chucky2 Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Chucks beleif is obvious that he beleives Diesel is the holy grail...I for one do not beleive that fact...I think there are viable and perhaps superior alternatives right around the corner..FACT is the big three have weighed the diesel alternatives benefits, viabilty, costs and liabilities....and guess what they are unnaimous in their decision.....along with 99% of the ENTIRE bunch of manufacturers on this side of the pond.....so, either two manufacturers are brilliant or perhaps mistaken......I for one would back the majority...there is a reason they/ we have NOT pursued it here in the States.....and it is NOT going to hurt us in the slightest, in fact it will probably lead to the developement of a powertrain that will make the diesels redundant........win win I say :shades: No, I don't believe it's the holy grail, but I believe it's a superior option worth exploring.. What we have with Lutz and the diesel boogeymen is that diesel is evil, it's not fit for US consumption. To which I (and the many people who've plunked down $2k to get on an '09 Jetta TDI waiting list ((how many are on waiting lists for Fusion's??)) say: Bullsh1t. At the very F'ing least, give me a choice, let me make up my own mind. Instead what we get here is gas options that get high 20's/low 30's, and expensive hybrid....super, great selection there. As far as backing the majority (Big 3), I wouldn't list that as a positive - there's a reason they're in the shape they're in. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 friend in Ireland just had to replace a high pressure pump for the second time in his Pug.....the repairs were more than the car is worth...........2 cambelts cannot have been cheap Jelly.....but 200k ( miles or KM's ) if miles is not bad at all.... My brother had to have the headgaskets done on his T-birg, 96k....almost as much as the car was worth. What's the point? Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Chucks appeared just as mlhm5 the VW lover disappeared my thoughts exactly....VERY suspicious..... I have no clue who that is...have a Mod check my IP vs. his, shouldn't be hard to do... Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 (edited) No, I don't believe it's the holy grail, but I believe it's a superior option worth exploring.. What we have with Lutz and the diesel boogeymen is that diesel is evil, it's not fit for US consumption. To which I (and the many people who've plunked down $2k to get on an '09 Jetta TDI waiting list ((how many are on waiting lists for Fusion's??)) say: Bullsh1t. At the very F'ing least, give me a choice, let me make up my own mind. Instead what we get here is gas options that get high 20's/low 30's, and expensive hybrid....super, great selection there. As far as backing the majority (Big 3), I wouldn't list that as a positive - there's a reason they're in the shape they're in. Chuck Mhlm...is that you?.... Chuck, youre getting way too carried away...the option HAS been weighed....results are posted...and basically only TWO have jumped the fence...it could be ( doubtful ) brilliant or basically a failure...go buy your VW or Honda diesel and say goodbye...YOU are a minority whom is incapable of realizing there are perhaps better alternatives on the way and being developed by people a LOT closer to the pulse than yourself....if it made true sense EVERYONE would be aboard....I repeat EVERYONE Edited September 11, 2008 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 (because from what VW is saying, it sounds like the EPA testing for car diesel maybe isn't quite so accurate, hence their independent 3rd party testing that got 44 mpg highway). Actually, the MFR does the EPA testing. And the test regimen is exactly the same for diesel and gasoline. In fact, what kills diesel is the heavier acceleration in the new EPA test. You can handily beat the EPA estimates by driving like you've got an egg under your foot, but you can do that with gas engines as well. However, how many people drive that way in the real world? Heavy acceleration really takes a toll on diesel mileage, as acceleration requires HP, not torque, and diesel engines don't do so hot on HP. Diesel is marginally more expensive that gas to buy, and cheaper to fuel, with equal maintenance costs Can you furnish proof of this? Using US figures, please? Esp. on maintenance costs. Please note that I've posted links for my assertions. The least you could do is the same. If you include the tax credit (which is limited in duration), yes, you can pay for your Jetta with fuel savings--over a sufficiently long period of time. http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/twip/twip.asp Roughly 11% more for diesel fuel, nationwide, right now, eats into the 33% savings in EPA fuel economy. It renders that improvement 22%. --- And there's still the small matter of Prius list and economy vs. Jetta list and economy that was posted earlier. They're the same, comparable interior room, and the Prius gets significantly better EPA mileage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 My brother had to have the headgaskets done on his T-birg, 96k....almost as much as the car was worth. What's the point? Chuck wow...my dad just had his water pump go at 135k on a focus....only thing that has ever gone wrong...your point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I have no clue who that is...have a Mod check my IP vs. his, shouldn't be hard to do... They can do that? Then they should check the IP of my two wonderful alter egos. And then check that with the IP of a few :cheerleader:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 They can do that? Then they should check the IP of my two wonderful alter egos. And then check that with the IP of a few :cheerleader:. Buddy, you've been warned about this kind of stuff. You will get banned if you pursue this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 I have no clue who that is...have a Mod check my IP vs. his, shouldn't be hard to do... Chuck Home IP might not be the same as one used at work but could be the same person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Home IP might not be the same as one used at work but could be the same person. A universe that can generate the current American political envirionment is obviously capable of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 wow...my dad just had his water pump go at 135k on a focus....only thing that has ever gone wrong...your point? A full tank of diesel is worth more than the wifes Pug Deanh , the engine should out live the bodywork though. Not had any problems with yet water pump yet, but l did have to reshim the self adjusting bucket tappets at 110,000 because the exhaust valves clearances tend to get smaller and hold the valves open as the valve gear wears and so the compression was a bit down, and it did have problems starting in the winter at the time so diesels are far from perfect, but l like as you don't have to touch them to much compared to a gasoline car. Still working on the wife to buy herself a new Fiesta Deanh, but she paid for Pug when it was new when she brought it 12 years ago, she wants to buy a new Pug 207 diesel, if not she says she will keep what shes already got, she's a stubburn old bitch (That not the car l am talking about, l bet her ears are burning). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 A full tank of diesel is worth more than the wifes Pug Deanh , the engine should out live the bodywork though. Not had any problems with yet water pump yet, but l did have to reshim the self adjusting bucket tappets at 110,000 because the exhaust valves clearances tend to get smaller and hold the valves open as the valve gear wears and so the compression was a bit down, and it did have problems starting in the winter at the time so diesels are far from perfect, but l like as you don't have to touch them to much compared to a gasoline car. Still working on the wife to buy herself a new Fiesta Deanh, but she paid for Pug when it was new when she brought it 12 years ago, she wants to buy a new Pug 207 diesel, if not she says she will keep what shes already got, she's a stubburn old bitch (That not the car l am talking about, l bet her ears are burning). 207 Pugs...love em.....my buddies problem child is a 507....one issue after another but he veiws the repairs as a monthly payment as he owns it outright...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 A universe that can generate the current American political envirionment is obviously capable of anything. Its funny how the poor ole Americans seem to get blamed for all the worlds problems BA are the latest casualty they will be mothballing & selling aircraft they and look like getting rid of quarter aircraft staff etc so Boeing will be hit by this also, l wonder how it is all happening when the price of oil has dropped from $147 down to $99 a barrel. I cant see how folk can blame the political environment l think it has more to do with peak oil it does not matter who is in power, but l gotta say having Bushie has not helped things a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I cant see how folk can blame the political environment l think it has more to do with peak oil it does not matter who is in power, but l gotta say having Bushie has not helped things a lot. The process started a long time ago, in the late 70's; what made it possible was the advent of cheap computers. Add greed and wait 30 years. If you visit YouTube, search for "The Corporation", which is quite illuminating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemiman Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Can you furnish proof of this? Using US figures, please? Esp. on maintenance costs. Pretty much any fleet manager will tell you diesels, are FAR less maint intensive than gassers. I was involved in the transition from gas to diesels with the fleet where I work. Maint costs were 40% less on the diesels at the time of the study, (1993). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Back then, they were much less expensive to maintain. The biggest problem with the newer diesel maintanance, is all of the emission control garbage. For instance, in the 6.4L diesel engine, there are 2 EGR's (a troublesome part), and a HUGE particulates filter that will need to be replaced at some point. Also, the sophisticated injectors that are used now, are more troublesome, and more likely to be replaced. The problem with all of this, is these parts are pricey.................. very pricey. Ahhhhh, the cost of "progress." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Pretty much any fleet manager will tell you diesels, are FAR less maint intensive than gassers. I was involved in the transition from gas to diesels with the fleet where I work. Maint costs were 40% less on the diesels at the time of the study, (1993). I would disagree totally with that..........mind you I reference the 6.0 and 6.4......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemiman Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 I would disagree totally with that..........mind you I reference the 6.0 and 6.4......... We currently spec all of our bucket trucks on F-450 chassis with PS diesels. Didn't have any of the issues plastered all over the internet. Early 6.0's did get about 6 reflashes of the ECU but nothing major like th horror stories I've heared. 6.4's are excellent. We still have some of our first 7.3's in service, (great engine). Tried some GM 6.5's but found wanting in power and durability for the heft of our trucks. Haven't tried any Duramax's or Dodge Cummins. Some of our older big trucks had Ford 6.6L I-6 diesels. That was an outstanding engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 We currently spec all of our bucket trucks on F-450 chassis with PS diesels. Didn't have any of the issues plastered all over the internet. Early 6.0's did get about 6 reflashes of the ECU but nothing major like th horror stories I've heared. 6.4's are excellent. We still have some of our first 7.3's in service, (great engine). Tried some GM 6.5's but found wanting in power and durability for the heft of our trucks. Haven't tried any Duramax's or Dodge Cummins. Some of our older big trucks had Ford 6.6L I-6 diesels. That was an outstanding engine. FINALLY they seem to have issues rectified......right before the 6.7 no less, but my comment was pertaining to maintenence costs.....they are almost 1 1/2 times the costs to mainmtain than the V10.....and only gain ground in MPG's at a cost north of 6500 dollars........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemiman Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 they are almost 1 1/2 times the costs to mainmtain than the V10.....and only gain ground in MPG's at a cost north of 6500 dollars........... Not in my world. We still have E250/350 vans/cab & chissis with 5.4L gassers. It's no contest. The gassers are down way more than the diesels. Not only do we have to pay the mechanic to diagnose and repair the problem, but we have a field technician sitting or transfering tools to a loaner. The diesels are SO reliable, that when there is a problem, the first thing suspected is, a bad fuel delivery. Honestly, the only problem we have with our diesels, is cooling system issues, but the gassers share in that too. PS. the tech down time was not used in the original 1993 diesel vs gasser cost calculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Not in my world. We still have E250/350 vans/cab & chissis with 5.4L gassers. It's no contest. The gassers are down way more than the diesels. Not only do we have to pay the mechanic to diagnose and repair the problem, but we have a field technician sitting or transfering tools to a loaner. The diesels are SO reliable, that when there is a problem, the first thing suspected is, a bad fuel delivery. Honestly, the only problem we have with our diesels, is cooling system issues, but the gassers share in that too. PS. the tech down time was not used in the original 1993 diesel vs gasser cost calculation. funny...our heavy line ( diesel ) mechanics are BURIED...who knows....also have some fleets running 300k and plus on their 4.6's and 5.4's.....also 12 quarts of oil was a tad more than six last time i checked....all i am sayinmg is regular maintenence on a diesel IS more expensive than the gassers and WARRANTY claims are WAY more prevelent...so much so that i beleive the powertrain warrantyw as just increased to 200 k to ease consumers concerns about the ongoing navistar problems.......i Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 The diesels are SO reliable, that when there is a problem, the first thing suspected is, a bad fuel delivery. Of course. Diesels are far more reliable than gas engines. More power and more reliable...yep...that's a strong case against them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Not in my world. We still have E250/350 vans/cab & chissis with 5.4L gassers. It's no contest. Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily translate to passenger applications. I wonder how well passenger diesels will stand up to the kind of abuse the typical owner gives his typical automobile (i.e. deferred maintenance, jackrabbit starts, etc.) I would guess that your diesels don't get run at 11/10ths and do get all their scheduled maintenance spot-on-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 Of course. Diesels are far more reliable than gas engines. More power and more reliable...yep...that's a strong case against them. wrong....more torque for similar displacement.....as for more reliable, I don't think so....witness crying Duramax drivers, Navistar owners and TDI owners standing on the side of the road....statistically since there are WAY fewer diesels on the road perhaps....as for %'s the story IMO would turn dramatically...this of course is based HERE in So Cal where warmth may be an issue....oh, and everyone seems to have brushed off the problems had with the turbo's....all I can say is thank god for warrantys....doesn't make the owner too happy being without his vehicle for 2-3 weeks..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted September 12, 2008 Share Posted September 12, 2008 wrong....more torque for similar displacement.....as for more reliable, I don't think so....witness crying Duramax drivers, Navistar owners and TDI owners standing on the side of the road....statistically since there are WAY fewer diesels on the road perhaps....as for %'s the story IMO would turn dramatically...this of course is based HERE in So Cal where warmth may be an issue....oh, and everyone seems to have brushed off the problems had with the turbo's....all I can say is thank god for warrantys....doesn't make the owner too happy being without his vehicle for 2-3 weeks..... Oh, btw, Ford NA's answer to higher-mileage vehicles is (gas) twin turbo's. You may have heard of that. Heat does affect things like wear inside engines, and especially happens where things run faster. Valves, pistons, cranks, all of that runs faster on gas engines. There aren't any industrial gas engine applications to speak of precisely because, well, you are wrong about diesel; it is a superior technology. The 6.8 is not an argument against diesel. It's an argument against poor subcontracting and manufacturing quality, period. Thanks for playing, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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