Who Should Christians Vote for in 08?

[RaZor]

The McCain campaign, during the 2008 election, has repeatedly attacked Barack Obama for advocating that the U.S. federal government seek more wealth equality in America, by "spreading the wealth." But McCain's running mate Sarah Palin is closely associated, as noted in a recent New York Times story, with "spiritual warfare", an aggressive approach to evangelizing developed by the leaders of a worldwide religious movement which promotes a religiously based wealth transfer scheme as a means to implement theocracy. Story, with extensive documentation, also refers to newly released 36 page study on the religious movement closely tied to Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin.

 

The Bible says the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous.

 

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/11/1/14522/8804

[Edstock]

Boogity boogity. As Mulder observed, "When you talk to God, that's called praying; when God talks to you, that's called schizophrenia".

 

 

 

A Prophetic Warning

Homer Owen & Steve Foss

Oct 30, 2008

 

 

 

I am forwarding the following prophetic warning to all of my list in hopes that we will join our hearts with the heart of the God of all mercy. May God truly have mercy on us in these days.

 

Blessings,

Homer and Ruby

 

 

 

A Prophetic Warning from Pastor Steve Foss Sat, 25 Oct 2008

 

I am writing to you today an urgent message concerning the coming American election. God has released me to share with you a powerful prophecy He gave me eight years ago. I have shared this prophecy in a number of public meetings, but I have never published it for all our friends and partners.

 

In January of 2000 God gave me an incredible insight into what was about to happen in the coming elections in America over the next decade.

 

I am not using this e-mail to tell you, who are citizens of America, who to vote for. However, you need to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying. Never in my 22 years of ministry have I seen such a spirit of delusion released upon our country.

 

In January of 2000, while the Republican nomination for president was far from being decided, God spoke to me that George W. Bush would be the president of the United States.

He told me it would be the hardest fought election in American history. I'm sure we can all remember the incredible battle that took place in Florida. He told me that President Bush would be elected to two terms. He told me that during Bush's term there would be a season of unprecedented economic prosperity.

 

Now despite what the media has said, the economic wealth created during the last eight years was unprecedented. I know the media and one of the political parties has been trying to paint the last eight years as the worst economic time in American history, but it is absolutely untrue. If you look at the wealth created, there were more millionaires created in the last eight years than any time in history.

Multitudes of people were able to sell real estate before the housing market collapse, and received incredible transfers of wealth. I could spend hours showing documentation of the wealth created, but suffice it to say, the evidence is there.

 

God then said to me, "At the end of President Bush's second term there would be an economic collapse." As everyone in the world knows, we have just faced the greatest economic threat since 1929 and the Great Depression. I will speak a little more about the present economic situation a little later in this message.

 

Every detail that God gave me has come to pass exactly as He said. Now there is one more important thing that God spoke to me. This is the purpose and the reason I am writing this e-mail today. God spoke to me that after George W. Bush, America would elect its most ungodly president ever.

I'm going to say that again. God spoke to me that after George W. Bush, America would elect its most ungodly president ever.

 

As of the writing of this e-mail we are now less than two weeks away from voting for our next president. At this time the polls are strongly showing that the Democratic nominee for president will easily win the White House.

 

Now in 2006 I began to ask the Lord, "Is that guaranteed to happen in 2008?" He spoke to me very clearly and gave me the key words to what I believe holds this election in the balance right now. He gave me these key words that can forever change what is about to happen in America.

 

He said, "It depends on the Christians."

 

I am not going to endorse a candidate, nor am I telling anyone who to vote for. I am simply sharing what God has shown me.

 

I had a vision earlier this year. I saw Barack Obama in this vision. He was speaking to a large crowd and being broadcast on television. He was speaking incredible words of unity, peace, and bringing all sides together; the words were elegant, the words were comforting, and the words were inspiring.

 

But while he was speaking I saw all a powerful spirit of violence coming out of his spirit feeding into the spirits of those that were hearing him. That spirit of violence was directed at anybody who opposed what he was saying. Those who heard his words and received it had the spirit of violence being implanted inside of them. It was a rage like I have not seen before.

 

It was the rage that would be unleashed against those who oppose and stand in the way of Barack Obama's agenda. We are already seeing the beginnings of this spirit manifested here in America. The vicious attacks against Sarah Palin have been unlike anything we have ever seen before. The sheer hate for this woman from people who knew nothing about her, and who claim to stand up and protect the little people, and women, has been shocking.

 

We now see it with Joe the plumber. These people who are under the influence of this demon spirit of rage desire to completely destroy this man because he dared to question Barack Obama. In fact it wasn't just the question; it was because Barack Obama revealed his true agenda that Joe the plumber became a threat. So the supporters of Barack Obama who had been fed and affected by the spirit of violence went into full swing to destroy a fellow citizen; the very kind of person that Barack Obama has been speaking about in his eloquent speeches, saying how he is the only candidate fighting for them.

 

I want to put this deep in your spirit. I am speaking as a prophet. The words I'm about to tell you are "thus saith the Lord". If Barack Obama is elected, the attacks against free speech, against those who believe differently than he does, and the systematic use of the government and laws to silence the voice of fundamental Christians will be unlike anything ever seen in this nation before.

 

I have talked to many Christians, including pastors, not only here in the United States but around the world, who strongly support Barack Obama. Many of them are angry with the Republicans, and understandably so. Others are inspired by the thought of electing America's first African American president, while others believe Barack Obama to be a Christian who is very concerned with the poor and needy. I am not going to address any of the many concerns about Barack Obama and his form of Christianity. I am only speaking the words of thus saith the Lord, and you have to decide what you're going to do with it.

 

But I want to remind you, every word God has spoken to me over the last eight years and every word which I have prophesied about the American government and the elections has come to pass.

 

God does not give this prophecy to scare us, but to prepare us.

 

God said that the 2008 election is in the hands of the Christians. Just like when God spoke to Jonah about the judgment coming to Nineveh, when the Ninevites repented God withheld judgment; the same can happen in this election. Even though God spoke that America would elect its most ungodly president, He has given us the ability to stay this judgment.

 

Now you may be asking, "Are you saying that Barack Obama, if elected, would be America's most ungodly president ever?" Yes!

 

Now I'm not telling you who to vote for. Some people want an ungodly president. That's their choice. I have watched throughout the world, Christians support political leaders who are blatantly ungodly. So again, this is the people's choice.

 

I believe if the Christians will pray, repent, and hear the voice of God, a miracle can happen on Election Day. This nation lies in the hands of the Christians. Will we humble ourselves before God and pray for His kingdom to come and His will to be done? Or will we allow our emotions, our

feelings, our angers, our greed, our race, the opinions of the media, our fears, to dictate to us and affect who we vote for? If you allow these things to affect you, whether you vote for Republican or Democrat, you are not being led by the Spirit.

 

We must spend time in deep intercessory prayer and cry out for God's mercy upon America. For all our friends who are not in the United States, if Christianity comes under the assaults that it would under a government controlled by Barack Obama and the Liberal Democrats, it will have horrible negative effects on the Gospel throughout the world.

 

All truth is parallel. People say when America catches a cold, the world suffers a flu. This present financial crisis is proof of that. When America is moral and bows its knee to God, it has incredible positive spiritual impact around the world. However, we have seen over the last several decades, when America becomes more immoral that too affects the world.

 

We need all the Christians around the world to pray for revival to come to America, and for God to have mercy and spare us from this judgment.

 

Finally, a brief word about the financial crisis. This is not the end time financial crisis. It is very serious, and it is shaking the foundations of the world's economic system. But we will come out of this, and there will be a time again of incredible wealth creation. However, the cracks in the financial system will not be healed. The door has been opened and the way is being made for a one world government system to overtake the world's economics.

 

The world will falsely look at this situation and say that when the governments individually, and with some unified coordination, jumped in to rescue the world, that it prevented a worldwide depression. In the future, when the true end time financial collapse takes place, it will be very easy for the nations of the world and the peoples of those nations to allow a new worldwide governing body to come to the rescue. Understand that everything that is happening has a significant spiritual purpose.

 

So don't panic by what you see happening today, but take this as a spiritual warning from God. Prepare yourself. Get out of debt. Hear the voice of the Holy Spirit in regards to how you handle money. Let God position you to handle the future complete economic collapse and the overtaking of the world's economic system.

 

Please pray for America. May God have mercy on us all.

 

Your friend,

Steve Foss

 

 

 

Steve Foss Ministries

P.O. Box 1592

Keller, TX 76244

817-898-0440

www.stevefoss.com

[fordxer]

Seems like all the christian leaders are anti-democratic and it usually comes down to abortion rights. As a christian myself, I really can't answer your question. What I mean is I have no clue. I know scripture says to obey government but look at the politicians these days. Can I put my trust in them? No. The world has been overcome with evil and greed just as God said it would. Obama is my vote, but with alot of uncertainty. God Bless .

 

WHO WOULD JESUS VOTE FOR ?

 

1. Jesus would not vote according to his 'pocketbook.' 1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

 

2. Jesus is Pro Life. Jeremiah 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy...Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

 

3. Jesus is not tolerant of the homosexual lifestyle. Romans 1:27-28 And in the same way the men gave up the natural use of the woman and were burning in their desire for one another, men doing shame with men, and getting in their bodies the right reward of their evil-doing. And because they had not the mind to keep God in their knowledge, God gave them up to an evil mind, to do those things which are not right...

 

4. Jesus would not vote for anyone who has interests in other religions besides Christianity. John 14:6 Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life.No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

5. Jesus is against welfare (the church should provide for people's needs). 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

 

6. Jesus is pro Israel . Nehemiah 13:2 Because they did not give the children of Israel bread and water when they came to them, but got Balaam to put a curse on them: though the curse was turned into a blessing by our God. Genesis 12:2-3 I will make of you a great nation. I will bless you and make your name great. You will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you. All of the families of the earth will be blessed in you.

 

7. Jesus knows who really controls the economy. Matthew 6:31-34 So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear? For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

8. Jesus is not worried about social security or the stock market. Matthew 6:19-20 Do not store up for yourselves

 

treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy,and where thieves do not break in and steal.

 

It all comes down to this. We need God in America again. Our economy, our children, our marriages, etc. need healing.

 

While neither candidate looks to be a strong Christian candidate - as a nation which one will lead us closer to God and not farther away? 2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

 

As Christians, who we vote for does matter to God! Romans 14:11-12 As surely as I live,' says the Lord, every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God. ' So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

 

 

 

I'm a Christian and I approve of this message...

[the_spaniard]

WOW. Just wow. :huh:

 

Can I book this guy Steve Foss for birthday parties? He's quite a hoot.

 

I'll take mine ungodly. Thank God.

Edited November 2, 2008 by the_spaniard

[Versa-Tech]

Great.

 

The two things that will get people more pissed than anything.

 

The two things momma told us it was not polite to bring up.

 

Religion and politics.

 

Now we figure it's good to combine both powderkegs in one thread.

 

On a forum about Ford Motor Company.

 

WTF

And SEX! Religion, Politics, and Sex. On that note- if I like to do it with the lights on, who should I vote for? With the female vote so popular, I think swallowers need guidance from the good book as well.

[Trimdingman]

It is? He is?

 

 

[socialism is religion and Obama is a socialist]

 

Religion is a left wing authoritarian organization. Luckily, it has no legal power over us, just peer pressure and mind control. If it were our government, it would be as bad as any dictatorship. In the past, when it did have that kind of power, it had people tortured and murdered for the "crime" of not believing.

 

Obama talks about "sharing the wealth". That is socialism. You are expected to have faith that it is the correct course. It isn't, as has been proven over and over. If you believe in him, it is just like religion and blind faith in something that will not work. You believe it will work because he has you hypnotized.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Trimdingman

[theripper]

what a crock of shit that get vomited out here.

 

let's stop voting in presidents on social agendas. let's elect a president that will guide the country through domestic issues as well as foreign policy, not whether or not he approves abortion or guns or gays or anything ridiculous like.

[RangerM]

what a crock of shit that get vomited out here.

 

let's stop voting in presidents on social agendas. let's elect a president that will guide the country through domestic issues as well as foreign policy, not whether or not he approves abortion or guns or gays or anything ridiculous like.

 

Ripper you must understand that many persons vote based on social agendas, based on their view that others' agendas (that they find morally reprehensible) are being imposed on them.

 

We all have our personal bias, and to ask us to rise above those bias' is an exercise in, "You first".

 

In both cases, right AND left, this results from the growth of the Federal Government as an instrument of social change.

 

Take away any/all Federal Government programs designed to provide "social justice", and send it back to the States, and you will likely get what you advocate.

 

Somehow, I think given your tagline "Conservatism is a disease", your motivation is called into question, and your opinion isn't going to carry much weight with the Conservatives you hope to influence.

Edited November 2, 2008 by RangerM

[Dale143]

The Obama time line from birth to present.

http://www.colony14.net/id41.html

[Dale143]

what a crock of shit that get vomited out here.

 

let's stop voting in presidents on social agendas. let's elect a president that will guide the country through domestic issues as well as foreign policy, not whether or not he approves abortion or guns or gays or anything ridiculous like.

 

I made this topic for the Christian view.The moral issues are as important to us as the domestic issues and foreign policy.Carry on my fellow Christians.

[RaZor]

Somehow I knew that someone would venture into doing what is the normal path for many religious people – which is to attempt to use selected Biblical verses to justify their position – and sadly most of the time, to expose their lack of understanding of the Bible. If every part of the Bible is the Word of God and divinely inspired, then it would seem that people claiming to be Bible-believing Christians should give equal attention to it all. Many Christian fundamentalists are very eclectic in their appeal to the Bible, fastening on those passages which particularly interest them. In other words, quite unconsciously, they are looking at the Bible through the tint of their own glasses, and these effectively eliminate from sight what they do not want to see.

 

Oftentimes literalists are literal only when and where it suits them to be so. They are usually literalists when it concerns the second coming of Christ, Pro-life stances, homosexuality, the resurrection of Jesus as an historical event, the existence of eternal punishment in hell.

 

To fordxer’s point #1 above, I would add that there is even a rather large movement, especially in this country, today of what is called ‘prosperity Christianity’. But when Jesus says, ‘it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God’ (Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25 for instance), they go to great lengths to interpret this in such a way that they do not themselves have to "sell all that they have and give to the poor" -- by citing other passages in the Bible, and trying to forget that is exactly what Jesus directed a rich young ruler who wanted to follow him to do.

2. Jesus is Pro Life. Jeremiah 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy...Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, suffer the little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Here we have the perfect example of pulling out just one verse (Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy)– and using it to try and make their point (Jeremiah 1:5).

 

This is an attempt to twist the meaning of the Bible by never quoting the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably. First of all, if you read the rest of the verses (Jeremiah 1:4-10), this is a special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms.

 

But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not all God's divine prophets, therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives.

 

Using Mathew 19:14 as a pro-life argument shows a lack of understanding of its meaning but it does raise the concern for little children . . . so what about polluters for profit, and the politicians who work for them? When a politician creates or enables an environmental injury that causes unnecessary miscarriages, stillbirths, and live births -- isn't that politician an abortionist on an even greater scale (than even those abortion clinics etc)? What about social conservative politicians (and those that support them) who want to gut every social service program (yes, you can add universal health care in here too) that provide low-cost or free prenatal care and medical or nutritional support to expectant females? Doesn't the consequences of their acts -- make them abortionists or those that would prevent bringing the children to Christ?

 

It also begs the question (especially when one considers that over a thousand times the Bible states that we must be good stewards of earth – that which God has created), “How can one be a Christian and NOT be an environmentalist?” And yet, a sizable portion of those who call themselves Christians – are not environmentalists. In this country we have one of the highest mortality rates of any industrialized nation, and yet there are those (many so-called Christians) that argue against universal health care. Sounds like they have their priorities mixed up to me. Hmmm, I wonder if Jesus would notice that come judgment day?

 

5. Jesus is against welfare (the church should provide for people's needs). 2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

This is a realm where fundamentalists tread in dangerous waters it seems to me the most – trying to justify their selfish stance against social programs (probably best described by ‘everyone is on their own mentality’). You can pull a verse here or there in an attempt to justify this self-absorbed theology against social programs that seek to help the weak (or left behind) as mandated (our capitalism works best if 4% are unemployed) by our society, but if salvation is what you seek then I would suggest digesting Mathew 25:31-45 until you understand it thoroughly because it is very clear that how you treat your fellow man clearly is an indication of your Christianity and will determine how you are judged.

 

Starting with verse 31:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

 

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 

They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

How I read the above: You can go to church seven days a week, proclaim that you’re a Christian to the ends of the earth, preach your version of Christianity to everyone you meet . . . but in the end, it really all boils down to - if you treat your fellow man (especially the weak) just as you would treat Christ himself – that is what makes you a Christian (Christ-like) – not how, and how often, you worship Him – and that - is what you will be judged on.

 

In short, notice above how Jesus communicates directly (and only has a problem) with the “righteous” on judgment day. Although the Bible has the ‘right and left’ in reverse to our current political mindset/policies/trends, note that those (the sheep) that had taken care of their fellow man, automatically were blessed. Words for thought in Mathew.

[napfirst]

Somehow I knew that someone would venture into doing what is the normal path for many religious people – which is to attempt to use selected Biblical verses to justify their position – and sadly most of the time, to expose their lack of understanding of the Bible. If every part of the Bible is the Word of God and divinely inspired, then it would seem that people claiming to be Bible-believing Christians should give equal attention to it all. Many Christian fundamentalists are very eclectic in their appeal to the Bible, fastening on those passages which particularly interest them. In other words, quite unconsciously, they are looking at the Bible through the tint of their own glasses, and these effectively eliminate from sight what they do not want to see.

 

Oftentimes literalists are literal only when and where it suits them to be so. They are usually literalists when it concerns the second coming of Christ, Pro-life stances, homosexuality, the resurrection of Jesus as an historical event, the existence of eternal punishment in hell.

 

To fordxer’s point #1 above, I would add that there is even a rather large movement, especially in this country, today of what is called ‘prosperity Christianity’. But when Jesus says, ‘it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God’ (Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25 for instance), they go to great lengths to interpret this in such a way that they do not themselves have to "sell all that they have and give to the poor" -- by citing other passages in the Bible, and trying to forget that is exactly what Jesus directed a rich young ruler who wanted to follow him to do.

 

Here we have the perfect example of pulling out just one verse (Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy)– and using it to try and make their point (Jeremiah 1:5).

 

This is an attempt to twist the meaning of the Bible by never quoting the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably. First of all, if you read the rest of the verses (Jeremiah 1:4-10), this is a special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms.

 

But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not all God's divine prophets, therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives.

 

Using Mathew 19:14 as a pro-life argument shows a lack of understanding of its meaning but it does raise the concern for little children . . . so what about polluters for profit, and the politicians who work for them? When a politician creates or enables an environmental injury that causes unnecessary miscarriages, stillbirths, and live births -- isn't that politician an abortionist on an even greater scale (than even those abortion clinics etc)? What about social conservative politicians (and those that support them) who want to gut every social service program (yes, you can add universal health care in here too) that provide low-cost or free prenatal care and medical or nutritional support to expectant females? Doesn't the consequences of their acts -- make them abortionists or those that would prevent bringing the children to Christ?

 

It also begs the question (especially when one considers that over a thousand times the Bible states that we must be good stewards of earth – that which God has created), “How can one be a Christian and NOT be an environmentalist?” And yet, a sizable portion of those who call themselves Christians – are not environmentalists. In this country we have one of the highest mortality rates of any industrialized nation, and yet there are those (many so-called Christians) that argue against universal health care. Sounds like they have their priorities mixed up to me. Hmmm, I wonder if Jesus would notice that come judgment day?

 

 

This is a realm where fundamentalists tread in dangerous waters it seems to me the most – trying to justify their selfish stance against social programs (probably best described by ‘everyone is on their own mentality’). You can pull a verse here or there in an attempt to justify this self-absorbed theology against social programs that seek to help the weak (or left behind) as mandated (our capitalism works best if 4% are unemployed) by our society, but if salvation is what you seek then I would suggest digesting Mathew 25:31-45 until you understand it thoroughly because it is very clear that how you treat your fellow man clearly is an indication of your Christianity and will determine how you are judged.

 

Starting with verse 31:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

 

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 

They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

How I read the above: You can go to church seven days a week, proclaim that you’re a Christian to the ends of the earth, preach your version of Christianity to everyone you meet . . . but in the end, it really all boils down to - if you treat your fellow man (especially the weak) just as you would treat Christ himself – that is what makes you a Christian (Christ-like) – not how, and how often, you worship Him – and that - is what you will be judged on.

 

In short, notice above how Jesus communicates directly (and only has a problem) with the “righteous” on judgment day. Although the Bible has the ‘right and left’ in reverse to our current political mindset/policies/trends, note that those (the sheep) that had taken care of their fellow man, automatically were blessed. Words for thought in Mathew.

Looks like you did the same thing that you accused the Christians of.....picked some verses that you liked...what gives?

[fordxer]

Looks like you did the same thing that you accused the Christians of.....picked some verses that you liked...what gives?

Apparently RaZor doesn't like to listen to his own advice =) Maybe next time we should write the whole bible just to satisfy him!

 

And about the Jeremiah 1:4-10 verse... God made EVERYBODY for a specific purpose. Just because that passage was meant for Jeremiah, doesn't mean that it doesn't apply to everyone.

[RangerM]

-deleted for space-

 

Razor, believe it or not, I understand (and agree with) much of what you have said here, however I'm trying to understand something.

 

Are you saying we should implement ALL social welfare programs, because it's the Christian thing to do?

 

I don't deny what the Bible says with regard to caring for my fellow man, but does that mean it should be done by force or by faith?

 

If I tell God that I cared for my fellow man under threat of loss of property or freedom, would He view my contribution as one of faith or fear?

Edited November 2, 2008 by RangerM

[Dale143]

Somehow I knew that someone would venture into doing what is the normal path for many religious people – which is to attempt to use selected Biblical verses to justify their position – and sadly most of the time, to expose their lack of understanding of the Bible. If every part of the Bible is the Word of God and divinely inspired, then it would seem that people claiming to be Bible-believing Christians should give equal attention to it all. Many Christian fundamentalists are very eclectic in their appeal to the Bible, fastening on those passages which particularly interest them. In other words, quite unconsciously, they are looking at the Bible through the tint of their own glasses, and these effectively eliminate from sight what they do not want to see.

 

Oftentimes literalists are literal only when and where it suits them to be so. They are usually literalists when it concerns the second coming of Christ, Pro-life stances, homosexuality, the resurrection of Jesus as an historical event, the existence of eternal punishment in hell.

 

To fordxer’s point #1 above, I would add that there is even a rather large movement, especially in this country, today of what is called ‘prosperity Christianity’. But when Jesus says, ‘it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God’ (Matthew 19:24, Mark 10:25, Luke 18:25 for instance), they go to great lengths to interpret this in such a way that they do not themselves have to "sell all that they have and give to the poor" -- by citing other passages in the Bible, and trying to forget that is exactly what Jesus directed a rich young ruler who wanted to follow him to do.

 

Here we have the perfect example of pulling out just one verse (Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy)– and using it to try and make their point (Jeremiah 1:5).

 

This is an attempt to twist the meaning of the Bible by never quoting the entire passage, which changes the meaning considerably. First of all, if you read the rest of the verses (Jeremiah 1:4-10), this is a special event -- the birth of a prophet. God brought the prophet Jeremiah into the world for a divine purpose, and because of that, God was planning Jeremiah's life "before" he was even conceived. God was preparing him to do miraculous things, such as speak on behalf of God while still a child and setting him up as an overseer of nations and kingdoms.

 

But the anti-abortionists simply overlook this on their way to claiming that the one phrase they quote proves God sees us as individual people while still in the womb. In essence, to claim this verse applies to anyone other than Jeremiah is to claim that we are all God's divine prophets. We are not all God's divine prophets, therefore, we cannot apply these verses to our own lives.

 

Using Mathew 19:14 as a pro-life argument shows a lack of understanding of its meaning but it does raise the concern for little children . . . so what about polluters for profit, and the politicians who work for them? When a politician creates or enables an environmental injury that causes unnecessary miscarriages, stillbirths, and live births -- isn't that politician an abortionist on an even greater scale (than even those abortion clinics etc)? What about social conservative politicians (and those that support them) who want to gut every social service program (yes, you can add universal health care in here too) that provide low-cost or free prenatal care and medical or nutritional support to expectant females? Doesn't the consequences of their acts -- make them abortionists or those that would prevent bringing the children to Christ?

 

It also begs the question (especially when one considers that over a thousand times the Bible states that we must be good stewards of earth – that which God has created), “How can one be a Christian and NOT be an environmentalist?” And yet, a sizable portion of those who call themselves Christians – are not environmentalists. In this country we have one of the highest mortality rates of any industrialized nation, and yet there are those (many so-called Christians) that argue against universal health care. Sounds like they have their priorities mixed up to me. Hmmm, I wonder if Jesus would notice that come judgment day?

 

 

This is a realm where fundamentalists tread in dangerous waters it seems to me the most – trying to justify their selfish stance against social programs (probably best described by ‘everyone is on their own mentality’). You can pull a verse here or there in an attempt to justify this self-absorbed theology against social programs that seek to help the weak (or left behind) as mandated (our capitalism works best if 4% are unemployed) by our society, but if salvation is what you seek then I would suggest digesting Mathew 25:31-45 until you understand it thoroughly because it is very clear that how you treat your fellow man clearly is an indication of your Christianity and will determine how you are judged.

 

Starting with verse 31:

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

 

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

 

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 

They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

How I read the above: You can go to church seven days a week, proclaim that you’re a Christian to the ends of the earth, preach your version of Christianity to everyone you meet . . . but in the end, it really all boils down to - if you treat your fellow man (especially the weak) just as you would treat Christ himself – that is what makes you a Christian (Christ-like) – not how, and how often, you worship Him – and that - is what you will be judged on.

 

In short, notice above how Jesus communicates directly (and only has a problem) with the “righteous” on judgment day. Although the Bible has the ‘right and left’ in reverse to our current political mindset/policies/trends, note that those (the sheep) that had taken care of their fellow man, automatically were blessed. Words for thought in Mathew.

 

there was a city gate in the walls of Jerusalem known as "The Eye of the Needle". Presumably, it was very difficult for a man riding a camel to squeeze through the narrow opening. There are two accounts of this, one being where the camel had to go through on his knees, or the camel had to go through unburdened. Either way, it was difficult.

[Versa-Tech]

You guys do realize how asinine it is (in any case) to analyze a translated document word for word. If you were to analyze the original scripts (in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or whatever the language may be), it would at least be an educated analysis. Go read a book on Christian theology for Christ's sake (literally). No offense, but snatching quotes from the Bible is is just an excuse for being too lazy to actually study and contemplate the true nature of divinity.

[Ralph Greene]

You guys do realize how asinine it is (in any case) to analyze a translated document word for word. If you were to analyze the original scripts (in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or whatever the language may be), it would at least be an educated analysis. Go read a book on Christian theology for Christ's sake (literally). No offense, but snatching quotes from the Bible is is just an excuse for being too lazy to actually study and contemplate the true nature of divinity.

 

It's a lot worse than just a translated document. It's a document that, when being translated, had much of it's meanings changed to suit whomever was doing the translating. If you had the ability to go and read the original document in Hebrew or Greek, then read the standard Kings James version, you would hardly recogize them as being the same. Those folks who translated it all those times sure had their agendas. How anyone can say the current bible is the word of God sure baffles me. It's not even the word of the original writers.

 

I read the bible every once in a while, it has some nice stories. Some are true, some made up. But there is a lot of history written about, and a lot of comon sense rules for living in there. No doubt about that. But word of God....give me a break.

[Versa-Tech]

It's a lot worse than just a translated document. It's a document that, when being translated, had much of it's meanings changed to suit whomever was doing the translating. If you had the ability to go and read the original document in Hebrew or Greek, then read the standard Kings James version, you would hardly recogize them as being the same. Those folks who translated it all those times sure had their agendas. How anyone can say the current bible is the word of God sure baffles me. It's not even the word of the original writers.

 

I read the bible every once in a while, it has some nice stories. Some are true, some made up. But there is a lot of history written about, and a lot of comon sense rules for living in there. No doubt about that. But word of God....give me a break.

That's what I wrote (in a nutshell) the first time around. Then I erased it and toned it down to my previous statement so the koolaid drinkers might actually read past the first sentence. It is absolutely not the word of god. God is perfect. To say that the Bible is God's word is an insult to God.

[Ralph Greene]

I'm not a Christian, but do enjoy reading the bible occasionally, as well as many other old stories from those times. I especially like Michener's "The Source". His history of the Jews. Who knows how much of that is based on fact?

 

As I recall from my Hebrew studies many years ago, the original Jewesh text in Hebrew had Jesus mother as a young girl. Of course that didn't fit with Christian ideas of him being divine, so somewhere along the way in some translation she became a young virgin. I would hardly call this a minor change, as many say who think the current bible is the word of God. Just imagine what other things got changed as well thru the years to fit with some new teachings.

 

BTW....I never said I didn't believe in God. Or a higher power. And my views about the versions of the bible in no way reduce it's importance as a piece of literature, to be read and enjoyed. MHO

[Versa-Tech]

I'm not a Christian, but do enjoy reading the bible occasionally, as well as many other old stories from those times. I especially like Michener's "The Source". His history of the Jews. Who knows how much of that is based on fact?

 

As I recall from my Hebrew studies many years ago, the original Jewesh text in Hebrew had Jesus mother as a young girl. Of course that didn't fit with Christian ideas of him being divine, so somewhere along the way in some translation she became a young virgin. I would hardly call this a minor change, as many say who think the current bible is the word of God. Just imagine what other things got changed as well thru the years to fit with some new teachings.

 

BTW....I never said I didn't believe in God. Or a higher power. And my views about the versions of the bible in no way reduce it's importance as a piece of literature, to be read and enjoyed. MHO

Uhh, I don't know what Hebrew studies you were involved in. But the original scripts say that Mary was a virgin.

[napfirst]

I'm not a Christian, but do enjoy reading the bible occasionally, as well as many other old stories from those times. I especially like Michener's "The Source". His history of the Jews. Who knows how much of that is based on fact?

 

As I recall from my Hebrew studies many years ago, the original Jewesh text in Hebrew had Jesus mother as a young girl. Of course that didn't fit with Christian ideas of him being divine, so somewhere along the way in some translation she became a young virgin. I would hardly call this a minor change, as many say who think the current bible is the word of God. Just imagine what other things got changed as well thru the years to fit with some new teachings.

 

BTW....I never said I didn't believe in God. Or a higher power. And my views about the versions of the bible in no way reduce it's importance as a piece of literature, to be read and enjoyed. MHO

Still waiting for you to explain where the Wachovia guy misled us on barry's tax plan..

[Dale143]

That's what I wrote (in a nutshell) the first time around. Then I erased it and toned it down to my previous statement so the koolaid drinkers might actually read past the first sentence. It is absolutely not the word of god. God is perfect. To say that the Bible is God's word is an insult to God.

 

 

"Biblical inspiration is defined as the work of the Holy Spirit by which, without setting aside their personalities and literary or human faculties, God so guided the authors of Scripture as to enable them to write exactly the words which convey His truth to men, and in doing so preserved their judgements from error in the original manuscripts. The Word of God as given to us in the Bible is a product of two free agents, human and divine. Through (fallible) human authors, God manifested the infallible and errorless writings, which convey His messages. A natural question is, why God chooses to have humans write the Bible; couldn't He write the Bible Himself much like what He did in inscribing the Ten Commandments on the tablets? Won't this be an easier way in preserving the accuracy of the Bible, instead of through the hands of fallible men? Although God is sovereign and can do anything by Himself, He chooses to have humans interact in His plan. This is one of the biggest differences between Christianity and other religions; with God reaching down to man, instead of man reaching up to Him. We have seen many examples in the Bible, which God chooses to have human interaction."

[Savetheplanet]

"Biblical inspiration is defined as the work of the Holy Spirit by which, without setting aside their personalities and literary or human faculties, God so guided the authors of Scripture as to enable them to write exactly the words which convey His truth to men, and in doing so preserved their judgements from error in the original manuscripts. The Word of God as given to us in the Bible is a product of two free agents, human and divine. Through (fallible) human authors, God manifested the infallible and errorless writings, which convey His messages. A natural question is, why God chooses to have humans write the Bible; couldn't He write the Bible Himself much like what He did in inscribing the Ten Commandments on the tablets? Won't this be an easier way in preserving the accuracy of the Bible, instead of through the hands of fallible men? Although God is sovereign and can do anything by Himself, He chooses to have humans interact in His plan. This is one of the biggest differences between Christianity and other religions; with God reaching down to man, instead of man reaching up to Him. We have seen many examples in the Bible, which God chooses to have human interaction."

 

 

Bible------------(buy-bull)

[Dale143]

You guys do realize how asinine it is (in any case) to analyze a translated document word for word. If you were to analyze the original scripts (in Hebrew, Greek, Latin or whatever the language may be), it would at least be an educated analysis. Go read a book on Christian theology for Christ's sake (literally). No offense, but snatching quotes from the Bible is is just an excuse for being too lazy to actually study and contemplate the true nature of divinity.

 

Well,personally besides my sporadic bible reading,Ive had the pleasure of using my time working on the line to listen to the complete bible 9 (nine) times on my walkman a few years ago.Just in case i missed anything.And believe me i picked up something different every time.

Since then Ive supplemented my reading with many books pertaining to Christianity and religions.Some pretty controversial and others as bible guides like the Strong's concordance.I actually have accumulated a small library.

Al tho there are times when i don't touch any of them for a while,i still run down there occasionally for info.

I don't claim any one religion although i was baptized in a Baptist church,and Ive been to many different religions churches. Its been an interesting ride.

I'm no bible thumping holy roller as some would say.I'm just a believer and a sinner.

[RangerM]

Bible------------(buy-bull)

 

For a non-believer to open a thread concerning Christians/Christanity, it seems counterproductive.

 

Just out of curiosity, what compelled you to post that?

 

 

In other news....

 

Senator Barrack Obama’s relatives have congregated at Nyangoma Kogelo village and will remain together until after Tuesday’s US presidential elections.

 

They have set aside a bull to slaughter in celebration should the Illinois senator whose father was Kenyan win, according to family spokesperson Mr Malik Abongo.

 

Maybe they're taking Savetheplanet's advice.

Edited November 3, 2008 by RangerM