Ford halts plans for rwd cars - Automotive News:

[NickF1011]

Do you have a link for me to read? I don't doubt you, I just want to research it myself. The last I read was that the Camry Solara was gone, but Toyota actually felt the need to comment on the fact that both the Avalon and the Lexus SC weren't going anywhere due to the persistent rumors about the 2 vehicles.

 

The Avalon I could see being far more important than the Lexus SC. When the heck is that thing getting a redesign anyway? I guess the 12 of them they sell a month doesn't justify a makeover yet.

[OHV 16V]

The last I read, the SC was due for an entirely new platform in 2012. However, supposedly, Toyota has recently cancelled that due to the current economic conditions. But, like I said, they did stress that the car isn't going anywhere.

 

So, I guess they're just gonna let it sit and fester? :shrug:

 

Maybe it's a matter of seeing if conditions improve and then flipping a new version of the car to whatever their latest RWD platform is at the time? :shrug:

Edited February 12, 2009 by OHV 16V

[WC-MAN]

Avalon needs to die, because it attracts OLD people. Of course so does Camry, Solara, and the entire Scion lineup save the tC. Toyota wanted to be seen as safe, solid, reliable cars. That's Buick y'all! That's why old folks dig 'em so much.

[donzuchowski]

Automotive News today - rear-drive platform, shared with Ford of Australia, is dead. Confirmed by Ford execs, including J. Mays. See attached article.

 

so do this mean that the next mustang after the 2010 mustang is dead? they canceled rear wheel drive, so unless ford moves mustang to fwd then its dead.

[suv_guy_19]

:blink:

[NickF1011]

so do this mean that the next mustang after the 2010 mustang is dead? they canceled rear wheel drive, so unless ford moves mustang to fwd then its dead.

 

This has nothing to do with the Mustang. It has to do with GRWD, which Mustang was going to use, sure, but it doesn't have to. The Mustang will ride on.

[akirby]

so do this mean that the next mustang after the 2010 mustang is dead? they canceled rear wheel drive, so unless ford moves mustang to fwd then its dead.

 

No, it means it won't get a new platform right now. The program isn't dead, just on hold while the money is used elsewhere (like bringing small Euro vehicles to the U.S.).

[Blueblood]

Because Hyundai has spare resources and money, and Ford doesn't. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

 

Funny, they are moving ahead with all other projects, and what some seem to fail to understand is that expensive luxury, truck, and sports cars make much more money than small cars. I don't know if it's still true today but as of a couple years ago the GT500 was Ford's most profitable vehicle, so even though they sell very few of them, they made more money for Ford than the hundreds of thousands of Focusesesesees sold.

 

Since Ford keeps selling fewer and fewer cars every year, it's simply bad business to attempt to make virtually nothing but low profit FWD cars. And this fuel economy hysteria is ridiculous, we don't need to turn everything into some FWD compromise, FWD works great on small cars, on larger, heavier vehicles, needing much more powerful engines, FWD becomes a weakness due to the necessary addition of AWD. With AWD you get more weight, and a hit on FE that you don't get with RWD. For example, if the new Taurus SHO and the ecoboost Flex were RWD, they wouldn't need the mandatory AWD. And it really dents the so-called green image the ecoboost engines are supposed to carry, it's great the ecoboost Flex gets the same mileage as the non-turbo'd, less powerful version, but if it was RWD, it would get better mileage, probably 25-26 mpg on the highway. And AWD could be an option for those living in northern regions where it snows. The RWD you get the best of both world's, no compromises needed, I've still not seen one logical arguement for making huge, heavy (thirsty), cars and SUV's off of an old Volvo chassis other than it makes the beancounters happy. We've all seen where the beancounters got Ford in the past.

 

And if Ford can't put their only remaining luxury brand on proper, modern, RWD chassis' to compete against the world, than why even try? What are Lincoln's other than re-styled Ford's? Heck the new Taurus has a better interior than the Lincoln version, and they are mechanical twins, what does the Lincoln offer for buyers to step up? You sure as hell will not win over those impotr buyers with a warmed over Ford that has sub-par brakes, horrid handling, and ill-proportioned FWD frontal overhangs. You win over those buyers that have left Lincoln and the other American brands by building cars better than the competition. If Ford isn't willing to put 110% into Lincoln it's not worth keeping around, just give em to Mercury since Lincoln took Mercury's role over. And bring Lincoln back when they can afford to build Lincoln's again.

 

And if anyone thinks the current Lincoln's can come close to competing with the top import luxury makes, I suggest you go take a ride in one before putting them down, I remember my first ride in a newer Mercedes, talk about an eye-opening experience. That was probably the first time in my life when I questioned my belief that Ford can compete with the imports on that level, I mean, that car was beyond amazing, a shame Ford gave up on their only car that came close, the LS...

[NickF1011]

Funny, they are moving ahead with all other projects, and what some seem to fail to understand is that expensive luxury, truck, and sports cars make much more money than small cars. I don't know if it's still true today but as of a couple years ago the GT500 was Ford's most profitable vehicle, so even though they sell very few of them, they made more money for Ford than the hundreds of thousands of Focusesesesees sold.

 

Since Ford keeps selling fewer and fewer cars every year, it's simply bad business to attempt to make virtually nothing but low profit FWD cars. And this fuel economy hysteria is ridiculous, we don't need to turn everything into some FWD compromise, FWD works great on small cars, on larger, heavier vehicles, needing much more powerful engines, FWD becomes a weakness due to the necessary addition of AWD. With AWD you get more weight, and a hit on FE that you don't get with RWD. For example, if the new Taurus SHO and the ecoboost Flex were RWD, they wouldn't need the mandatory AWD. And it really dents the so-called green image the ecoboost engines are supposed to carry, it's great the ecoboost Flex gets the same mileage as the non-turbo'd, less powerful version, but if it was RWD, it would get better mileage, probably 25-26 mpg on the highway. And AWD could be an option for those living in northern regions where it snows. The RWD you get the best of both world's, no compromises needed, I've still not seen one logical arguement for making huge, heavy (thirsty), cars and SUV's off of an old Volvo chassis other than it makes the beancounters happy. We've all seen where the beancounters got Ford in the past.

 

And if Ford can't put their only remaining luxury brand on proper, modern, RWD chassis' to compete against the world, than why even try? What are Lincoln's other than re-styled Ford's? Heck the new Taurus has a better interior than the Lincoln version, and they are mechanical twins, what does the Lincoln offer for buyers to step up? You sure as hell will not win over those impotr buyers with a warmed over Ford that has sub-par brakes, horrid handling, and ill-proportioned FWD frontal overhangs. You win over those buyers that have left Lincoln and the other American brands by building cars better than the competition. If Ford isn't willing to put 110% into Lincoln it's not worth keeping around, just give em to Mercury since Lincoln took Mercury's role over. And bring Lincoln back when they can afford to build Lincoln's again.

 

And if anyone thinks the current Lincoln's can come close to competing with the top import luxury makes, I suggest you go take a ride in one before putting them down, I remember my first ride in a newer Mercedes, talk about an eye-opening experience. That was probably the first time in my life when I questioned my belief that Ford can compete with the imports on that level, I mean, that car was beyond amazing, a shame Ford gave up on their only car that came close, the LS...

 

Look at G8 sales. Look at Genesis sales. They both suck.

 

Look at Lincoln sales. They gained more market share in the luxury car market in 2008 than any other brand.

 

Your argument is flawed.

 

 

Would it be nice to get a RWD platform for Lincoln? Sure. Nobody is arguing that point. Are there more important things? Yes, especially considering that Lincoln is holding its own just fine without such a platform at present.

[Blueblood]

It's not a matter of "can" and "can't". It's a matter of "will" and "won't".

 

Then they have zero business in the luxury market. If they don't want to compete then they need to pull the plug.

 

 

Based on everything we have seen out of the recent vehicles from FoMoCo, if they decided they wanted to build a RWD sedan to compete with the Genesis, it would likely blow its doors off.

 

Maybe if they didn't let the bean counters ruin it, if the LS was still around and had been through the necessary updates and all, that would have made a damn good competitor to the similarly sized cars from BMW, Mercedes, Infiniti, and Lexus.

 

Do you really think a old chassis that underpins the FWD Ford Taurus is a better luxury challenge to the imports than the LS chassis which underpins Jaguars that can go toe to toe with the best in the world?

 

 

But seeing as the Genesis is currently selling at a snail's pace, is that really a competitor worth chasing? Ford doesn't seem to think so, and I would tend to agree. The MKS is selling just fine on its own merits, lack of RWD be damned.

 

It's not just the Genesis, they need to be competing with everyone, did you really expect Hyundai's first luxury car to light up the sales charts in it's first year, which also happened to be one of the worst for new cars in decades? Nothing is selling good right now.

 

The other aspect of it is that sales numbers only tell a part of the story, if Lincoln had the same image as makes like BMW and MB, they could command a higher price. Look at who is the world's most profitable automaker, Porsche, how many do they sell compared to Toyota? Toyota may hold the sales crown, but what would you rather have in your driveway? A Camry or a Porsche?

 

 

And you sure won't find me defending the quality of service at Ford dealerships. But we were talking about Lincoln. Not Ford.

 

Yea well I've yet to see a Lincoln dealer that was much nicer than the Ford store next door, have you been in a dealer for some of the foreign lux cars? They make the Lincoln dealers look like a cheap whore.

[NickF1011]

Then they have zero business in the luxury market. If they don't want to compete then they need to pull the plug.

 

Perhaps you should tell Lexus to stop selling their ES and RX models then, as they are FWD-based. Oh wait, those are their two best-selling models. I don't think you'll find anyone who doesn't consider the RX or ES to be "luxury" vehicles. Of course, I'm sure you'll say you don't consider them luxury vehicles, just for the sake of arguing.

 

 

Yea well I've yet to see a Lincoln dealer that was much nicer than the Ford store next door, have you been in a dealer for some of the foreign lux cars? They make the Lincoln dealers look like a cheap whore.

 

Yes, I've been in dealers of all sorts of brands. Your opinion of what you think of Lincoln dealerships seems biased at best. Are they on par with Maserati and Jaguar dealers? No. Are they up to snuff with BMW, Infiniti, Lexus, and Acura dealers? Easily based on my experiences.

[Blueblood]

When Ford and others decided to build a hondota (the original Taurus), they made a smart move. BUT the minute they decided to replace their entire lineup with Japo-clones, they started going downhill. In '85, Ford looked like worldbeaters, by '95 they were totally reliant on trucks and SUV's. Ford has a good Accord competitor already. The Fusion. They would do well to offer something different.

 

That said, they appear to be going for the Chrysler of the '80's approach. One platform, 30 vehicles. First, I don't think that will float today, when Chrysler did it, the Japanese weren't competitive outside of small cars, and there was no Hyundai. Today their are too many competitors.

 

Also, I agree, I fail to see the advantage of making so many CUV's. They are dropping the Freestyle fullsize CUV because of the new Flex fullsize CUV, only to introduce an Explorer fullsize CUV. Three CUV's, small medium and large, are plenty. Also, AWD outside of the snow belt becomes a disadvantage if fuel goes up again, and CAFE won't stand for it. People need to discover these things they used to have called snow tires. They are like regular tires, but get better traction in snow. I have a set for the Villager, I bought them in 2000. If you paid today's prices for every year I've had them, two changes, your talking $324. I'd be out about $500 if I had opted for steel wheels instead of mounting them each time, still about 10%-20% of AWD.

 

At the rate things are going, I hope the Mustangers liked the 80's Daytona, its your future.

 

Just for the record, I'm almost 38, and love my Panther.

 

I once spent a good part of the winter in northern Michigan, never once did we have above freezing temps, I never did see the road, just white trails everybody drove on :o I was in a little Escort the whole time, no snow tires, no AWD, and zero experience in those kind of conditions as I'm from L.A. Yet I had no problems driving, I just used common sense, didn't speed, kept my momentum up where needed, and I was unbelievably (to me) able to plow through deep snow the entire time. So yea, I don't see the need to weigh down the whole fleet just to appease the handful of people living up north that don'tknow how to drive.

 

In some parts of Canada it is mandatory to switch over to snow tires in the winter.

[Blueblood]

Look at G8 sales. Look at Genesis sales. They both suck.

 

 

Wow, Ford pr is fast today!

 

They suck compared to what? TO WHO? Says you?

 

The sales of every car sucks right now, including Lincoln. And I don't base my opinions or my purchases on what other do, that's for lemmings. I'd much rather drive a G8 or a Genesis everyday than a MKZ or a TSX, and the joy I'd get day in and and day out, would be great, sales numbers to the consumer matters as much as the scent of my farts, you can't just throw it out thinking that is all that matters.

 

Btw, if you haven't driven a G8 yet, I'd suggest you go do so, or maybe you shouldn't, it will pop your Ford bubble, after spending most of my life trashing GM's, I found myself thinking "OMG, uh, um, uh, ummmmm, damn... mind goes blank...."

 

How do you react to to something that changes your perception like that? The only other sedan that has left me with the impression the G8 did was an AMG Benz I went for a wild ride in. I could own the only G8 in existence and I'd be happier than a pig in gourmet pig shit, which is what matters. The dude out shopping for a new BMW, MB, Lexus, or whatever doesn't care that Ford is low on cash, he doesn't care about excuses, he just wants to buy the car that he likes the best. I've tried to get all the import driving people I know to consider Fords or Lincolns for years, it's usually met with laughter or dis-belief. These people view American cars as pieces of shit, all Ford's are "Found on road dead". Their parents had an old American car that was in the shop more than it was on the road, etc. etc. So do you think if I tell them Lincoln's entire line-up is built off of Fords, with no mechanical changes, that I'll hear anything other than laughter, or silent dis-belief?

 

Me: Hey man, I hear you're thinking of replacing that beautiful 5 series, have you seen the new MKS?

Friend: MKwhat??

Me: MKS, It's the new Lincoln sedan

Friend: Lincoln??? WTF?

Me: It's pretty nice, you should check one out, maybe even a test drive

Friend: Are you high? A pos American car? Who still drives Lincoln's?

Me: Well they aren't the same cars of 20-30 years ago, their quality is right up there, and in some cases better than the imports

Friend: I don't believe that, those lazy union workers can't make anything decent

Me: It's true, no matter what you've heard in the media from anti-union southern Republicans who are bought out by foreign automakers

Friend: Well then tell me more about this MKwhat was that again?

Me: It's, well, hmmmm, ummm, it's a large sedan loaded with the latest luxury gizmo's

Friend: Ok, what about some details? What's it drive like? How much power? How does it handle?

Me: Well it's built off the D3 chassis which unperpins the Taurus, the Flex, and comes from Volvo, it's very safe, is FWD, has a V6, it's the same car as the Taurus, just with different interior and exterior styling, cough...

Friend: What?!? So it's a just a Ford with Lincoln badges and different styling? FWD? V6? What on Earth? Are you kidding me?

Me: Well uh, buy american.... or something.... wanders off....sad....

 

 

That's probably how the convo would go with most import luxury buyers, to persuade them to come back to American cars, you've got to shoot for #1, no ifs, ands, or butts.

 

I don't think you really understand how anti-Detroit people are these days.. It's gonna take a lot to change those minds. Far more than warmed over Fords.

 

Look at Lincoln sales. They gained more market share in the luxury car market in 2008 than any other brand.

 

Could that be because they were so low in the first place? It's not hard to move up when your at the bottom of the barrel.

 

 

Your argument is flawed.

 

 

No it is not, there is simply nothing you can say to make it so, I hope you're getting paid well for this pr you do for Ford.

 

It's like saying the military should revert back to making propeller powered fighters cause they could be built cheaper or some other dead end reasoning, our planes would get slaughtered in combat if we did so. Kind of like American luxury has been slaughtered by the imports, turns out they are using the latest tech jet engines with sophisticated state of the art components. If you wanna beat them, you gotta do better, not strive for mediocrity.

 

Would it be nice to get a RWD platform for Lincoln? Sure. Nobody is arguing that point.

 

Ok well then what is your point? To me it looks like Ford cares more about appeasiong people who will never buy their cars (the Sierra club), than they do their future customers.

 

 

Are there more important things? Yes, especially considering that Lincoln is holding its own just fine without such a platform at present.

 

For Lincoln? Heck no, the longer they sell Mercury's with Lincoln badges, the further they do damage to the brand as a far as I'm concerned

[akirby]

expensive luxury, truck, and sports cars make much more money than small cars.

 

Gee, Einstein, answer this: when the economy tanks and gas prices go up, what do you think more people will be buying - expensive luxury, truck and sports cars or basic transportation that gets great fuel economy?

 

Why would Ford divert funds away from things like the Fusion hybrid, Fiesta, Euro Focus, C-max, etc. and put it towards a low-volume high end platform that people don't want right now? It's simply a matter of priorities. Or did you forget that not having great small cars and relying too much on trucks and SUVs is what got Ford into this mess in the first place?

 

There is plenty of time to fix Lincoln in a couple of years - after the other stuff is taken care of. It's not a matter of if - it's just a matter of when. Look at what Ford did with the Taurus platform - they did just about everything you can possibly do as far as performance, styling and features go. No reason to think they won't do the same thing with a new GRWD platform for Lincoln.

 

Some people just don't understand the decisions that you have to make when you're running a business.

 

And BTW - Genesis and G8 sales suck in comparison with the Taurus and MKS.

Edited February 28, 2009 by akirby

[WC-MAN]

Gee, Einstein, answer this: when the economy tanks and gas prices go up, what do you think more people will be buying - expensive luxury, truck and sports cars or basic transportation that gets great fuel economy?

 

Why would Ford divert funds away from things like the Fusion hybrid, Fiesta, Euro Focus, C-max, etc. and put it towards a low-volume high end platform that people don't want right now? It's simply a matter of priorities. Or did you forget that not having great small cars and relying too much on trucks and SUVs is what got Ford into this mess in the first place?

 

You forgot to mention how our lords and masters in DC will soon outlaw anything that's not a small FWD car to keep the enviro-nazis happy.

[NickF1011]

Btw, if you haven't driven a G8 yet, I'd suggest you go do so, or maybe you shouldn't, it will pop your Ford bubble, after spending most of my life trashing GM's, I found myself thinking "OMG, uh, um, uh, ummmmm, damn... mind goes blank...."

 

I haven't driven one, but I've sat in one. The plastic-fantastic interior was enough to keep me from wanting to own one. I don't doubt the performance is fantastic though. Of course, the performance of LS1 f-bodies was fantastic too, but we know how that story ended.

 

Me: Hey man, I hear you're thinking of replacing that beautiful 5 series, have you seen the new MKS?

Friend: MKwhat??

Me: MKS, It's the new Lincoln sedan

Friend: Lincoln??? WTF?

Me: It's pretty nice, you should check one out, maybe even a test drive

Friend: Are you high? A pos American car? Who still drives Lincoln's?

Me: Well they aren't the same cars of 20-30 years ago, their quality is right up there, and in some cases better than the imports

Friend: I don't believe that, those lazy union workers can't make anything decent

Me: It's true, no matter what you've heard in the media from anti-union southern Republicans who are bought out by foreign automakers

Friend: Well then tell me more about this MKwhat was that again?

Me: It's, well, hmmmm, ummm, it's a large sedan loaded with the latest luxury gizmo's

Friend: Ok, what about some details? What's it drive like? How much power? How does it handle?

Me: Well it's built off the D3 chassis which unperpins the Taurus, the Flex, and comes from Volvo, it's very safe, is FWD, has a V6, it's the same car as the Taurus, just with different interior and exterior styling, cough...

Friend: What?!? So it's a just a Ford with Lincoln badges and different styling? FWD? V6? What on Earth? Are you kidding me?

Me: Well uh, buy american.... or something.... wanders off....sad....

 

This "friend" you describe sounds like someone who would never be buying an American car within the next 3 decades anyway. Why would you bother trying to convince him to get one? Wonder how he would have responded if you worded it as follows:

 

Me: Well, it's available with all-wheel-drive that can divert 100% of power to the rear wheels and there is an optional twin-turbo engine with 355 horsepower and a 6-speed paddle shift transmission.

 

Ok well then what is your point? To me it looks like Ford cares more about appeasiong people who will never buy their cars (the Sierra club), than they do their future customers.

 

Hmm. Ford has increased retail market share for the past 4 months. Looks like somebody is buying their cars. And seriously, do you think the Sierra Club is the only group of people who care about fuel economy? :lol:

Edited March 2, 2009 by NickF1011