Stretched 2012 Taurus Interceptor?

[NickF1011]

Police and their interceptors are comparable to soldiers and their rifles. They would sacrifice accuracy and performance any day for something familiar with proven reliability. Why do you think the US DOD still hasn't adopted a bull-pup rifle?

 

Even the military is evaluating replacements for the M-16. Nothing lasts forever, except Twinkies.

[Edstock]

Ah, the Twinkie. Love the line in Ghostbusters, "that's a big Twinkie".

[LM4EVR]

by using the 117.7wb for a new CV/GM, the 120.7 for a new Continental and the 122.7 for a new Town Car the panther could live on with new body panels. Using a common cowl and front doors to save money with unique rear quarters and sail panels for the CV/GM vs the Continental/TC it would be doable. Only sell CVs and TCs for fleet purchasers, GM and Continentals for retail only, with a retail version of the TC.

 

The 114.7 wb results in narrow lower door openings and tight rear seat knee room. It could be dropped. A new body could lighten up the series. A diesel would be great for fuel economy.

 

Continuing the series with the same styling wouldn't work. A new look, styled very classically for long life, could do the trick. And bring backa tow package.

[taxman100]

The police market will fracture once Chrysler declares bankruptcy, and Ford finally gets their wish and kills off the Panther.

 

The winner will be GM, if they are still around. If not, I would think all bets are off, and agencies will consider all options - Toyota, Hyundai, etc.

 

I drove a 2008 Toyota Avalon for a week in L.A. over Thanksgiving - if that is the future of the large sedan, I'm happy to remain with the obsolete. I guess I'm just not a fan of torque steer, tinny doors, and a general crackerbox on wheels feeling that "modern" cars have.

[joihan777]

The police market will fracture once Chrysler declares bankruptcy, and Ford finally gets their wish and kills off the Panther.

 

The winner will be GM, if they are still around. If not, I would think all bets are off, and agencies will consider all options - Toyota, Hyundai, etc.

 

I drove a 2008 Toyota Avalon for a week in L.A. over Thanksgiving - if that is the future of the large sedan, I'm happy to remain with the obsolete. I guess I'm just not a fan of torque steer, tinny doors, and a general crackerbox on wheels feeling that "modern" cars have.

 

I hear ya. I once drove a fleet CV from Albequerque to San Francisco for a dealer. That thing was s-w-e-e-t on the highway, but coming from a little car at the time it took a coupla hours of getting used to.

 

People test driving new cars generally don't get 7-8 hours & 500 miles. For a whole new generation of people the CV is the same as driving a Sherman. They won't have the patience or foresight to gamble on one. (At least not a significant majority).

 

Too bad Ford can't keep one small factory dedicated to a fleet vehicle that shares Taurus/Mustang etc parts.

 

S-O-M-E-B-O-D-Y has to make the fleet vehicles!

Edited December 8, 2008 by joihan777

[Versa-Tech]

The police market will fracture once Chrysler declares bankruptcy, and Ford finally gets their wish and kills off the Panther.

 

The winner will be GM, if they are still around. If not, I would think all bets are off, and agencies will consider all options - Toyota, Hyundai, etc.

 

I drove a 2008 Toyota Avalon for a week in L.A. over Thanksgiving - if that is the future of the large sedan, I'm happy to remain with the obsolete. I guess I'm just not a fan of torque steer, tinny doors, and a general crackerbox on wheels feeling that "modern" cars have.

Wrong. Government agencies will only buy fleet vehicles produced in the US for national security reasons.

[NickF1011]

Wrong. Government agencies will only buy fleet vehicles produced in the US for national security reasons.

 

Umm...Panthers aren't produced in the US.

[joihan777]

by using the 117.7wb for a new CV/GM, the 120.7 for a new Continental and the 122.7 for a new Town Car the panther could live on with new body panels. Using a common cowl and front doors to save money with unique rear quarters and sail panels for the CV/GM vs the Continental/TC it would be doable. Only sell CVs and TCs for fleet purchasers, GM and Continentals for retail only, with a retail version of the TC.

 

The 114.7 wb results in narrow lower door openings and tight rear seat knee room. It could be dropped. A new body could lighten up the series. A diesel would be great for fuel economy.

 

Continuing the series with the same styling wouldn't work. A new look, styled very classically for long life, could do the trick. And bring backa tow package.

 

I say only two wheelbase sizes would suffice, 117 & 122. The Crown Victoria would be offered fleet only, with a Grand Marquis, Continental & the longer Town Car available retail.

 

Any new redesign would need to have improvements to driving characterisitics and reduced weight without sacrificing safety.

 

The range would max out with the EB V6's with the exception of CV police interceptors & the Town Cars which would get the NA V8s.

 

Just an idea, but maybe a good avenue for Ford.

[matthewq4b]

STAP is still making a substantial profit nothing like it was 8 or 10 years ago. But it is still making cash for Ford. And that is more than some vehicles have been doing for Ford. The Panthers will hang around till they are no longer making Ford money. Which is still several years off.

 

The panther in it's self is only as dated as it subcomponents. The basic design is still solid but the lack of sheet metal updates in almost 20 years or major component updates since before the last decade is starting to take it's toll. The cars could receive a comprehensive update for minimal costs compared to other platforms. Ford gambled in the early part of the century that sales would fall off rapidly and the vehicles could be cut with minimal fuss. And they could put all their eggs in the up and coming D3 basket. Well Ford gambled and lost. For what the Five Hindered-Taurus Sable, cost the Panthers could have had a ground up redo a couple times over and added the same number of sales that D3 sedans did and done it with a higher profit margin. The D3 CUV's were necessary either way. The Five Hundred Taurus Sable have not added any more to Fords bottom line than an Updated Panther could have and in all likely hood an updated Panther would have added more to the bottom line. It would have trumped the 300-Charger and anchored it's place as the standard unit for Leo's. And stolen a good chunk of the 250K yearly sales the LX cars enjoyed upon release. LEO's are not leaving the CV due to lack of ability but lack of updates to stay current in the market place.

 

 

The biggest issue with the D3's and Chargers for police use is a lack of hip room that is something that cannot be over come in either without major structural changes in the unit chassis. Essentially your going to end up a new vehicle when done. Yes the D3's trunk is larger but the shallow configuration compared to the Panthers deep trunk does lend it's self well to police use. Just stating numbers does not tell the whole story. The panthers truck is near a full 3 feet deep and is perfect for hauling bulky items as is common in police work. This is part of the reason lots of LEO's are looking at going to SUV's as they will have height needed in the cargo area to haul bulky items.

 

 

The D3 sedans are still needed but I feel that Ford should have spent the money developing the Five Hundred on the Panthers a comprehensive update on those vehicles would have netted better returns and they would not have needed to be looked again for 10 years minimum other than minor upgrades unlike the D3 sedans that is now looking at the second update in a 5 year period. The profits from the revamped Panthers could have then be used to develop the D3 sedans.

 

The question is now, does Ford gamble and redo the panthers to retain and possibly increase the current sales ? or abandon the segment all together ?

 

If Ford is going to remain profitable they have to quit abandoning established segments that make them money in the hopes of pulling off a hat trick in a new segment. Yes Ford needs to explore and compete in new segments but it should not be at at the expense of established and profitable ones.

 

 

A lot of LEO's will not use FWD based cruisers. Their track record has been dismal to put it mildly. And even the Charger has not exactly been setting any durability records. Remember the Panthers are basically a light truck chassis with a car body on them. And in fact they lent their basic front suspension design to the last gen of 2wd F150's. It is going to be near impossible to build a unit car with the same toughness built in as the Panthers. So the big question is can the panthers be updated to retain the 80 to 90K sales they currently have (and possibly add more) and remain viable long enough to pay the investment off and turn a profit.

St Thomas and the Panthers have been one of the few plants and platforms that has consistently made Ford money. The one advantage to the segment is the lack of needing continual updates

it is basically an update and forget about about it (other than minor tweeks) for a decade kind of segment.

 

Give the Panthers a comprehensive update and you may very well lurer back the droves of customers that abandoned them for full size suvs. Me included. Of the 8 former Panther owners I know ALL now own full size suv's, and with the exception of my self all own GMC's.

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

The question is now, does Ford gamble and redo the panthers to retain and possibly increase the current sales ? or abandon the segment all together ?

 

If they are going to see any major update at all, it's going to be in the form of GRWD. There's simply no other way to justify the expense unless it can be shared with other vehicle programs. The days of dedicated platforms at Ford are over, as they should be. The next Explorer is going back to a shared platform. Ford is even exploring platform-sharing options for the Mustang again.

Edited December 9, 2008 by NickF1011

[Versa-Tech]

Umm...Panthers aren't produced in the US.

Doh! I guess then my alternate argument is that government agencies will only buy cars they are produced by an entity based in the US :shades:

[NickF1011]

Doh! I guess then my alternate argument is that government agencies will only buy cars they are produced by an entity based in the US :shades:

 

There's some truth to that, but it also depends on the agency. The Defense and State Departments are likely to be a bit more keen on the "Buy American" mantra than say...the Department of Education or Department of Energy.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Mustangs for Police cars, l want to be a Policeman in the US.

[Versa-Tech]

Even the military is evaluating replacements for the M-16. Nothing lasts forever, except Twinkies.

You mean the XM8? It's still a solid-base stock, not a next generation bull-pup. It feels exactly like an M16. As far as function and feel go, it's the same gun. The M17S on the other hand was rejected a decade ago. It was at least formidable to the standard issue ARs of any other [developed] country in the world. Because of our bigotry, our next generation AR will be outclassed by weapons adopted over a decade ago by countries with far less military engagement and money.

[NickF1011]

You mean the XM8? It's still a solid-base stock, not a next generation bull-pup. It feels exactly like an M16. As far as function and feel go, it's the same gun. The M17S on the other hand was rejected a decade ago. It was at least formidable to the standard issue ARs of any other [developed] country in the world. Because of our bigotry, our next generation AR will be outclassed by weapons adopted over a decade ago by countries with far less military engagement and money.

 

Interesting. You only further support my comparison though. The M16 is becoming outclassed by more modern weapons. The same has happened to the Panthers and will only continue to get worse.

[Versa-Tech]

Interesting. You only further support my comparison though. The M16 is becoming outclassed by more modern weapons. The same has happened to the Panthers and will only continue to get worse.

I see your point. But the XM8 is already outclassed. Imagine if ford developed an entirely new platform to replace the panther that couldn't compete with cars [in it's class] made ten years ago.

[NickF1011]

I see your point. But the XM8 is already outclassed. Imagine if ford developed an entirely new platform to replace the panther that couldn't compete with cars [in it's class] made ten years ago.

 

The XM8 is a bad example. A more appropriate example of the type of change Ford needs would be the F-22 replacing the F-16.

[Versa-Tech]

The XM8 is a bad example. A more appropriate example of the type of change Ford needs would be the F-22 replacing the F-16.

F-22 was designed to replace the F-15. The F-35 is replacing the F-16, F-18, and AV-8B

 

Sorry, I'm an ass at heart. I can't help it.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Versa-Tech

[NickF1011]

F-22 was designed to replace the F-15. The F-35 is replacing the F-16, F-18, and AV-8B

 

Sorry, I'm an ass at heart. I can't help it.

 

You know, I was actually going to edit that too, because I knew someone would be anal about it. :lol:

[silvrsvt]

I see your point. But the XM8 is already outclassed. Imagine if ford developed an entirely new platform to replace the panther that couldn't compete with cars [in it's class] made ten years ago.

 

How the hell is the XM8 outclassed? The firearms industry doesn't move quickly like other industries..

 

Its a far better rifle then the M16, and if the "bullpup" design is such a winner..ask the Brits about how horrible the SA80 is

[Versa-Tech]

How the hell is the XM8 outclassed? The firearms industry doesn't move quickly like other industries..

 

Its a far better rifle then the M16, and if the "bullpup" design is such a winner..ask the Brits about how horrible the SA80 is

You sir, are living in the 20th century. The new variants of the SA-80 put the XM8 to shame. Furthermore, it is the most accurate bull-pup design in the world. The reliability issues are ancient history at this point. Many mercenaries across the world use it exclusively. Edited December 11, 2008 by Versa-Tech

[jlsaylor]

How the hell is the XM8 outclassed? The firearms industry doesn't move quickly like other industries..

 

Its a far better rifle then the M16, and if the "bullpup" design is such a winner..ask the Brits about how horrible the SA80 is

 

I suppose 'better' is all in the eye of the beholder. I know two US Marines, both of whom are special operators, neither of which feels they have yet seen a replacement for the M16/M4 platform which is actually a superior alternative. Yes, the black rifle has it's disadvantages, but for the trained warrior these are really minor sticking points at best. As an avid shooter myself, I would tend to agree with their opinion....the M16/M4 is a rifleman's rifle (or carbine) of the highest order.

 

That said, both they and I agree with you on the bullpup concept. Great on paper....in the real world.... not so good. As for the SA80, I can tell you that as recently as four or five years ago Marines serving in theatres with friendly forces employing the SA80 were still being told to watch their M4's carefully since it was not uncommon for their M4's to, ahem, disappear....and with alarming regularity. Take that as you will.

Edited December 11, 2008 by jlsaylor

[silvrsvt]

You sir, are living in the 20th century. The new variants of the SA-80 put the XM8 to shame. Furthermore, it is the most accurate bull-pup design in the world. The reliability issues are ancient history at this point. Many mercenaries across the world use it exclusively.

 

Hahaha!

 

How does SA80 to shame if the XM8 has never been fielded? I guess you never heard of the G36 rifle which the XM8 is based on. I can give less then two shits its the most accurate Bullpup design in the world...who cares? It goes back to the training of the soilder to hit targets not because its a bullpup vs a regular rifle design.

 

http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005/03/wh...y-bad-idea.html

[stpatrick90]

My question is why do we need police cars that are so big? I mean it seems that just about the rest of the world can get by using smaller cars (i.e. England uses Astras). Obviously we would still need larger vehicles for some tasks, but for all other purposes I think the US could get by doing what much of the rest of the world has been doing for years now. And to anyone thinking the Taurus is too small for police duty is not paying attention to the world because many police fleets have embraced Impalas for duty.

[NickF1011]

My question is why do we need police cars that are so big? I mean it seems that just about the rest of the world can get by using smaller cars (i.e. England uses Astras). Obviously we would still need larger vehicles for some tasks, but for all other purposes I think the US could get by doing what much of the rest of the world has been doing for years now. And to anyone thinking the Taurus is too small for police duty is not paying attention to the world because many police fleets have embraced Impalas for duty.

 

There's one big reason why the US has larger police vehicles: We have larger roads. With more wide open spaces and more high speed pursuits, the police want vehicles that are 1. atable at high speeds, 2. safe in the event of accidents, 3. durable enough to take a beating, 4. large enough to throw the baddies in the back when they catch em. Most cars sold here simply don't meet those criteria.