichardJensen]

The TDI is going to make up 30% sales of all Jetta's sold this year

So, 33k clean diesels from an entrylevel mfr.

 

Ford will probably sell 25,000 Fusion hybrids in 2009 and another 25,000 or so Escape hybrids.

 

And Ford is well behind Toyota. Toyota will move well over 100,000 hybrids.

 

We get it. You don't like D cell batteries. Stop trying to assure us there is some astronomical number of people who would rather pay the same price for a smaller vehicle that gets worse gas mileage on more expensive fuel from a company with abysmal reliability, then get a proven product: the Prius.

 

Like Cato the elder, who ended his speeches with 'Carthago delenda est', I will close my posts thus:

 

Jetta carius est.

Edited September 17, 2008 by RichardJensen

[chucky2]

Diesel CAN meet US emissions: It's a question of how much you want to pay as a consumer and how much you as a company are willing to eat in unrecovered costs.

 

Well, you pay $700 more. For perpetual better mileage. Some other manufacturer is toting a $700 option, aren't they?? Who was that again? Debunked, Again.

 

Get back to me in November, December, January, February and March--the peak months for home heating oil Diesel is always cheaper in summer.

 

So it's more expensive in the winter, cheaper in the summer, Yes, no kidding. Does the engine get less fuel efficient somehow? Can we not modify our tax structure of diesel output? Are these things fixed? I'd say 100% Debunked, Again...but you do have some point at least for the winter months...so we can go with 80% Dubunked. 70%. Certainly not less than 50%.

 

Both vehicles (diesel and gas) deliver performance unacceptable to US customers. You are suggesting that Ford import a 1.6L diesel, I am NOT suggesting that Ford import a 1.8L gas engine.

 

Really? I couldn't even find performance data from Ford for their US 2.0L gas Focus, but, MotorTrend reviewed it: 10.3 seconds 0-60...the same as the 1.6L UK diesel. Given the 31-62mph data on the UK Focus site for gas vs. diesel, we can just assume that the 2.0L gasser here isn't any better than the 1.6L diesel. Debunked, Again.

 

Fuel cost savings (factoring in anywhere from 10-20% to 30% or more in winter months for, let's call it a seasonally adjusted annual total of 22% means you are saving 8% of your annual gas bill, or say, $130, equals, say a 5 year payoff for that Jetta. Assuming you get the tax credit which IS volume limited (only so many dollars in tax credits are allowable).

 

That data uses fuel price and initial purchase assumptions which, thanks to US taxation and emissions regulations, are entirely inappropriate for the US market.

 

Where did you get $130 from again? Thanks.

 

So, we are left, once again, with a fervent wish from "diesel tomorrow" folks for

 

1) less use of home heating oil No.

2) better tax treatment of diesel fuel That'd be nice, but, not necessary.

3) rollbacks on diesel emissions regs.

 

1) No

2) That'd be nice, but, not needed.

3) Not needed, as 3 major manufacturers have already done what the Big 3 said can't be done.

 

That's: 3 Debunked, Again.

 

 

In other words, you want:

 

1) People to pay thousands of dollars to switch to natural gas heating

2) All 50 states and the federal government to forgo tax revenue at a time when the highway fund is bankrupt

3) the EPA and CARB to reverse 36 years of precedent (and, questionably, exceed the legal structure of the CAA), and draw lawsuits from the Sierra Club, etc., and rollback diesel emissions regs.

 

1) Not going to happen

2) Not going to happen

3) Not going to happen

 

1) No.

2) No.

3) No.

 

Debunked, Again, Again. Keep throwing up those strawmen though....it's the only thing you've got left!!!

 

What IS going to happen is that diesel will grow at an organic pace until one or more hurdles are cleared (i.e.: cheaper catalysts, more fuel efficient catalysts, declining demand for heavier refined product like home heating oil).

 

Then you might see a leap forward in diesel adoption.

 

VW has already seen a leap, as has Mercedes. When the US diesel Acura TSX hits, I have little doubt it will as well. No need to wait...TDI's are leaping off Stealership lots... That's....you guessed it....Debunked again.

 

However, until that happens, seeings how all three of those restraints are outside Ford's control, pushing diesel adoption would be like pushing a chain up hill.

 

Until it happens....Debunked. I'm sure it is outside Ford Leadership's control...when the culture is Can't Do, it's hard to change...

 

The Jetta costs as much as a more fuel efficient Prius. 'Nuff said. That, right there, is the argument against diesels in a nutshell.

 

And it costs as much as an fuel inefficient gas Jetta. That right there is enough argument to give US buyers the choice of what they'd like. Then again, no $5k batteries are needing to be replaced down the road either...ouch...

 

Your whole post: Debunked.

 

It's OK, just reply how I'm not just me as a poster, or I'm brainwashed, or I'm totally wacko....we can agree to just completely disagree. We'll see how the Hybrid Fusion does, and we'll eventually see how the '09 diesel Acura TSX does (we already see how the Jetta TDI is doing). Time will tell...

 

Chuck

[chucky2]

Apply those standards to the Acura TSX.

 

Except someone has actually driven, and reported on, what will basically be the '09 Acura TSX. Where's any review of the Hyrbid Fusion? With observed mpg #'s please, thanks.

 

Chuck

[Deanh]

Well, you pay $700 more. For perpetual better mileage. Some other manufacturer is toting a $700 option, aren't they?? Who was that again? Debunked, Again.

 

 

 

So it's more expensive in the winter, cheaper in the summer, Yes, no kidding. Does the engine get less fuel efficient somehow? Can we not modify our tax structure of diesel output? Are these things fixed? I'd say 100% Debunked, Again...but you do have some point at least for the winter months...so we can go with 80% Dubunked. 70%. Certainly not less than 50%.

 

 

 

Really? I couldn't even find performance data from Ford for their US 2.0L gas Focus, but, MotorTrend reviewed it: 10.3 seconds 0-60...the same as the 1.6L UK diesel. Given the 31-62mph data on the UK Focus site for gas vs. diesel, we can just assume that the 2.0L gasser here isn't any better than the 1.6L diesel. Debunked, Again.

 

 

 

Where did you get $130 from again? Thanks.

 

 

 

1) No

2) That'd be nice, but, not needed.

3) Not needed, as 3 major manufacturers have already done what the Big 3 said can't be done.

 

That's: 3 Debunked, Again.

 

 

 

 

1) No.

2) No.

3) No.

 

Debunked, Again, Again. Keep throwing up those strawmen though....it's the only thing you've got left!!!

 

 

 

VW has already seen a leap, as has Mercedes. When the US diesel Acura TSX hits, I have little doubt it will as well. No need to wait...TDI's are leaping off Stealership lots... That's....you guessed it....Debunked again.

 

 

 

Until it happens....Debunked. I'm sure it is outside Ford Leadership's control...when the culture is Can't Do, it's hard to change...

 

 

 

And it costs as much as an fuel inefficient gas Jetta. That right there is enough argument to give US buyers the choice of what they'd like. Then again, no $5k batteries are needing to be replaced down the road either...ouch...

 

Your whole post: Debunked.

 

It's OK, just reply how I'm not just me as a poster, or I'm brainwashed, or I'm totally wacko....we can agree to just completely disagree. We'll see how the Hybrid Fusion does, and we'll eventually see how the '09 diesel Acura TSX does (we already see how the Jetta TDI is doing). Time will tell...

 

Chuck

note to chuckie...batteries in the hybrids have 100k warranties...most trade their cars around 60 k...also, from what i have heard...not ONE battery has needed replacement yet...debunked....superior MPGs for the sme money...hybrid....superiority of diesel...debunked by a superior ALTERNATIVE....something just about every manufacturer is pursuing...why? maybe its a better alternative...imagine that...oh why am i taliking to a brick wall....guess what...ONLY three manufacturers have done something a MAJORITY considered not viable for the US market....and fill me in...if there is a waiting list because of no product, how can they be flying off the racks....

[Deanh]

Except someone has actually driven, and reported on, what will basically be the '09 Acura TSX. Where's any review of the Hyrbid Fusion? With observed mpg #'s please, thanks.

 

Chuck

big secret for some reason....building anticipation I guess...lot of speculation...hope it lives up to the hype...

[RichardJensen]

Well, you pay $700 more

Yeah. Except--get this--that tax credit is not permanent.

Can we not modify our tax structure of diesel output?

You say this ain't necessary.

Where did you get $130 from again? Thanks.

22% excess cost for diesel fuel (speculated as estimated annual excess for diesel) vs. 30% fuel economy savings.

 

But there you go: 8%, which, for the Jetta is $192 per year.

 

But, let's play the 18% game (closer to the difference between Jetta gas & Jetta diesel), but let's also play it with the $2000 cost of the option once the tax credit expires.

 

Looking at 5 years to recoup the cost of that diesel option.

 

If we do 18% & $700, you'll recoup your investment in a couple years. But adjust that fuel cost savings down and watch the price go up (as the credit winds down) and it all goes downhill. Your best case scenario is to buy a Jetta in the first year it's on production and realize the full 40% savings in fuel economy.

3) Not needed, as 3 major manufacturers have already done what the Big 3 said can't be done.

Who's raising strawmen now? Where did I say that diesels are IMPOSSIBLE? But thanks for turning 'impractical' into 'impossible' because it's much easier to prove something possible than to prove it practical.

 

You:debunked.

 

For asserting that possible = practical.

 

Heck. Fusion is possible. That must mean it's practical, and it's only because the power companies are so stodgy that we're stuck with fossil fuels and nuclear fission.

 

Jetta carius est.

Edited September 18, 2008 by RichardJensen

[chucky2]

Jeez — don't you look? It's down the hall, next to the Honda diesel. Funny you missed it, but then again, the Honda's kinda hard to spot, too.

 

OK, that was good, I admit it...

 

Chuck