Do You Understand Field's Logic? I Don't

[FordBuyer]

The 65 mpg Ford the U.S. Can't Have

Ford's Fiesta ECOnetic gets an astonishing 65 mpg, but the carmaker can't afford to sell it in the U.S.

 

The ECOnetic will go on sale in Europe in November

 

by David Kiley

 

This Issue

September 15, 2008

 

 

If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

 

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

 

Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.

 

Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."

 

None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.

 

TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT

First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.

 

Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.

 

The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.

 

Kiley is a senior correspondent in BusinessWeek's Detroit bureau.

[Extreme4x4]

At this point, yes I do.

 

Are you willing to pay $25K for a B-class car??? Now, before you answer, do understand that this engine does not meet US emissions standards. Thus, making it do so will decrease its fuel economy by a significant amount. Think fuel economy in the 40's. Also, before answering, remember that diesel fuel is still close to 20% more expensive than gasoline. Also, before you answer, remember that there is no culture of diesel cars in the US. People are dumping diesel trucks like the plague, due to the higher price of diesel.

 

With Fords current profitability issues, I just cannot see them taking a leap of faith that people in the US are going to embrace diesel cars, with their higher initial cost, higher maintenance costs, noise, and the diesel stigma. They will let a couple of the smaller manufacturers take the plunge, and see what happens.

 

When you do not have the money to throw away, you have to be cautious of how you spend it.

 

So, again, yes I do understand.

[pcsario]

Watch this and get back to us.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXA22Q0qXNM

[Edstock]

What's the problem? Nobody is bringing a B-size car to market with a diesel option.

 

C-size? Maybe the VW is here as a diesel, but we're still waiting for everybody else. That Mercedes is selling a diesel in a Mercedes sedan is completely irrelevant to Ford. You can probably figure out why.

 

So, it's going to be another 12 months until C-size diesels show up. Nobody knows how much they cost, and how well they run with US specs in real-world US conditions.

 

That leaves mid-size, and full-size. For mid-priced mid-size/full-size, the diesel option might just tank. All depends on the price of oil, and how well EcoBoost is received.

[TStag]

Interesrting article. Maybe Ford, GM and Chrysler should stop bitchin' about the state of the US car market and lobby hard for a change in fuel taxes. By encouraging Diesel uptake and by quickly getting a Diesel engine plant up and running in the USA the big 3 could switch cars like the Flex and the F-150 over to fuel efficient Diesel. Hell the big 3 should really bite the bullet and just source the same engines from one massive plant. This would reduce the cost of motoring to the public and may rescue sales. It's so obvious when you think about it. In fact it's so mind blowingly obvious that I can see why the Germans are already pushing the Diesel case hard, even in a tough tax environment. Maybe the Germans are anticipating this being the big 3's next move..... cunning.

[RichardJensen]

David Kiley is an idiot.

 

I hope you noticed how he completely FAILED to mention two things:

 

1) The dramatic difference between EPA fuel mileage under the current testing regimen and EU fuel mileage

 

2) The cost of certifying diesel engines for US emissions regs.

 

Thank you, Kiley, for putting your ignorance and hostility to FMC on display once more.

[Deanh]

Watch this and get back to us.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXA22Q0qXNM

perfect PC...PERFECT.....

[Edstock]

Maybe the Germans are anticipating this being the big 3's next move..... cunning.

 

Verrrrry interesting — but stupid!

[TStag]

David Kiley is an idiot.

 

I hope you noticed how he completely FAILED to mention two things:

 

1) The dramatic difference between EPA fuel mileage under the current testing regimen and EU fuel mileage

 

2) The cost of certifying diesel engines for US emissions regs.

 

Thank you, Kiley, for putting your ignorance and hostility to FMC on display once more.

 

Point's 1 and 2 could be "fixed" by big 3 lobbying and frankly that would benefit nearly all car makers but especially the big 3.

[Edstock]

Point's 1 and 2 could be "fixed" by big 3 lobbying and frankly that would benefit nearly all car makers but especially the big 3.

You guys don't use helmets when you play "football", right?

Edited September 5, 2008 by Edstock

[TStag]

You guys don't use helmets when you play "football", right?

 

Glad you called it football and not soccer :-)

 

I just think if GM, Ford and Chrysler leaned hard enough on Policy makers they would win out in the current economic climate. Bearing in mind they could also then combine diesel engine tech more effectively with hybrid tech then they could even go someway to getting emmisions down. Sure California may be a problem, but that may be overcome by offering to build a Diesel engine plant there......

[Extreme4x4]

Part of the reason that diesel is so much more expensive than gasoline, in the US, is the production constraints for ULSD. Reducing the fuel tax on diesel does nothing to solve the production constraint problem. Do remember that you don't just flip a switch and change from gasoline to more diesel production.

 

You put more diesel vehicles on the road, and the price of diesel will rise again.

 

The price of diesel here in the US has affected everything we buy, since most of our goods are hauled by diesel truck. You propose to make this worse.

 

BTW, what do you think the federal tax is on diesel fuel??? You might be surprised at how little removing it would save.

[Harley Lover]

To the OP, did you read the article? If you did, what don't you understand? Do you really think Ford could expect to sell the Fiesta at the price quoted in the article? In addition, the EU Fiesta diesel does not meet our emission standards, and would require even more costly capabilities to do so - so the estimated price quoted in the article would be even higher! And, as mentioned previously, the EU mpg figures are lower than the EPA figures.

 

I'd really love to see some modern diesel engines in the U.S., but the more I've learned about the issues, I understand the reluctance to commit on the part of the manufacturers.

 

The idea of a shared diesel engine plant between Ford and GM to overcome the volume concern is a great idea. They've collaborated on the 6 speed transaxle, maybe cooperating on an engine and sharing the plant could be a next step.

[Deanh]

You guys don't use helmets when you play "football", right?

called Rugby my dear chap....we have scrums, hookers, wings, props, lineouts, drop kicks, hands in a ruck, and a few other things that sound decidedly "Monty Python-ish"......three of the top teams are The All Blacks, the Springboks and the Wallabies......LOL!

Edited September 5, 2008 by Deanh

[Edstock]

A scrum — is that where they all get into a big jammed-up circle and try to rip off the jockstrap of the man at either side? I never knew that a prostate exam could be considered a sport.

 

Once upon a time, I used to take my English Bull Terrier for walks, often by a rugby pitch. She and I watched many a game. Neither of us could comprehend the rules. Me, I'm obviously stupid; she wanted the ball.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Edstock

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Watch this and get back to us.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXA22Q0qXNM

 

 

British built Trident Iceni - 200mph, 100mpg grand tourer - Make us one of these please Bob it will cut your trade deficit/Arab oil use, and put a bit of fun back into motoring at the same time and up you CAFE.

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENNEWS/tr...diesel-cars.htm

 

 

 

Trident Performance Vehicles have designed and produced a two-seater sports car that can reach over 200mph, get from 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and deliver up to 100mpg.

 

It's a diesel sports car and if you're able to obtain any kind of biodiesel, this can be used without any invalidation of warranty, adjustment to the engine or affect on performance.

Trident Iceni – specification

 

On the road price

 

Mass produce me one of these please Bob

 

Insurance group (est)

 

18

 

0-60mph

 

3.7 seconds

 

Top speed

 

200mph+

 

At constant 70mph

 

68.9mpg+

 

Wheelbase (mm)

 

2650

 

Front track (mm)

 

1650

 

Rear track (mm)

 

1690

 

Overall length (mm)

 

4200

 

Overall width (mm)

 

1950

 

Overall height (mm)

 

1220

 

Kerb weight (kgs)

 

1480

 

Engine

 

GM 6.6 TD V8

 

Max power

 

550bhp@3800rpm

 

Max torque

 

950lb/ft@1800rpm

 

Secific output

 

83bhp per litre

 

Power to weight ratio

 

402bhp per tonne

 

Installation

 

Longitudinal, front, rear-wheel-drive, rear gearbox

 

Construction

 

Alloy heads and iron block

 

Valve gear

 

4 per cylinder

 

Ignition and fuel

 

Bosch sequential injection, fly-by-wire throttle

 

Gearbox type

 

8-speed automatic

 

Final drive

 

2.56

 

Suspension

 

Front & rear double wishbones, coil springs, anti-

roll bar

 

Steering

 

Rack & pinion, power assisted, 2.7 turns lock to lock

to lock

 

Brakes front dia (mm)

 

365

 

Brakes rear dia (mm)

 

320

 

Wheels front

 

20" x 9.5"

 

Wheels rear

 

20" x 11"

 

Tyres front

 

255 x 35 x 20

 

Tyres rear

 

335 x 30 x 20

 

Edited September 5, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Deanh]

British built Trident Iceni - 200mph, 100mpg grand tourer - Make us one of these please Bob it will cut your trade deficit/Arab oil use, and put a bit of fun back into motoring at the same time and up you CAFE.

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENNEWS/tr...diesel-cars.htm

 

 

 

Trident Performance Vehicles have designed and produced a two-seater sports car that can reach over 200mph, get from 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and deliver up to 100mpg.

 

It's a diesel sports car and if you're able to obtain any kind of biodiesel, this can be used without any invalidation of warranty, adjustment to the engine or affect on performance.

Trident Iceni – specification

 

On the road price

 

Mass produce me one of these please Bob

 

Insurance group (est)

 

18

 

0-60mph

 

3.7 seconds

 

Top speed

 

200mph+

 

At constant 70mph

 

68.9mpg+

 

Wheelbase (mm)

 

2650

 

Front track (mm)

 

1650

 

Rear track (mm)

 

1690

 

Overall length (mm)

 

4200

 

Overall width (mm)

 

1950

 

Overall height (mm)

 

1220

 

Kerb weight (kgs)

 

1480

 

Engine

 

GM 6.6 TD V8

 

Max power

 

550bhp@3800rpm

 

Max torque

 

950lb/ft@1800rpm

 

Secific output

 

83bhp per litre

 

Power to weight ratio

 

402bhp per tonne

 

Installation

 

Longitudinal, front, rear-wheel-drive, rear gearbox

 

Construction

 

Alloy heads and iron block

 

Valve gear

 

4 per cylinder

 

Ignition and fuel

 

Bosch sequential injection, fly-by-wire throttle

 

Gearbox type

 

8-speed automatic

 

Final drive

 

2.56

 

Suspension

 

Front & rear double wishbones, coil springs, anti-

roll bar

 

Steering

 

Rack & pinion, power assisted, 2.7 turns lock to lock

to lock

 

Brakes front dia (mm)

 

365

 

Brakes rear dia (mm)

 

320

 

Wheels front

 

20" x 9.5"

 

Wheels rear

 

20" x 11"

 

Tyres front

 

255 x 35 x 20

 

Tyres rear

 

335 x 30 x 20

 

Jells...nothing against you in the slightest, but must you continually bring up George Jetson pipe dreams that will NEVER see the light of day on this side of the pond?.........we have mhlm and some others to ignore when such subjects raise their pipe dream heads......

[Ford Jellymoulds]

At this point, yes I do.

 

Are you willing to pay $25K for a B-class car???

 

Gasoline Fiesta costs more than in the UK, if you want to quote UK prices we will sell you a $41,500 Toyota Prius AT UK PRICES, got to say l would prefer the Fiesta diesel which is cheaper to buy new than a gasoline Fiesta and you could buy nearly two Diesel Fiestas for the same as price a Toyota Pricy you would get better MPG from the Fiesta compared to a gas guzzling Toyota Pricy, and the bomb proof diesel engine would have twice the longevity of gasoline engine fitted in a shitty Toyota Pricy.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Glad you called it football and not soccer :-)

 

I just think if GM, Ford and Chrysler leaned hard enough on Policy makers they would win out in the current economic climate. Bearing in mind they could also then combine diesel engine tech more effectively with hybrid tech then they could even go someway to getting emmisions down. Sure California may be a problem, but that may be overcome by offering to build a Diesel engine plant there......

 

Obama is a legislator and he said in Detroit meeting things will have to CHANGE on C02 and Global Warming if he becomes and he will change things meaning laws, gasoline cars are not C02 friendly, Diesel cars produce 30-40% less C02 and they are 30% more fuel efficent so l can see big changes coming when the peak oil curve dropping downhill fast laws on diesels will change fast with it.

 

Obama talks on Global Warming and Detroits car makers.

[FordBuyer]

I could be wrong, but doesn't VW produce diesel cars in Mexico and ship them all over the place? As for diesel prices, in Metro Detroit they have dropped over $.75 in last month or so. If Ford doesn't offer the option, you know others like Honda will, that's for sure. I would hope that Ford has at least tested some Fiesta's with diesel engine that would meet American regs to see where the problems are and how good the fuel mileage is. At least do that and see if it's doable. Ford needs a game changer and needs it soon just like GM does. Hopefully GM has it in the Volt and Ford needs more than V6 with power of V8 and 24mpg. Ford has all this diesel experience in Europe and hopefully some of it can translate over to America in some way before Ford drops to under 100,000 sales/month. Looks to me like Ford will need hybrids, Ecoboost, and diesels to meet new CAFE regs.

[joihan777]

British built Trident Iceni - 200mph, 100mpg grand tourer - Make us one of these please Bob it will cut your trade deficit/Arab oil use, and put a bit of fun back into motoring at the same time and up you CAFE.

http://www.greencarsite.co.uk/GREENNEWS/tr...diesel-cars.htm

 

 

 

Trident Performance Vehicles have designed and produced a two-seater sports car that can reach over 200mph, get from 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and deliver up to 100mpg.

 

It's a diesel sports car and if you're able to obtain any kind of biodiesel, this can be used without any invalidation of warranty, adjustment to the engine or affect on performance.

Trident Iceni – specification

 

On the road price

 

Mass produce me one of these please Bob

 

"Their fantastic fuel economy is achieved through technology called torque multiplication and it can be applied to all diesel cars. In short, Trident have the solution to what we're told is a huge problem."

 

What's that? Is it real and will it last?

 

Frankly, diesel is still a hydrocarbon burning technology.

 

I'd rather see Ford invest in pure electrics that plug into solar home garages and range 80-100mi./charge.

[fbmphil]

What's that? Is it real and will it last?

 

It's vaporware is what it is. Torque multiplication is simply the use of gears. Seriously.

Edited September 6, 2008 by fbmphil

[V8 Ford]

I could be wrong, but doesn't VW produce diesel cars in Mexico and ship them all over the place? As for diesel prices, in Metro Detroit they have dropped over $.75 in last month or so. If Ford doesn't offer the option, you know others like Honda will, that's for sure. I would hope that Ford has at least tested some Fiesta's with diesel engine that would meet American regs to see where the problems are and how good the fuel mileage is. At least do that and see if it's doable. Ford needs a game changer and needs it soon just like GM does. Hopefully GM has it in the Volt and Ford needs more than V6 with power of V8 and 24mpg. Ford has all this diesel experience in Europe and hopefully some of it can translate over to America in some way before Ford drops to under 100,000 sales/month. Looks to me like Ford will need hybrids, Ecoboost, and diesels to meet new CAFE regs.

If Honda, or anyone else has plans for a B car diesel, I've yet to hear it.

 

The problems with diesels don't require a US spec emissions system to be designed and tested. The urea injection system is expensive and the overall emissions package reduces power and fuel economy.

 

The Volt is not a game changer. It won't be built in large volumes and it will lose money.

 

Ford has already outlined its fuel economy strategy:

, around the 3 minute mark.

Short Term: Ecoboost, aerodynamics, reduction of parasitic loss

Mid Term: Hybrids, Lighter Vehicles, Plug in Hybrids, Diesels

Long Term: Large Scale introduction of Hybrids, Hydrogen, other alternate energies

Edited September 6, 2008 by V8 Ford

[joihan777]

If Honda, or anyone else has plans for a B car diesel, I've yet to hear it.

 

The problems with diesels don't require a US spec emissions system to be designed and tested. The urea injection system is expensive and the overall emissions package reduces power and fuel economy.

 

The Volt is not a game changer. It won't be built in large volumes and it will lose money.

 

Ford has already outlined its fuel economy strategy:

, around the 3 minute mark.

Short Term: Ecoboost, aerodynamics, reduction of parasitic loss

Mid Term: Hybrids, Lighter Vehicles, Plug in Hybrids, Diesels

Long Term: Large Scale introduction of Hybrids, Hydrogen, other alternate energies

 

Ya'll do know what urea is don't ya? Can't imagine the want-ads for the collectors.....

 

The Volt is pretty cool for what it is, but I think electrics ( so far) are better suited for smaller, commuter vehicles.

 

I still think pure electric systems should debut in the Fiesta and slowly grow from there, once proven stable, reliable and economical.

(BTW When I say proven I really mean public perception with some science thrown in for the lawyers!)

 

Technology like used in the Aptera I believe is the best avenue because the ultimate source of energy is the Sun, not the Saudis. Diesel comes from the saudis don't 'cha know!

 

[joihan777]

oops, double post

Edited September 6, 2008 by joihan777