Do You Understand Field's Logic? I Don't

[Extreme4x4]

Do diesel outsell hybrids in the US?

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/03/diesel_passenge.html

 

Wow............... thats the way to support your arguement. A 3.5 year old article about 4-8 year old data.............. that talks about diesels in trucks.

 

Yepper, that sure showed us that everyone is willing to buy a diesel engine in a B-class car.

 

A few hints to you, "over there."

1) The auto market in the US is 180 degrees different than it was in 2005.

2) Light duty and heavy duty trucks do not equal tiny little inexpensive cars. People like diesels in trucks, because of their ability to do work............ as in pull or haul a heavy load, due to their low end torque characteristics. Not too many people are looking at towing a boat or TT with a Fiesta.

3) The US government will not falsely prop up diesel fuel (as in making gasoline more expensive), nor will they relax emissions regs on diesel vehicles, to promote diesel use in cars................ like they do in Europe. Will not happen. No amount of lobbying the government is going to change this.

4) The automotive culture in Europe and the US is completely different. Using Europe as an example, only makes your arguements look silly. The only place that common ground is STARTING to appear, is in the desirability of small cars. Even that is just starting. We have a huge, wide open country that people like to see. We like to travel in comfort, with our legs spread out. We have nice wide streets that accomodate any vehicle that we choose to buy, and we have much larger lots that our homes sit on............. thus, parking, for most of us, is a non issue.

 

Finally, the fun part of any "data," is how it was presented. Most of us, "over here," understand that. If someone approaches you, and asks you a question........... you can bet your bottom that the question will be worded to ensure that the responses will support their position. In other words, if I ask you "If diesel cars and light trucks were available to you today, that got 25% better mileage than gas versions, and sound or drive no different than gas versions.............. and even cost the same............. would you be interested in considering one for purchase."

 

If someone says no, they look like an idiot.

 

P, read the first post of this thread. The info came from the article.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Extreme4x4

[P71_CrownVic]

P, read the first post of this thread. The info came from the article.

 

Oh...you mean the article that is being torn to shreds in this thread?

 

Do you believe everything you read on the internet?

 

You obviously know that the Honda Jazz (our Fit) starts at 9217 British Pounds or $16,381.90. It tops out at 13,310 British Pounds or $23,652.

 

I didn't realize that our Fit started at $16K and topped at $23K.

 

Oh....wait.....according to this source (I hope they are credible enough for you...), the Fit starts at $14,550 and tops at $21,760 here in the U.S. And...if I am not mistaken, the US prices are not direct conversions of the UK prices.

 

If that is not clear enough for you, take the BMW 3-series convertible. In the UK, it's prices are between 31K pounds ($55,000 dollars) and tops at 55K pounds (or $97K dollars).

 

Now, do you think that the 3-Series convertible costs that much in the U.S?

[V8 Ford]

And last I checked, adding $3K-$5K to a $14K car...does NOT equal $25K.

How do you know a US spec Econetic diesel would be $5,000 over the base engine? Do you challenge the notion that the performance and cost changes would make it unviable in the US?

[P71_CrownVic]

How do you know a US spec Econetic diesel would be $5,000 over the base engine? Do you challenge the notion that the performance and cost changes would make it unviable in the US?

 

I was quoting Extreme 4X4 who seems to have a problem with basic math:

 

Put this in contrast to adding $3000-5000 more to a $14K car (Fiesta).

 

But in her first post, she said that the same car would cost $25K here...

 

$14K + $3K-$5K does not equal $25K.

 

At this point, yes I do.

 

Are you willing to pay $25K for a B-class car???

Edited September 7, 2008 by P71_CrownVic

[V8 Ford]

So you were only nitpicking on calculations, but agree with Lutz, Fields and the consensus among auto makers by voice of product that B car diesels won't be feasible in the US any time soon?

[P71_CrownVic]

So you were only nitpicking on calculations, but agree with Lutz, Fields and the consensus among auto makers by voice of product that B car diesels won't be feasible in the US any time soon?

 

I am a huge supporter of diesels...but because of the fact that diesels would reduce our oil consumption, the feds have taught us that they are evil through their extremely stringent regs and prices.

[V8 Ford]

I take that to mean that you don't think they're viable at the moment.

BTW, in the US diesel’s are subject to the same emmisions regulations as gas engines in passenger cars.

[Edstock]

the feds have taught us that they are evil through their extremely stringent regs and prices.

The Feds have taught you that they are evil. Whether anybody else feels that they are evil, is a matter of speculation.

 

The Feds haven't taught me anything about whether diesels are evil; they have, however, informed us as to how dirty diesels are, and how much cleaning is necessary.

[syrtran]

I am a huge supporter of diesels...but because of the fact that diesels would reduce our oil consumption, the feds have taught us that they are evil through their extremely stringent regs and prices.

Go ask anyone who's lived in Los Angeles more than 45 years just how evil NOX and particulates - the main pollutants of both smog and diesel - are. IOW, breathing > mileage.

 

This isn't P's point, but the 1973 Clean Air Act has been overseen and strengthened by both Republican and Democratic governments, so it seems that both sides think it's a good idea.

[P71_CrownVic]

Go ask anyone who's lived in Los Angeles more than 45 years just how evil NOX and particulates - the main pollutants of both smog and diesel - are. IOW, breathing > mileage.

 

This isn't P's point, but the 1973 Clean Air Act has been overseen and strengthened by both Republican and Democratic governments, so it seems that both sides think it's a good idea.

 

I don't care about SoCal...nothing is desirable about that place. And what happens in SoCal...shouldn't dictitate regulations for the rest of the country.

 

If you don't like the smog in SoCal...leave.

[chucky2]

Read through the entire thread and all I can do is, cynically, laugh out loud - especially at the Lutz video.

 

Here we have the Big 3 that have been asleep at the wheel (love that accurate comment at the end of the video, which Lutz of course doesn't agree with), and Honda is about to destroy them with the diesel '09 Acura TSA...in the US, meeting 50 state regs, with no urea needed (as Lutz said was required).

 

A 50+ mpg (highway), 34mpg (city) TSX. Sure hope Ford is ready to release that 2.0 I-4 Ecoboost, they're going to need it when this thing hits.

 

(I hear a sound.....it sounds like Big 3 sales going down the tubes once this thing hits the US market)

 

Chuck

 

P.S. Sorry for the negative first post, but it's mostly out of frustration that my own country can't F'ing produce something that gets 50+ mpg on the highway, yet they already sell exactly what we need oversea's.

 

EDIT: My bad, it's not Honda providing a '09 diesel Accord, it's them providing an Acura TSA diesel.

Edited September 8, 2008 by chucky2

[one2gamble]

it's mostly out of frustration that my own country can't F'ing produce something that gets 50+ mpg on the highway,

 

 

yet they already sell exactly what we need oversea's.

[RichardJensen]

A 50+ mpg (highway), 34mpg (city) Accord.

Not going to happen.

 

Diesel JETTA doesn't get anything CLOSE to that, and that car is probably close to a thousand pounds lighter than the Accord.

[RichardJensen]

For those of you just joining in:

 

 

1) US diesel emissions regulations are significantly more stringent than EU regulations. Modifications required to meed US emissions regulations (including exhaust flow constricting particulate matter traps) impact mileage.

 

2) US mileage ratings are NOT comparable to EU mileage ratings. They were not before the EPA implemented a tougher testing regimen, and they are decidedly different now that new testing regimens are in place.

 

3) The US taxes diesel fuel differently than the EU does.

[chucky2]

@ one2gamble (sorry about not quoting you, but, the forum quoting is broken apperantly):

 

You're right, I should have better stated that. What I should have said is I'm beyond frustrated with my own country not providing me the same options - or better - that they've been providing other countries for years now. Especially when other companies, in this case Honda (for Acura for the time being), can do so.

 

Chuck

[RichardJensen]

Chuck:

 

You may want to check on Honda's past promises of a diesel Accord in 2009.

 

 

 

 

 

And you may want to seriously reconsider the differences between the US and the European Union when it comes to diesel regulation.

 

Finally, don't get your opinions from David Kiley. He's a terrible reporter.

[chucky2]

Not going to happen.

 

Diesel JETTA doesn't get anything CLOSE to that, and that car is probably close to a thousand pounds lighter than the Accord.

 

I edited my original post since I was wrong, it wasn't the '09 Accord that Honda is bringing this to the US under, it's the '09 Acura TSX.

 

Regardless:

 

1.) It's 50 state legal - which Lutz says he can't do.

2.) It doesn't use urea - which Lutz says he must do to meet emissions.

3.) It'll be here (relatively) soon - where US options are no where.

4.) It'll get significantly better mileage than anything the Big 3 can hope to offer.

5.) Where are my clean diesel US options?!!??!?!

 

Worse, wait until the diesel Acura TSX takes off in sales. Honda will roll that tech out to the Accord and Civic. Then the Big 3 are going to have a serious problem on their hands in that a TSX isn't anywhere near a common option people look at as Accord and Civic. What's going to happen when people go shopping and can get 50+ mpg Civic's and Accord's, and the best Detroit has is 30+ mpg.

 

Answer: Death.

 

Chuck

Edited September 8, 2008 by chucky2

[silvrsvt]

Worse, wait until the diesel Acura TSX takes off in sales. Honda will roll that tech out to the Accord and Civic. Then the Big 3 are going to have a serious problem on their hands in that a TSX isn't anywhere near a common option people look at as Accord and Civic. What's going to happen when people go shopping and can get 50+ mpg Civic's and Accord's, and the best Detroit has is 30+ mpg.

 

Where in the hell are you getting these MPG numbers from? Your ass?

 

Lets also not forget that (well where i live) Deisel is $4.50 a gallon and Gas is only 3.31 or so for Regular...

 

The extra $1.20 a gallon in addition to the additional cost of buying a Diesel engine makes it even stupid to consider a car like that...

[V8 Ford]

Another example of Fuel Economy differences: 50MPG E320CDI (UK), 32MPG E320 (US)

Edited September 8, 2008 by V8 Ford

[RichardJensen]

Honda will roll that tech out to the Accord and Civic.

Honda originally promised it on the Accord.

 

http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2007...g-for-2009.html

 

Now, it's only being rolled out on the TSX.

[RichardJensen]

Another example of Fuel Economy differences: 50MPG E320CDI (UK), 32MPG E320 (US)

and please note that after you turn those imperial gallons into US gallons, you're still looking at 40mpg vs. 32mpg, or a figure 20% lower than the UK/EU figure.

[Ron W.]

@ one2gamble (sorry about not quoting you, but, the forum quoting is broken apperantly):

 

 

You could be wrong.. :reading:

[chucky2]

Where in the hell are you getting these MPG numbers from? Your ass?

 

Lets also not forget that (well where i live) Deisel is $4.50 a gallon and Gas is only 3.31 or so for Regular...

 

The extra $1.20 a gallon in addition to the additional cost of buying a Diesel engine makes it even stupid to consider a car like that...

 

Nope, from here:

 

May 18th, 2008: New York Times drives diesel pre-prod '09 Acura TSX.

 

In respect to diesel prices, the common number thrown out is diesel if 20% more expensive that gas, which where I'm at, trends true give or take 10-15 cents.

 

Keep making excuses for the Big 3....that's exactly what got them where they're at now.

 

Chuck

[chucky2]

You could be wrong.. :reading:

 

I could be, but, I'm not. I even cleared my IE cache and logged back in, trying it again. It'd pull up a screen for me to respond, but, nothing quoted...hence, my message to him in parathesis.

 

Chuck

[chucky2]

Honda originally promised it on the Accord.

 

http://blogs.edmunds.com/straightline/2007...g-for-2009.html

 

Now, it's only being rolled out on the TSX.

 

Makes sense from a Risk perspective...trialing it in the TSX first. When it takes off - and, given the mpg, it will - they'll roll it out into the Accord for sure. Civic probably, but that's a cheaper car so maybe not. Then again, a scaled down engine with the same 2.2L tech in the Civic would get most likely 55+ mpg highway...pretty hard to argue with that.

 

Chuck