Future of Crown Vic, G.Mrq, Town Car

[NickF1011]

WT???????????

 

C'mon Nick. I know you have enough atomotive knowledge to know that BOF Construction is FAR more flexible and easier to manipulate than Unit Construction.

 

There may be many reasons that the Panther is going away, but this isn't one of them.

 

Errr...yeah. That explains all of the vehicles that have been based on the Panther chassis over the past several decades. All of those sedans and station wagons and...oh wait, that's it. Could it have been adapted? Possibly. But given the age of the platform, Ford certainly isn't going to bother. Another strikes against Panther.

[NickF1011]

And I Pointed out the money spent on the SEDANS would have been better put to use in the CV GM when the D3 sedan program was initiated.

 

Let's spin this around the other way on you:

 

Would the money you want spent on Panther be better off invested in GRWD?

 

You blame D3 for the Panther not getting updates. I'm going to blame the Panther still existing for us not having GRWD.

Edited June 30, 2009 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

Full sized sales, yes. How many retail RWD cars are sold? Not fleet, but retail. Not somebody renting the car, but buying it? Putting aside BMW, Mercedes, etc., what does that leave? The Charger and 300? How are those cars helping MOPAR? There is your company. There is your dedicated RWD performance manufacturer... Going out of business.

 

 

On that line of thought how many E seires sales are not fleet? When the Transit get here what do think the percentage of Fleet sales for it are going to be? Or how about the F Seires (especially the super duty) what percentage of those sales are Fleet. Fleet percentages matter little it is about profit per vehicle as long your not dumping them in to high turn over fleet segments such as rental units that destroy

the resale value or just dumping them at a loss such as ford did with the last generation of Taurus and sable and did in 08 with the Taurus X.

 

Most fleet purchasers keep their vehicles for 100K. And any one that derides fleet sales to non rental companies has not got one shed of buisness sence.

 

 

And where did I say RWD performance I said a proper fullseize replacement that would have to be AWD.

capable. And those LX cars have basically sold more than double the number of sales of the D3 sedans. And if they had not suffered from Chryselrs horrendous quality issues sales would have been better than they were. Yup let's continue down the path of offering product that does less and is less capable then the vehicles they replace. A sure fire way to keep customers and increase sales.

 

Why do you think the D3's SEDANS have not surpased the Panthers for sales since introduction? Cause they were not as fully capable bottom line. If they had or were able to fully replace them this conversation would not be taking place and the Panthers would have been terminated.

 

 

Matthew

Edited June 30, 2009 by matthewq4b

[NickF1011]

On that line of thought how many E seires sales are not fleet?

 

And Ford has updated the E-series more recently and thoroughly than the Panthers. Tells you which one Ford is more concerned with keeping around, doesn't it?

 

Why do you think the D3's have not surpased the Panthers for sales since introduction?

 

They have, and currently do. D3 is 5 vehicles right now, not 3 -- all with ridiculously higher average transaction prices than any of the Panthers, brand for brand. To say they haven't replaced the Panthers is misleading at best. They weren't meant to "replace" them to begin with, except perhaps in the retail market, in which case, they more or less entirely have.

Edited June 30, 2009 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

Let's spin this around the other way on you:

 

Would the money you want spent on Panther be better off invested in GRWD?

 

You blame D3 for the Panther not getting updates. I'm going to blame the Panther still existing for us not having GRWD.

 

 

 

Nice try Nick but your now grabbing at straws trying to maintain footing.

 

The D3 Sedan program was started long before GRWD was put on the board for serious consideration.

 

The D3 Sedans were supposed to replace the Panthers but it was realized well in to the program that they would not be able to do that with out loosing near all the the Panther sales out right.

 

It was at that point that Ford started to look hard at a GRWD that the Ozzies had been pushing for for so long. Why do think it was in late 03 and 04 when all the GRWD rumours were flying around? The D3 Sedans were nearing completion and the resources were freed up to explore a GRWD.

 

 

We still have the Panther because of the D3 sedan program simple as that like it or not accept it or not that is the the way it is. The decision makers at Ford screwed up in regards to their full size auto offerings why is that so hard for you to accept.

Every one was saying the D3 sedans (especially Richard) would far out sell and make the panthers redundant. This same attitude prevailed at Ford as well, initially. I said in 04 the 500 was going to be a steaming pile to much flaming. And I voiced that the Taurus update was not going to fix it, and we know how that turned out.

 

If we had not gotton the D3 sedans one of 2 things would have happend the Panthers would have Cotton their planned update for 02/03 or they would have pursued a GRAD and terminated the Panther program.

 

The 2010 Taurus is going to more far more successful than the 500 derivatives but it still will not get the Panthers customer base. Ford has shed a lot of loyal customers and is trying to stop the tide.Ford had hoped that that D3 sedans would have had enough conquest sales from the Panthers and other manufacturers that the panther program could be terminated. That did not happen and is is one of the reasons the Panthers are still around.

 

 

What does the future hold for GRWD the Panthers or the D3's I have no idea .

As my brother who had been with Ford Corporate and Ford Canada Corporate for 30 years finally retired this past April.

 

Matthew

[matthewq4b]

And Ford has updated the E-series more recently and thoroughly than the Panthers. Tells you which one Ford is more concerned with keeping around, doesn't it?

 

 

 

When was the last E Seires update ?

 

And the one prevous?

 

And get the hell off the keeping panther thing around already that is not the issue I have been disscussing is it ?

 

Christ your starting to sound like a borken record.

 

 

They have, and currently do. D3 is 5 vehicles right now, not 3 -- all with ridiculously higher average transaction prices than any of the Panthers, brand for brand. To say they haven't replaced the Panthers is misleading at best. They weren't meant to "replace" them to begin with, except perhaps in the retail market, in which case, they more or less entirely have.

 

 

D3 sedans not D3 total. Post has been corected

 

And they were orginally supposed to replace the Panthers how many times do you have to be remineded of this. Ford press relased that it was common knowledge. It is also what originally initiated the whole D3 vs Panther argument.

 

Matthew

Edited June 30, 2009 by matthewq4b

[Bored of Pisteon]

This new GRWD platform better have at least some stretched length to it and I mean some roominess on the inside as well. I will not buy some car that people will classify as "full size" when it truly doesn't fit the description to begin with. Take the Nissan Maxima for example. I just heard it won some award from some fly by night publication or firm for "best full-size vehicle" FULL SIZE? MORE LIKE FULL OF SHIT!

[NickF1011]

The D3 Sedans were supposed to replace the Panthers

 

Evidence of this? Would love to see it.

 

D3 sedans not D3 total. Post has been corected

 

And therein lies the FAIL for Panther's future. D3 doesn't need to rely on SEDANS to ensure further development of all vehicles based upon it. Ugh, I can't wait until both platforms are gone and we can finally put this crap to rest. Unfortunately for the "Mafia", the Panther will be gone first. :P

Edited June 30, 2009 by NickF1011

[matthewq4b]

Evidence of this? Would love to see it.

 

 

 

Holy Christ boy how long have you been on this board ? Do you not remember the press relase from Bill Ford upon the introduction of the D3 Sedans?

 

 

And therein lies the FAIL for Panther's future. D3 doesn't need to rely on SEDANS to ensure further development of all vehicles based upon it. Ugh, I can't wait until both platforms are gone and we can finally put this crap to rest. Unfortunately for the "Mafia", the Panther will be gone first. :P

 

 

Frack me you just will not give up about insisting that the Panther has a future will ya ?

 

That platfrom is a dead end for future work or development NOW how many times I have I told you this ?. That ship sailed 5 or 6 years ago . Why can't you get that through your head already ? The only justifiable reason NOW to do any work on it would be to tie it over till a proper GRWD is avalible to keep from completly loosing those customers. Will it be a money making propsition proboly not. But it is way easier to keep exsisting customers then to get them back at a later date or try to attract new ones. And the cost of doing either is a question ONLY Ford's bean counters and marketing guru's can or could awnswer.

 

Jeeze Nick your even worse than the Panther Mafia at least they provide some foundation for there position.

 

 

And really mature you would rather see the most loyal Ford customers be gone than to try to constructively resolve the issue. Thank christ you are not running the show. Ford would be fucked.

 

Matthew

Edited June 30, 2009 by matthewq4b

[NickF1011]

Holy Christ boy how long have you been on this board ? Do you not remember the press relase from Bill Ford upon the introduction of the D3 Sedans?

 

By all means, find it for me. I don't recall any "This is replacing the Crown Victoria" talk when the Five Hundred launched. At least not from Ford directly. And even if they did, frankly, for all intents and purposes, it has by default replaced the Panthers in the retail market already anyway - a retail market that would have gotten smaller had Ford updated the Panthers originally or not.

 

The only justifiable reason NOW to do any work on it would be to tie it over till a proper GRWD is avalible to keep from complelty loosing those customers. Will it be a money making propsition proboly not. But it is way easier to keep exsisting customers then to get them back at a later date or try to attract new ones.

 

What existing customers? They all ran away in the (and their) 90's. Police fleets and taxi companies? There's a lucrative market for sure. :rolleyes:

 

This car is a horrible ambassador of the Ford name to the public as a whole anymore. That's why I want it gone already. It's a remnant of the old Ford. The old Ford that needs to be forgotten. I mean geez BOY, go back and look through the thread. I've already said I liked them once upon a time. It's the fact that it's so far past its "best if used by" date that it has become an embarrassment to the rest of the Ford lineup. Since it hasn't gotten updates and it's not going to get updates (blame D3 if you insist - whatever), it should be killed.

 

And really mature you would rather see the most loyal Ford customers be gone than to try to constructively resolve the issue. Thank christ you are not running the show. Ford would be fucked.

 

Got you quite worked up over a 15 year old taxi cab, huh? And what loyal customers would Ford be losing by cancelling it now? As you said, that ship has sailed. Those customers are already gone. Unless you are proposing that Ford should still be chasing after low-rent fleet customers?

 

If you want constructive resolution, look forward to GRWD. Arguing about what should and shouldn't have been done with Panther and/or D3 years ago isn't going to solve anything. Screaming "D3 killed my stable of cheap used Crown Victorias" isn't going to bring back your stable of cheap used Crown Victorias.

Edited June 30, 2009 by NickF1011

[Bored of Pisteon]

By all means, find it for me. I don't recall any "This is replacing the Crown Victoria" talk when the Five Hundred launched. At least not from Ford directly. And even if they did, frankly, for all intents and purposes, it has by default replaced the Panthers in the retail market already anyway - a retail market that would have gotten smaller had Ford updated the Panthers originally or not.

 

 

 

What existing customers? They all ran away in the (and their) 90's. Police fleets and taxi companies? There's a lucrative market for sure. :rolleyes:

 

This car is a horrible ambassador of the Ford name to the public as a whole anymore. That's why I want it gone already. It's a remnant of the old Ford. The old Ford that needs to be forgotten. I mean geez BOY, go back and look through the thread. I've already said I liked them once upon a time. It's the fact that it's so far past its "best if used by" date that it has become an embarrassment to the rest of the Ford lineup. Since it hasn't gotten updates and it's not going to get updates (blame D3 if you insist - whatever), it should be killed.

 

 

 

Got you quite worked up over a 15 year old taxi cab, huh? And what loyal customers would Ford be losing by cancelling it now? As you said, that ship has sailed. Those customers are already gone. Unless you are proposing that Ford should still be chasing after low-rent fleet customers?

 

If you want constructive resolution, look forward to GRWD. Arguing about what should and shouldn't have been done with Panther and/or D3 years ago isn't going to solve anything. Screaming "D3 killed my stable of cheap used Crown Victorias" isn't going to bring back your stable of cheap used Crown Victorias.

 

Cheap and used is what some of us specialize in...

 

I'll just keep buying the Panthers up like I said before. And you guys can succumb to the organ donor vehicles that are already on dealer lots... UNSOLD OF COURSE.

 

Oh, let me make a change in my signature... Yes... That's 412,000 miles now.

[NickF1011]

And you guys can succumb to the organ donor vehicles that are already on dealer lots... UNSOLD OF COURSE.

 

:rolleyes:

 

There's no need to travel this (hilariously incorrect) road again.

[Bored of Pisteon]

:rolleyes:

 

There's no need to travel this (hilariously incorrect) road again.

 

I meant to say Smart Cars! as organ donor vehicles.

[NickF1011]

I meant to say Smart Cars! as organ donor vehicles.

 

Well be more specific next time! :P

[Cocheese]

And even if they did, frankly, for all intents and purposes, it has by default replaced the Panthers in the retail market already anyway

 

I guess limiting the Panther sales to fleet only kinda helped the D3 replace the Panther by "default" then eh?

 

This car is a horrible ambassador of the Ford name to the public as a whole anymore.

 

OK, I have to disagree with this. The car is a tank. I think the problem is the way Ford has marketed, or better yet, hasn't.

 

If it was me, I'd have a commercial with a Police Interceptor CV, a long wheel base Taxi CV, and a limo Town Car sitting side by side. I'd have the announcer guy come on and say "The people who depend on having reliable, durable, safe car to get their job done, overwhelmingly choose the Crown Victoria and the Lincoln Town Car. Visit your local Ford dealership for a test drive". OK, so I suck at pitch lines. But still. Don't let the public have the opinion that the Panthers are just big gas guzzling V8's. Show them what makes them such a great car.

 

 

It's a remnant of the old Ford. The old Ford that needs to be forgotten.

 

Unfortunately, I agree with that. The sad thing is, the Panther is actually from the Ford that was before the "old Ford".

[chiefstang]

Nothing like the Panther Mafia accusing everybody else of sounding like broken records... :rolleyes:

 

Or having their head in the sand... :rolleyes:

 

Or claiming to know what the buying public wants... :rolleyes:

[Cocheese]

Nothing like the Panther Mafia accusing everybody else of sounding like broken records... :rolleyes:

 

Or having their head in the sand... :rolleyes:

 

Or claiming to know what the buying public wants... :rolleyes:

 

Or wondering why people who don't like the car keep showing up in a forum dedicated to the car and bashing it.

 

Or why they call other people the exact things they are. Hello pot.

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe the Mods can start a dedicated forum for those who want to bash the Panther because their envy has over consumed them.

[jpd80]

This new GRWD platform better have at least some stretched length to it and I mean some roominess on the inside as well. I will not buy some car that people will classify as "full size" when it truly doesn't fit the description to begin with. Take the Nissan Maxima for example. I just heard it won some award from some fly by night publication or firm for "best full-size vehicle" FULL SIZE? MORE LIKE FULL OF SHIT!

 

Is this enough stretch?

 

Edited July 1, 2009 by jpd80

[nelsonlu]

Or wondering why people who don't like the car keep showing up in a forum dedicated to the car and bashing it.

 

I like the Grand Marquis. I also liked the first generation Sable -- so much that I was determined to get one for my first car. That doesn't mean that I think it would have been a good idea for Ford to continue making the first generation Sable or that if I said that it is not a good idea that I'd be "bashing it." Moreover, an opinion that the Panther is being properly discontinued shouldn't be considered to be bashing.

 

The analogy that I'll draw is this. My mother (who drives a Grand Marquis and has had five of them, in fact) has a beautiful coral necklace, back from the days before the crisis that the coral population is facing worldwide was realized. It was legal at that time her to buy such a necklace and legal for jewelers to make them. If she wants more of them made and wants to buy more of them, I should not be considered to be "bashing" her coral necklace to point out to her that it is illegal and that the governments of the world had good reasons to ban such products. The Panther platform was a great platform and, in its time, was among the most comfortable and safest vehicles in the world, better in those regards than far more expensive imports. (My mother had several times considered switching to Mercedes-Benz; she concluded on each occasion that the Mercedes vehicles that she considered were no more comfortable than her Grand Marquis, and I agreed with her.) Those advantages have not only evaporated, but in light of the far different realities of the world economy and environment -- including oil prices and global warming, but more importantly, the resulting consumer choices -- Ford is properly ending the production of the Panther platform cars. My pointing out these realities should not be considered "bashing" any more than anyone pointing out that the Model T can no longer be realistically made in these times would be considering to be "bashing" the Model T.

 

As to why I'd show up in a forum about a platform that I agree with the ending of? As I already said, my mother drives one, and as the person who looks after her driving and her car (and increasingly, other areas of her life), I am going to be continuously interested in any news about the Panther platform, even after productions of new Grand Marquises end, at least until she decides to give that car up. (As an aside, I've informed her that any new Grand Marquises will no longer be available within two years and that, if she actually wants another Grand Marquis, she should consider changing her car within the next two years. She's so far declining that on account of the fuel efficiency and said that she wants her next car to be a substantially more efficient one, and my guess is actually that her next car, assuming that she replaces the car within the next three years, will also be a Fusion Hybrid (or Milan Hybrid).) When the Panthers eventually fade away from the scene -- and, as has been pointed out, they'll be on the road for a long, long time to come still even after they get discontinued -- I'm continue to talk about them fondly when reminiscing. Of course, I also reminisce about the Volkswagen Beetle that I spent my childhood in. That doesn't mean that I think that they should continue to be made, either.

Edited July 1, 2009 by nelsonlu

[NickF1011]

I guess limiting the Panther sales to fleet only kinda helped the D3 replace the Panther by "default" then eh?

 

That decision was happening regardless of what D3 was doing. And the Grand Marquis and Town Car are both still available retail, and still don't sell well.

 

OK, I have to disagree with this. The car is a tank. I think the problem is the way Ford has marketed, or better yet, hasn't.

 

Exactly. It's a tank. And it is perceived to have as much personality and enjoyable driving characteristics as one.

[Hemiman]

If it was me, I'd have a commercial with a Police Interceptor CV, a long wheel base Taxi CV, and a limo Town Car sitting side by side. I'd have the announcer guy come on and say "The people who depend on having reliable, durable, safe car to get their job done, overwhelmingly choose the Crown Victoria and the Lincoln Town Car. Visit your local Ford dealership for a test drive". OK, so I suck at pitch lines. But still. Don't let the public have the opinion that the Panthers are just big gas guzzling V8's. Show them what makes them such a great car.

 

Agreed,

 

I said a long time ago that the platform should be managed by Ford Truck. Engineering, marketing, sales......

 

As I also said before, there is no reason why the Panther and the D3's can't co-exist. Seems to me the Panther is to the D3, what the F250/Superduties are to the F-150.

 

There is a demand for a heavy-duty car.

[NickF1011]

There is a demand for a heavy-duty car.

 

Enough to justify its future though? The market has already shown a willingness to ditch the Panthers as soon as they were given a reasonable alternative (Charger, 300, G8, etc). If they become too much more outdated, the market will only become more willing to leave them behind for something else. Its only chance of survival is a decision from the higher-ups to approve a top-to-bottom redesign sooner rather than later.

[Hemiman]

Enough to justify its future though? The market has already shown a willingness to ditch the Panthers as soon as they were given a reasonable alternative (Charger, 300, G8, etc). If they become too much more outdated, the market will only become more willing to leave them behind for something else. Its only chance of survival is a decision from the higher-ups to approve a top-to-bottom redesign sooner rather than later.

 

 

Nick,

 

You know where I stand on this issue, we've been round and round many times. What neither one of us knows, is what the actual margins are on the Panthers. I'd like to say the platform is profitable at 40-60K units/year. Could the demand for a "heavy duty car' sustain those sales year after year??????? I think it could with steady upgrades.

 

If my source is telling the truth, then Ford seems to think the demand is there. The aluminum body structure kind of throws me as extravagant, but what better platform to refine your production with this metal before moving it to your more mainstream unitbody lines.

 

I can only hope, as I like my CV, (yes used) very much, and will buy one NEW in 2014 if the info I received manifests itself.

Edited July 1, 2009 by Hemiman

[NickF1011]

Nick,

 

You know where I stand on this issue, we've been round and round many times. What neither one of us knows, is what the actual margins are on the Panthers. I'd like to say the platform is profitable at 40-60K units/year. Could the demand for a "heavy duty car' sustain those sales year after year??????? I think it could with steady upgrades.

 

If my source is telling the truth, then Ford seems to think the demand is there. The aluminum body structure kind of throws me as extravagant, but what better platform to refine your production with this metal before moving it to your more mainstream unitbody lines.

 

I can only hope, as I like my CV, (yes used) very much, and will buy one NEW in 2014 if the info I received manifests itself.

 

While the current vehicle could very well be profitable (I have no doubt it would be) at 40-60K units a year, I don't think a redesigned model would be without it being able to spread development costs across more vehicles. The only reason it is so profitable now is the age of the platform. No way a new vehicle would be pulling in profits at a plant the size of St. Thomas at the Panther's current sales rate. And while the current vehicle is just fine for many commercial/government buyers for now, eventually it simply just won't be up to task compared to other vehicles on the market.

 

If Ford finds a way to keep a "heavy duty" type platform that can be shared with other vehicle lines (I'm thinking next-next-gen post-D3 Explorer maybe??) then I think that would be fantastic and could very well end up pleasing everyone without the need to make too many compromises. What about a possible platform that incorporates unit body construction with frame rails? Only concern with that I would have with a vehicle the size of the Panther would be weight.

[armadamaster]

This car is a horrible ambassador of the Ford name to the public as a whole anymore. That's why I want it gone already. It's a remnant of the old Ford. The old Ford that needs to be forgotten. I mean geez BOY, go back and look through the thread. I've already said I liked them once upon a time. It's the fact that it's so far past its "best if used by" date that it has become an embarrassment to the rest of the Ford lineup. Since it hasn't gotten updates and it's not going to get updates (blame D3 if you insist - whatever), it should be killed.

 

 

What an embarrassment indeed, the safest, most durable, longest lasting sedan Ford makes, how embarrassing....