Do You Understand Field's Logic? I Don't

[RichardJensen]

For the more advanced (but again, not like landing a man on the moon) solutions

No one is saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to meet US emissions regs. We're saying it's IMPRACTICAL.

 

As near as I can tell, the diesel fans on this website want the following to happen:

 

CARB & EPA roll back NOx regs for diesels

Congress and all 50 state legislatures roll back taxation of diesel fuel

A complete halt to the use of (basically) diesel fuel for heating homes.

 

And I can tell you about how likely that is to happen. You've got a better chance of getting crap to roll up hill.

 

Seriously. You can buy a Prius or a Jetta diesel for about the same price. Sure the car fans prefer the Jetta, but it doesn't do as well as the Prius and it uses more expensive gas.

 

--

 

Oh, and about batteries................................... Please. These things run on glorified D cells. Really. And they don't fail all that often.

[mlhm5]

Mahindra & Mahindra?

 

You MUST be kidding me.

 

Weren't we supposed to be drowning in Chinese cars by now? Wasn't there going to be MGs built in Oklahoma next year?

 

Isn't that what Henry Ford said about the VW when they offered it to him after the war?

 

Ford has chosen not participate in a market segment where other manufacturers see opportunity.

Edited September 15, 2008 by mlhm5

[RichardJensen]

Isn't that what Henry Ford said about the VW when they offered it to him after the war?

You don't have a shred of evidence to support that line. HF died in 1947.

[mlhm5]

You don't have a shred of evidence to support that line. HF died in 1947.

 

HFII

 

I think the exact words were - "What we are being offered here is not worth a damn!"

 

That little "shit box" as HFII described the original Beetle, outsold the Model T.

Edited September 15, 2008 by mlhm5

[RichardJensen]

And your link is where? And your source is what? You, once again, are making unsupportable claims.

[Extreme4x4]

Hmmmm............. chucky gone, ml back. Same nonsensical arguements that go in circles, and same obsession with VW and Honda, and diesels.

 

What a coincidence. What are the odds?? :rolleyes:

 

Ml never has sources, at least not from what I have seen. He just spouts off nonsense with nothing to back it up, and can never remember that the US has much more strict diesel emissions, and much higher diesel fuel prices with higher diesel fuel taxes.

 

It is kind of like arguing with a brick wall.

[mlhm5]

And your link is where? And your source is what? You, once again, are making unsupportable claims.

 

You have a computer, look it up. WSJ

 

Which car outsold both the Model T and the Beetle?

 

Hint. It was not a Ford.

Edited September 15, 2008 by mlhm5

[Deanh]

You have a computer, look it up. WSJ

 

Which car outsold both the Model T and the Beetle?

 

Hint. It was not a Ford.

how does its numbers compare with the F-150?......................

[RichardJensen]

You have a computer, look it up.

It is NOT my job to do YOUR fact checking. YOU don't pay me enough.

 

The Corolla NAMEPLATE has outsold the Beetle & Model T, but I would argue that the Model T & Beetle because they changed very little over the course of their runs should be counted apart from it.

[mlhm5]

It is NOT my job to do YOUR fact checking. YOU don't pay me enough.

 

The Corolla NAMEPLATE has outsold the Beetle & Model T, but I would argue that the Model T & Beetle because they changed very little over the course of their runs should be counted apart from it.

 

Golf

[RichardJensen]

Golf

And there again, you're talking about a nameplate, not a car.

 

BTW, there have been roughly 30 million Corollas sold.

[Deanh]

Golf

you should stick to domino's.....or ping pong...youd be taking 4's on par 5's..........

Edited September 16, 2008 by Deanh

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Video's on the worlds top 10 best selling cars of all time.

http://www.weshow.com/top10/en/transportat...ars-of-all-time

[mlhm5]

And there again, you're talking about a nameplate, not a car.

 

BTW, there have been roughly 30 million Corollas sold.

 

The Golf sold 24MM cars since 1974 and the Corolla has sold 34MM since 1966. They are number one and two in total cars sold.

 

If you count trucks the F150 has sold more than the Golf, but less than the Corolla.

[Deanh]

The Golf sold 24MM cars since 1974 and the Corolla has sold 34MM since 1966. They are number one and two in total cars sold.

 

If you count trucks the F150 has sold more than the Golf, but less than the Corolla.

any of those vehicles 65mpg diesels?...................

[chucky2]

any of those vehicles 65mpg diesels?...................

 

Any of those sold when gas was $4+ a gallon?

 

Let's sum up this thread for the diesel bashers:

 

1.) Diesel can't meet US emissions (Even though it can, witness VW, Mercedes, and sometime in '09, Acura ((Honda)) Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

2.) Diesel costs more than gas (True, 10-20% more on average, and that's with the Fed. taxing it more. Overlooked is the 30%+ mpg gains it gives. Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

3.) Diesel doesn't perform as well as gas (Comparing say the UK Focus 1.6L diesel to 1.8L gas, we have comparable 0-60 times, leaves the 1.8L gas behind on the 31-62 times... So, gas is slower than diesel here. Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

4.) Diesel costs more on initial purchase than gas to buy. (True. Then again, there's that pesky gas savings over the life of the entire vehicle.... Plus, the tax break from the Fed. for having a fuel efficient vehicle = a "massive" $700 more on say the '09 Jetta TDI. With the tax credit and the life of vehivle mpg savings factored in, Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

5.) Light passenger car diesel costs more than gas to maintain (Whoops! Guess Not Really.) Arguement against diesel: Debunked).

 

Was there anything else needing debunking, or is it safe to say at this point that at least having the option of purchasing a Big 3 high mpg clean diesel passenger vehicle here in the US would be a nice (if not smart in respect to making money for the Big 3) thing to have?

 

Chuck

[Deanh]

Any of those sold when gas was $4+ a gallon?

 

Let's sum up this thread for the diesel bashers:

 

1.) Diesel can't meet US emissions (Even though it can, witness VW, Mercedes, and sometime in '09, Acura ((Honda)) Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

2.) Diesel costs more than gas (True, 10-20% more on average, and that's with the Fed. taxing it more. Overlooked is the 30%+ mpg gains it gives. Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

3.) Diesel doesn't perform as well as gas (Comparing say the UK Focus 1.6L diesel to 1.8L gas, we have comparable 0-60 times, leaves the 1.8L gas behind on the 31-62 times... So, gas is slower than diesel here. Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

4.) Diesel costs more on initial purchase than gas to buy. (True. Then again, there's that pesky gas savings over the life of the entire vehicle.... Plus, the tax break from the Fed. for having a fuel efficient vehicle = a "massive" $700 more on say the '09 Jetta TDI. With the tax credit and the life of vehivle mpg savings factored in, Argument against diesel: Debunked).

 

5.) Light passenger car diesel costs more than gas to maintain (Whoops! Guess Not Really.) Arguement against diesel: Debunked).

 

Was there anything else needing debunking, or is it safe to say at this point that at least having the option of purchasing a Big 3 high mpg clean diesel passenger vehicle here in the US would be a nice (if not smart in respect to making money for the Big 3) thing to have?

 

Chuck

your logic is so flawed as to not even ellicit a response....this is America...keep the coparisons coming with diesel friendly Europe....and call every manufacturer and tell them YOU have a better idea.....IDIOT>

[chucky2]

your logic is so flawed as to not even ellicit a response....this is America...keep the coparisons coming with diesel friendly Europe....and call every manufacturer and tell them YOU have a better idea.....IDIOT>

 

I don't have to...VW, Mercedes, and now Acura (Honda) already know about the better idea. And when the better idea, because the option is finally available, takes off here on their tester vehicles, and it rolls out to their mainstream vehicles....well, it won't be pretty for the Big 3.

 

P.S. The Euro data is used because we lack any Big 3 diesel options here in the US. If you want to compare non-Big 3 US diesel again non-Big 3 gas, then you basically have only the Mercedes and Jetta TDI at this point.

 

US Jetta gas: 21/29 (right inline with US competitors)

UD Jetta TDI: 30/41

 

So, um, which Big 3 Jetta competitor gets 41 mpg on the highway? (and, in reality, the owners are reporting much better than 41mpg highway)

 

It's hilarious that you have nothing substantive to say...so you just mislead and bash. I post up legit sh1t, you post up sh1t. Good one.

 

Chuck

[Deanh]

I don't have to...VW, Mercedes, and now Acura (Honda) already know about the better idea. And when the better idea, because the option is finally available, takes off here on their tester vehicles, and it rolls out to their mainstream vehicles....well, it won't be pretty for the Big 3.

 

P.S. The Euro data is used because we lack any Big 3 diesel options here in the US. If you want to compare non-Big 3 US diesel again non-Big 3 gas, then you basically have only the Mercedes and Jetta TDI at this point.

 

US Jetta gas: 21/29 (right inline with US competitors)

UD Jetta TDI: 30/41

 

So, um, which Big 3 Jetta competitor gets 41 mpg on the highway? (and, in reality, the owners are reporting much better than 41mpg highway)

 

It's hilarious that you have nothing substantive to say...so you just mislead and bash. I post up legit sh1t, you post up sh1t. Good one.

 

Chuck

ok......... 3 diesels...3 imports????? ONLY 3 odd imports ( possibly BMW, Audi to follow...but wonder why they are hesitating ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE )...account for how many sales? US TDI 41 mpgs...FANTASTIC! UNBELEIVABLE...run to the nearest VW dealership, 2nd on the house ...BUY now...a coup de gras...VW is KING. wonder why no-one else pursued that avenue...MORONS...the ignorance is AMzingly blissful, how come ONLY 3, do they know something about the American market NO_ONE else does....did they look into a technology NO_ONE ELSE did...bunch of losers, the arrogance of seemingly knowing better routes is AMAZINGLY shortsighted....jeez, the big three I can understand...should be a piece of cake to bring the ecotechs here, after all, plonk on a cat and thats it....but hell Toyota???????? THE biggest raises its nose....screw alternatives...diesel is IT MAN! And apologies if you take some of the crap aimed directly at you as bashing, but when someone is so openly blind to the fact that there is a legit reason for the fact diesel CARS have not been pursued, backed by obvious facts ( some positive some maybe not so ) and LOGICAL ( watch the Lutz video ) reasoning based on the UNITED STATES market pulse, then some can get perturbed at the persons lack of ability to weigh fact from fiction...... Edited September 17, 2008 by Deanh

[Deanh]

I don't have to...VW, Mercedes, and now Acura (Honda) already know about the better idea. And when the better idea, because the option is finally available, takes off here on their tester vehicles, and it rolls out to their mainstream vehicles....well, it won't be pretty for the Big 3.

 

P.S. The Euro data is used because we lack any Big 3 diesel options here in the US. If you want to compare non-Big 3 US diesel again non-Big 3 gas, then you basically have only the Mercedes and Jetta TDI at this point.

 

US Jetta gas: 21/29 (right inline with US competitors)

UD Jetta TDI: 30/41

 

So, um, which Big 3 Jetta competitor gets 41 mpg on the highway? (and, in reality, the owners are reporting much better than 41mpg highway)

 

It's hilarious that you have nothing substantive to say...so you just mislead and bash. I post up legit sh1t, you post up sh1t. Good one.

 

Chuck

PS...would you consider the Prius a TDI competitor.....like I have been trying to smack into your head...there are viable alternatives with possible superiority.....Prius number two WILL improve on Prius #1's numbers...THAT is whom ford should be taking notice of, and apparently are with the Fusion hybrid...which to me at least ( and be sure to correct me ) seems to be a cost efficient superior alternative....why pursue one technology when another can be superior?........

[Deanh]

nutshell...it is a shame fords small econectics are NOT able to make the trip, I like em...however...I UNDERSTAND why.......

[chucky2]

ok......... 3 diesels...3 imports????? ONLY 3 odd imports ( possibly BMW, Audi to follow...but wonder why they are hesitating ALONG WITH EVERYONE ELSE )...account for how many sales? US TDI 41 mpgs...FANTASTIC! UNBELEIVABLE...run to the nearest VW dealership, 2nd on the house ...BUY now...a coup de gras...VW is KING. wonder why no-one else pursued that avenue...MORONS...the ignorance is AMzingly blissful, how come ONLY 3, do they know something about the American market NO_ONE else does....did they look into a technology NO_ONE ELSE did...bunch of losers, the arrogance of seemingly knowing better routes is AMAZINGLY shortsighted....jeez, the big three I can understand...should be a piece of cake to bring the ecotechs here, after all, plonk on a cat and thats it....but hell Toyota???????? THE biggest raises its nose....screw alternatives...diesel is IT MAN! And apologies if you take some of the crap aimed directly at you as bashing, but when someone is so openly blind to the fact that there is a legit reason for the fact diesel CARS have not been pursued, backed by obvious facts ( some positive some maybe not so ) and LOGICAL ( watch the Lutz video ) reasoning based on the UNITED STATES market pulse, then some can get perturbed at the persons lack of ability to weigh fact from fiction......

 

Do you understand the concept of "emerging technology"? With clean diesel in the US, it's the emissions tech that needs to catch up to augment the already far superior diesel tech. I know this may be difficult to understand for you, but, when hybrids like the Prius hit, they were treated the same way. No one can deny the Prius hasn't been a success, nor spurred on that tech.

 

Clean diesel in the US will be the same way, it just needs time - and is just starting right now.

 

The point here is that Lutz, you, and the other naysayers are exactly like the same naysayers who shunned the Prius - you were/are wrong.

 

The beauty of the US system is that you give consumers the choice, and they decide what's the best for themselves. What the Big 3 are doing with clean diesel in respect to the US market is making that choice for the consumer (by offering us 0 choices), and then on top of that, having 0 alternatives to it. In comparison, the EU market, where consumers are offered the choice, those same consumers are chosing it 1:1 with gas: Just WTF does that tell you???

 

Ecoboost? It's great. But, Ford did it back@sswards and started with the 3.5L, not a fuel efficient I-4. Plus: Where is Ecoboost??? No where. An already expensive MKS (read: very little sales) is going to get it, then the Flex (which could really use a bump in its mpg figures to really one up the competition)...but, there'll be no bump. Why? Because Ford has said Ecoboost will give V-8 power w/ 20% better mileage. Great!!! But, think about that. If the NA 3.5L Flex already needs a mileage bump, then the Ecoboost 3.5L won't be better in mpg, it'll only be better than what a V-8 would have been. Doh!!!!!!!

 

Hybrid? The Big 3 don't even have a hybrid car yet. You say Fusion? I say where, and how expensive? You say Volt? I say where, and how expensive.?

 

Effectively, Lutz and you have thrown up the 5 things I've already debunked as factoids, when they're nothing more than excuses to hold us over to Big 3 hybrid (which uses these things called batteries) and I-4 Ecoboost hit (which doesn't even have a date from Ford...soon eh?). That three (not one) major manufacturers have already somehow done what Lutz said cannot be done, tells you your logic is, basically, F'd up.

 

Keep drinking that koolaid though...it's what's got the Big 3 exactly where they are today.

 

Chuck

[P71_CrownVic]

your logic is so flawed as to not even ellicit a response....this is America...keep the coparisons coming with diesel friendly Europe....and call every manufacturer and tell them YOU have a better idea.....IDIOT>

 

THEN DON'T RESPOND!!!

 

lol

[P71_CrownVic]

nutshell...it is a shame fords small econectics are NOT able to make the trip, I like em...however...I UNDERSTAND why.......

 

...Because the U.S is always behind Europe...no matter what the subject?

[Deanh]

Do you understand the concept of "emerging technology"? With clean diesel in the US, it's the emissions tech that needs to catch up to augment the already far superior diesel tech. I know this may be difficult to understand for you, but, when hybrids like the Prius hit, they were treated the same way. No one can deny the Prius hasn't been a success, nor spurred on that tech.

 

Clean diesel in the US will be the same way, it just needs time - and is just starting right now.

 

The point here is that Lutz, you, and the other naysayers are exactly like the same naysayers who shunned the Prius - you were/are wrong.

 

The beauty of the US system is that you give consumers the choice, and they decide what's the best for themselves. What the Big 3 are doing with clean diesel in respect to the US market is making that choice for the consumer (by offering us 0 choices), and then on top of that, having 0 alternatives to it. In comparison, the EU market, where consumers are offered the choice, those same consumers are chosing it 1:1 with gas: Just WTF does that tell you???

 

Ecoboost? It's great. But, Ford did it back@sswards and started with the 3.5L, not a fuel efficient I-4. Plus: Where is Ecoboost??? No where. An already expensive MKS (read: very little sales) is going to get it, then the Flex (which could really use a bump in its mpg figures to really one up the competition)...but, there'll be no bump. Why? Because Ford has said Ecoboost will give V-8 power w/ 20% better mileage. Great!!! But, think about that. If the NA 3.5L Flex already needs a mileage bump, then the Ecoboost 3.5L won't be better in mpg, it'll only be better than what a V-8 would have been. Doh!!!!!!!

 

Hybrid? The Big 3 don't even have a hybrid car yet. You say Fusion? I say where, and how expensive? You say Volt? I say where, and how expensive.?

 

Effectively, Lutz and you have thrown up the 5 things I've already debunked as factoids, when they're nothing more than excuses to hold us over to Big 3 hybrid (which uses these things called batteries) and I-4 Ecoboost hit (which doesn't even have a date from Ford...soon eh?). That three (not one) major manufacturers have already somehow done what Lutz said cannot be done, tells you your logic is, basically, F'd up.

 

Keep drinking that koolaid though...it's what's got the Big 3 exactly where they are today.

 

Chuck

shunned Prius....? nope, don't care for the car, but its a better ALTERNATIVE to the TDI. Hybrid Fusion December...so maybe January....eco 3.5, meh, agree ass backwards...small 1.6 or 2.0 may have been better, but we need the Fiesta here first no? 2.5 in the flex perhaps, think 2.0 would be too small....and yes it is annoying they are slow in coming...so no doubt we will lose MILIONS of sales , actually TRILLIONS to the TDI....opportunity left wantin...AGAIN! And sorry....it is just Ford that has ignored diesel.....my apologies....I sip, don't drink coolaid....I will voice my opinion.....good OR bad....but one has to weigh BOTH sides to draw a conclusion....on this topic you seem unable too.....so keep playing with napalm and flaming...BUT, realize there are two sides to every discussion....what you should do is compare year end sales numbers of the TDI, Mercedes and honda to whomever you are flaming and then perhaps force feed some of us so called realists crow.....pass the tabasco when you are ready....