theoldwizard Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Lithium can be recycled, oil can't. "Can be" With millions and millions of cell phones and PDAs being scrapped annually why is there no industry ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) "Can be" With millions and millions of cell phones and PDAs being scrapped annually why is there no industry ? http://www.toxco.com/ oops....making statements without actually checking it out first....seems to be a habit for ya wiz..... Edited March 13, 2009 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Start pricing transistors (required for regulation) that can handle that kind of power ! Fast charging would obviously require a dedicated charger, you don't just hook up a rectified 3-phase source to your batteries and walk off. The voltage and current have to be closely regulated, especially with li-ions. Making use of this kind of electrical power will definitely require a fairly expensive dedicated charge station, so probably not for your every day customer's garage. This is the kind of thing the city can start popping up in various places for on-street charging, or businesses can offer these in their parking lots as a massive marketing swipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang_sallad Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 http://www.toxco.com/ oops....making statements without actually checking it out first....seems to be a habit for ya wiz..... Actually Toxco only recycles primary lithium batteries, as in the non-rechargeable ones you use for cameras and stuff. lithium-ION are the secondary batteries, and they aren't recycled now because it's still cheaper to extract virgin lithium than to reclaim it from old batteries. This will obviously change as demand for batteries increases, and at the same time, supply of big honking automotive li-ion batteries increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) "Can be" With millions and millions of cell phones and PDAs being scrapped annually why is there no industry ? http://www.toxco.com/ oops....making statements without actually checking it out first....seems to be a habit for ya wiz..... There is an industry, you just don't hear much about it. A lot of the cell phone bateries are NiMH batteries not Lithium Ion. Some states now consider lithium Ion a hazardous waste and recycling is preferred to disposal costs. As more states come on board with hazardous waste penalties, recycling will catch on. Edited March 13, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Just a few random things 440 V 3 phase, 100 A is nothing to fool with. In a past life I have use "extension cords" made up of 2-0, 4 conductor SO cable up to 200 feet long. Very heavy. This is a dangerous level of voltage and current, even for properly trained and equipped people. Ever see an arc flash explosion? If you are not careful, you can be incinerated. Inductive coupling is nothing new, GM used it on the EV1. When you try to do it at high voltages and high current levels (hey we are talking an inductive load of 44 killowatts here) you will have some high energy electric and magnetic fields. Not something I want your average distracted self serve customer handling. Or even an average employee dealing with. It will require specific and ongoing training for the "electric pump jockey" to keep them and the customers safe. Lithium ion batteries come in different flavors. The inherent risk of catastrophic failure (random or due to physical damage) is more a function of the chemistry of the particular battery than of separator materials, etc. Charging a lithium ion battery (or any battery for that matter) is not as simple as rectifying AC to DC and "letting her rip". There are very specific time/voltage/current schedules for particular battery chemistries and configurations, especially for fast charging. For such fast charging the battery will have to be equipped with appropriate sensors so that there is communication with the charging station controller throughout the charging cycle. Exciting times ahead, I just hope the technology is implemented in a safe and effective manner so we do not end up with another "hindenberg complex" about batteries as we did with hydrogen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I haven't read the whole thread but the prospect of converting residences to anything over 220 is pretty preposterous, and terrifying. I was a generator mechanic in the army years ago and today, I enjoy calling an electrician to fix any problems that come up; a little knowledge can inspire a healthy respect/fear of electricity. I shudder to think what kind of insanity would happen from wiring a block of $80K suburban/urban homes with 400A lines might trigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) Just a few random things440 V 3 phase, 100 A is nothing to fool with. In a past life I have use "extension cords" made up of 2-0, 4 conductor SO cable up to 200 feet long. Very heavy. This is a dangerous level of voltage and current, even for properly trained and equipped people. Ever see an arc flash explosion? If you are not careful, you can be incinerated. Thank you for pointing this out. If you have been out of the business for awhile, there are new safety standards for arc prevention. Any contactor over about 10 years old must be replace with an updated model. Too many people getting burned simple shutting off a large commercial A/C unit or other equipment. Edited March 13, 2009 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I haven't read the whole thread but the prospect of converting residences to anything over 220 is pretty preposterous, and terrifying. I was a generator mechanic in the army years ago and today, I enjoy calling an electrician to fix any problems that come up; a little knowledge can inspire a healthy respect/fear of electricity. I shudder to think what kind of insanity would happen from wiring a block of $80K suburban/urban homes with 400A lines might trigger. Thank you ! Too many amateurs around here. I'm glad that a "pro" stepped in. I know enough to know that I don't know enough when it comes to high voltage/current (although 440 is pretty tame by most high voltage electricians standards) ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) Thank you for pointing this out. If you have been out of the business for awhile, there are new safety standards for arc prevention. Any contactor over about 10 years old must be replace with and updated model. Too many people getting burned simple shutting off a large commercial A/C unit or other equipment. I know about the contactor requirements. But, I have seen arc flash explosions caused by connector malfunctions, etc. Arc current interupters can protect against most of this, but the electritians and users still must be properly trained and have the proper PPE. Being at a facility shut down for an OSHA fatality investigation gives one a healthy respect for the energy involved. Do not attempt this at home - or at the refueling satation! Edited March 13, 2009 by lfeg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 http://www.toxco.com/ oops....making statements without actually checking it out first....seems to be a habit for ya wiz..... Yes Lithium batteries can and are being recycled. Often the smaller consumer Lithium batteries are not because 1. They are not toxic. 2. Currently there is no shortage of Lithium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Just a few random things440 V 3 phase, 100 A is nothing to fool with. In a past life I have use "extension cords" made up of 2-0, 4 conductor SO cable up to 200 feet long. Very heavy. This is a dangerous level of voltage and current, even for properly trained and equipped people. Ever see an arc flash explosion? If you are not careful, you can be incinerated. Inductive coupling is nothing new, GM used it on the EV1. When you try to do it at high voltages and high current levels (hey we are talking an inductive load of 44 killowatts here) you will have some high energy electric and magnetic fields. Not something I want your average distracted self serve customer handling. Or even an average employee dealing with. It will require specific and ongoing training for the "electric pump jockey" to keep them and the customers safe. Lithium ion batteries come in different flavors. The inherent risk of catastrophic failure (random or due to physical damage) is more a function of the chemistry of the particular battery than of separator materials, etc. Charging a lithium ion battery (or any battery for that matter) is not as simple as rectifying AC to DC and "letting her rip". There are very specific time/voltage/current schedules for particular battery chemistries and configurations, especially for fast charging. For such fast charging the battery will have to be equipped with appropriate sensors so that there is communication with the charging station controller throughout the charging cycle. Exciting times ahead, I just hope the technology is implemented in a safe and effective manner so we do not end up with another "hindenberg complex" about batteries as we did with hydrogen. Thanks. Your sobering, and educated post puts the discussion back into prospective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I'm actually writing a paper on lithium batteries right now. We currently know of about 15 million tons of lithium, with total estimates at about 35 million. That's enough for hundreds of millions of cars. It'll be a while before they start selling in those numbers, probably 30-50 years if I had to guess. By then we'll more than likely be onto the next best thing. Often commodities are not actively searched for. For example natural gas is a waste product of looking for oil. Silver is a waste product of mining for gold. People only look for a particular commodities when the price rises about a certain threshold. The reserve estimates are only based on what is know from existing mines. If you are looking for some valuable mineral in Bolivia you may stumble onto a very high concentration of Lithium during your analysis. If you decide that you might want to mine the Lithium and put a lot of effort into mapping the reserve, then it gets added to the world reserve of lithium. If both demand and price of lithium goes up, people will actively look for it, the reserve of lithium could go up by a massive amount. Uranium is a good example. At $20 per pound, it is a very rare metal that is only mined where it is found at very high concentration. If the price rises to $400.00 per pound then you can economically remove it from sea water and the supply is near limitless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 I haven't read the whole thread but the prospect of converting residences to anything over 220 is pretty preposterous, and terrifying. That's what comes from not reading the whole thread. Adding one of these quick charge stations at your house would be just about as stupid as adding gas pumps and an underground tank to your house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 With the way a distressingly-large segment of our population treats things, it might really boost the TV reporting biz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 That's what comes from not reading the whole thread. Adding one of these quick charge stations at your house would be just about as stupid as adding gas pumps and an underground tank to your house. Did our last little discussion cause you to forget your anti-depressants? Cheer up, old man! Pumping all that electricity to charge a consumer's car is silly, and the idea was mentioned early in the thread of doing it at home...electric cars will spend half their lives at home, it's "rock stupid" not to charge them there, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Did our last little discussion cause you to forget your anti-depressants? Cheer up, old man! Pumping all that electricity to charge a consumer's car is silly, and the idea was mentioned early in the thread of doing it at home...electric cars will spend half their lives at home, it's "rock stupid" not to charge them there, as well. That is the advantage of a plug-in Hybrid. When you run out of battery, you fill your tank up with gas. Hell, it is a hybrid, if you have to burn gas to get home, you are still getting 50 MPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Yes, it's a huge "advantage" to lug around an extra 1,200 pounds of gas/engine/transmission/emission gear so that if your battery dies you can limp to an outlet, or if the engine runs out of gas you can cruise to a fill-up more than 200 feet away. It's more like going hiking, and carrying two backpacks so that if one get's damaged in a bear attack you can still set up a tent etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 Yes, it's a huge "advantage" to lug around an extra 1,200 pounds of gas/engine/transmission/emission gear so that if your battery dies you can limp to an outlet, or if the engine runs out of gas you can cruise to a fill-up more than 200 feet away. It's more like going hiking, and carrying two backpacks so that if one get's damaged in a bear attack you can still set up a tent etc. A hybrid car does not need a V-8. Half the weight of the hybrid transmission is the electric motor. 1,200 lbs is the battery. How much would a 1.6L EB engine and half a transmission weigh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 (edited) Here's the thing, countries where 220/240 volt power is used will be able to recharge 4 times faster. Most 220/240 volt power outlets are 15 amp but a dedicated 30 amp circuit is possible giving 7,200 watts of charging power, plenty to top up the car. So maybe European 220/240 volt outlets are easier to tap off existing power transformers instead of having the more dangerous 3 phase power at home? Edited March 13, 2009 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted March 13, 2009 Share Posted March 13, 2009 A battery is the gas tank of an electric car. While it is desirable to have a gas tank that can be filled rapidly, we still have the problem of portability of energy. It is pretty hard to carry a five gallon can of electricity back to your car by the side of the road. There is no comparison between the cost of a conventional gas tank, and ANY type of battery. Recharging at home will call for improvements to the electrical grid infrastructure, all the way to your house. Consider this: a 10 gallon partial fill up puts the equivalent of 364 kilowatt hours of energy in your gas tank. This is a huge additional load on the grid. Recharging facilities will need to be located away from existing gas stations. Gasoline and electricity are a dangerous mix. There is a reason that your car has a 12 volt system (lower voltage reduces the tendency for electricity to arc). New facilities will be expensive to build. And finally, batteries are not a source of energy. Any energy we get from a battery has to be put there first. We still need gas coal nuclear wind solar etc to provide the energy in the first place. Nature has given us the ideal molecule for compact, dense, energy storage and it is the hydrocarbon (gasoline, diesel, jet fuel etc). If we can be as smart as single cell algae we can harvest CO2 from the atmosphere (or in more concentrated forms from coal fired power plant exhaust) and hydrogen from waste or sea water, and assemble our own hydrocarbon based fuels. Water (hydrogen and oxygen) and CO2 (carbon and oxygen) move through the environment in a natural cycle; we can be a part of that cycle. We inhale oxygen, and exhale CO2 the product of our bodies consumption of carbohydrates, and water. Plants take up the CO2, strip off the carbon add it to the hydrogen they strip from water, to make carbohydrates and sugars and exhale oxygen. We eat the plants, and the process repeats. When pure hydrocarbons are burned, they produce two main exhaust ingredients: Water (H2O) and CO2. If we harvest these raw materials, and reuse them, our energy needs are solved forever. It will take energy inputs to build our hydrocarbons, but we can use renewable sources like hydro, wind and solar for this purpose. These energy sources are abundant, but not predictable. This gives us a way to "store" renewable energy that would otherwise be lost. The raw materials are free, the technology exists today, but it will require government involvement because it will require that electrical utilities cooperate with energy companies. I would very much like to share this idea with anyone in the government, but it appears that I am short a million or two in campaign contributions... Lest you think this is pipe dream, google Green Freedom and learn how the Los Alamos National Laboratory has proposed the same concept but with a nuclear power component. When a boulder rolls down the hill, energy is released. When gasoline is burned (hydrogen and carbon are split apart, and combined with oxygen to form CO2 and H2O) energy is released. To push the boulder back up the hill requires the same amount of energy as was released when it rolled down the hill. To pull CO2 and H2O apart and make gasoline, takes as much energy as is released when it burns. There is no free lunch, but if the raw materials are free, then the entire cost is process cost, and technology is the master of reducing process costs. The cost of Petroleum is going to continue to rise as what is left is in increasingly difficult locations. There is an environmental cost to developing those locations. Eventually, the two lines will cross, and free raw materials will carry the day. Can you imagine what would happen to our economy if we didn't have to import ANY oil? What if the government demanded that every part of the new industry be made right here in the USA? From the very first day, the very first gallon would work in the cars we own today, be sold in the gas stations we have today, and replace a gallon of gas that we import and then burn to be lost forever. This is the moon shot for our generation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 (edited) psssssssst.... not to say anything but dumbass mhlm5 just posted this same topic we've been discussing for days, about 1.5 hours ago, in the open topic offtopic forum...... what a __________... you fill in the blank. Edited March 14, 2009 by Critic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Here's the thing, countries where 220/240 volt power is used will be able to recharge 4 times faster.Most 220/240 volt power outlets are 15 amp but a dedicated 30 amp circuit is possible giving 7,200 watts of charging power, plenty to top up the car. So maybe European 220/240 volt outlets are easier to tap off existing power transformers instead of having the more dangerous 3 phase power at home? 240 volts is standard in all American homes. They only use 240 plugs for your stove and close dryer. If I understand correctly, Europe uses 240 Volts in all outlets. This is likely a better way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 psssssssst.... not to say anything but dumbass mhlm5 just posted this same topic we've been discussing for days, about 1.5 hours ago, in the open topic offtopic forum...... what a __________... you fill in the blank. Maybe he thinks we are getting off topic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Critic Posted March 14, 2009 Share Posted March 14, 2009 Here's the thing, countries where 220/240 volt power is used will be able to recharge 4 times faster.Most 220/240 volt power outlets are 15 amp but a dedicated 30 amp circuit is possible giving 7,200 watts of charging power, plenty to top up the car. So maybe European 220/240 volt outlets are easier to tap off existing power transformers instead of having the more dangerous 3 phase power at home? Well JP.. it's cheaper to run/use 240 volts in the USA.. Hasn't one of the transplants been leasing these chargers to homeowners in their field tests in the US? Still all of this discussion on voltage's.. doesn't it seem kinda obvious that we should be using Hydrogen to power an I.C.E. or barring that.. then what about helium? And if not helium, then when, Gen. "Buck" Turgidson: Mr. President, we must not allow a hydrogen mine-shaft Lithium-Ion gap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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