Deanh Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) An irrational fear of Rogaine? :shrug:Donald is a character for sure....the king of BK Edited June 19, 2009 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) There are many sources of data on the web, Deanh. Unfortunately many are from sources that could have an agenda behind them. This is the most comprehensive information on who pays taxes that I could find from a non-partisan source (data includes Federal/State/Local Income, Payroll, Property, and just about every other tax you could think of) I extracted a couple of graphs from the paper I thought interesting (and relevant). Edited June 19, 2009 by RangerM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 There are many sources of data on the web, Deanh. Unfortunately many are from sources that could have an agenda behind them. This is the most comprehensive information on who pays taxes that I could find from a non-partisan source (data includes Federal/State/Local Income, Payroll, Property, and just about every other tax you could think of) I extracted a couple of graphs from the paper I thought interesting (and relevant). all is fine and well with pie graphs and the likes Ranger, but I do wonder how some survive I really do, and expensive health insurance and the like only add to the problem....funnily enough, i'm surprized as a business owner that Nap didn't respond to workmans comp that I mentioned...and THAt can be a CRIPPLING necessity to some....INSURANCE OF ANY SORT THAT IS BASICALLY A NECESSITY FOR SURVIVAL OR BUSINESS PURPOSES IS A LICENCE TO PRINT MONEY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted June 19, 2009 Author Share Posted June 19, 2009 ....INSURANCE OF ANY SORT THAT IS BASICALLY A NECESSITY FOR SURVIVAL OR BUSINESS PURPOSES IS A LICENCE TO PRINT MONEY! Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some states (maybe California?) have a "high risk pool" program of some sort intended for persons (such as your main squeeze) who have difficulty obtaining (or affording) traditional health insurance? Assuming her plan for riding along with that group plan doesn't work out, it may be an option. I'm not familiar with the specifics, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 (edited) Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some states (maybe California?) have a "high risk pool" program of some sort intended for persons (such as your main squeeze) who have difficulty obtaining (or affording) traditional health insurance? Assuming her plan for riding along with that group plan doesn't work out, it may be an option. I'm not familiar with the specifics, though. its pure unadulterated evil...car insurence here is ludicrous as well....but on ce agin probably subsudizes those that don't wish to "partake"...ahem! Idon't know abouit the "high risk pool", but all i know is that post operation her premiums went up, and I truley think they were hoping she would get fed up and cancel due to the exorbidant costs.... Edited June 19, 2009 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 heres a few little examples that I've personally ran into(still tangled up in...) regarding some things that nee 'fixed' in the medical/insurance crap... first problem- its a biggie: start off last January- wife had a c-section, 4th son perfectly healthy thankyou...'Medical Mutual Supermed' was our insurance at work, everything paid, no problems. Last August, wife has a heart attack at 35 years old(radiation treatment for lymphoma near the heart 9 yrs ago damaged cardiac arteries) had a double bypass...thank God everything went really well,she was back on her feeton schedule, did all the right things according to her doctors...and again, insurance took care of everything. December cardiology appt showed heart had sustained enough reduction in 'ejection fraction' that she needed a ICD put in...surgery went well, last cardiology appt in early april showed the pacer still hadnt been triggered even once- a good thing...again, no insurance issues...well to our knowledge. april 15th the company I work for went chapter 11(we're automotive supplier- droppin like flies the past year), we are still working, but barely as the court/restructuring stuff slowly trudges along... April 29th I get a letter from the hospitals legal representatives- and a bill for $91,000.00 It seems the company was 'self insured' and med mutual was just a 'provider' that handled the paperwork- and the shop had only paid thru end of november as of the 4-15 filing date...the ICD surgery didnt get paid... 1) I HAD insurance (technically just ended 6/4/09 according to med mutual) 2) premiums, cheap as they were, were payroll deduction and current 3) med mutual network discounted service price was approved by the hospital, 33,000 and some change over 5 months later we get a bill for the 'non-discounted' full amount? even though we had insurance, it was current, they agreed on the price, if they dont pay due to someone elses default, we are responsible for 300% what someone else defaulted on??? I understand medicaid pay levels 'suck' if youre a health provider, but a major carrier contract price must have a profit margin built in, or their network wouldnt be one of if not the biggest in Ohio...so how can they 'justify' a 60,000.00 markup over what they normally would accept? they do it because if they get it, they win, if they dont, they get a huge write off when they bankrupt YOU...I would imagine the same stuff can happen if the preapproval/referrral paperwork aint kosher. Problem #2: one son, now 11 1/2, had a bad start- three open hearts, two caths, all before three months old- spent 4 months in NICU- hes a 100% miracle, healthy as a horse...when we lost our insurance, I got individual policies for us all...the insurance folks only check back 10 years for preexisting stuff, our son was 11 yrs out of heart/lung treatmment, they said he could get on a standard policy again (finally- open enrollment since he was a infant as he 'capped out' lifetime limits before 2 weeks old)- getting him off open enrollment would almost offset the cost for me and the other boys on a high deductible HSA plan...nope. we had him to the ER last spring for chest pain- turned out non cardiac, most likely from he wrecked his bike handlebar hit in the chest...even though non-cardiac was confirmed, heart history/chest pain= nope. guess the insurers feel just because your kid had three open heart surgeries a little bike wreck pain didnt justify a trip to ER huh...whatever...they cant go back over ten years, but they can. they need a 'statute of limitations' type thing so they cant so easily decline someone...a pulled muscle in the chest can make you uninsurable forever the ay it is, and its not right. Problem #3: at work they told us our insurance would be terminated 5/31, and offered up some poor group policy- not company sponsored, 25k max per year payout(about 3 days in the hospital these days)...so I shopped around for 'real' insurance. could roll my wife into a HIPAA plan thru Kaiser- expensive, yeah, but history says if anyone NEEDS insurance right now its her...found a guy in Ohio, Kaczmarek insurance, great info, huge help in sorting out the BS...they took the letter I had from work with the 5/31 termination, found Kaiser could get her covered effective 6/1 as long as the 'certificate of creditable coverage' would be recieved before 6/15...they could backdate the policy as long as all the BS paperwork was done right(cert of creditable coverage says you had insurance the last 18 months without >63 day break in coverage- allows you to move into HIPAA plan without lapse in coverage). anyway after hounding Med Mutual/company for a week, I finally get the cert emailed- yea, thats all done right, now just gotta figure how to pay the 1100 a month for all these policies...next day I get email back, the wifes policy wont start till 7/1? want to know WHY? the idiots put a different date on the cert- it read coverage ended 6/4...couldnt backdate the start if coverage was there(even if coverage was for a bankrupt policy that hadnt paid anyway since november)...I was LIVID. I did NOTHING but everything I could to keep my family insured, yet got f'd by the system in every which way possible...not really, I'm sure these three are just the tip of the iceberg...read all the ins/outs, spent probably 50 hours dicking around on the phone/email/mailing, found a great help in Kaczmarek's group, they bent over backwards to help us out, found the 'cheapest' options out there(still far from cheap), yet still the wife that needed insurance more than anyone got screwed into a month lapse of coverage due to others not knowing or not caring changing a date on a piece of freaking paper...you can do 'all the right things' and still get f'd due to the way the insurers cover their butts. I know they are in business to make money, not pay bills...but the smallest of 'non events' are a iron fisted NO that can destroy a family by preventing insurance...chest pain from a bike accident= high risk for another ten years? a third party date typo costs a months coverage even on a high risk costly premium? 300% charges over 'normal' rates? this crap NEEDS REGULATED ASAP. its all 100% bullshit. Far too easy to make almost anyone uninsurable for any little technicality- even if you do the best you possibly could, someone else can drop the ball in a minor way and leave your family exposed to bankruptcy level charges if someones health fails. My opinions of what might help: 1) any insurer MUST allow ANY start date, not just first of month 2) any 'chest pain' thats PROVEN non-cardiac should be recategorized into something that cant be held against you for ten years 3A) any 'self insured' SNAFUs that had prearranged/pre-agreed upon amounts should not be open for renegotiation if the company goes bankrupt- I dont want stuck with 33k bill, but would rather that than 91K!!! 3B) better yet- average ALL rates TODAY of the say 5 primary insurers for 'customary and appropriate provider discounts', and CAP the friggin rates at that...its 'enough' for the average guy with insurance, why not everyone else...it encourages them to bankrupt folks so they get a bigger writeoff, but it hurts us all. regulate costs to industry upper standards, its more fair to everyone...we're not talking medicaid, we're talking the rates typically paid by all the major insurers. these are tiny in the grand scheme of things, but are all huge from my perspective right now...please chime in with any ideas on what might help YOU in dealing with insurance crap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 What does this chart tell you (from the Congressional Budget Office)? http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms/9-27-06tax-f4.jpg http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms/9-27-06tax-f3-rev.jpg http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms/8-9-05bud-f1.jpg Razor, lets strip away the facade. The chart you presented is not from the Congressional Budget Office. That would be a lie. That chart came from cbpp.org Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. So your source is a Washington lobby for the Democrat party. All funded by The Democracy alliance. I think folks would like to know just who that is. The Democracy Alliance is a donors collaborative established by a group of liberal political activists, labor unions and donors in the United States. Prominent members include George Soros, Peter B. Lewis, Susie Tompkins Buell, trial lawyer Guy Saperstein, trial lawyer Fred Baron, movie director Rob Reiner, Norman Lear, Drummond Pike, Rob McKay, Rutt Bridges, Patricia Stryker, Rob Glaser, Rob Johnson, Anne Bartley, Jonathan Heller, Charles Rodgers, Gail Furman, Davidi Gilo, Rachel Pritzker Hunter and the Service Employees International Union.[1][2] And who does this group back? According to Matthew Vadum, a senior editor at the conservative Capital Research Center, Democracy Alliance members gave more than $100 million to liberal nonprofit groups.[8] * Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) * America Votes * Center for Community Change * Catalist * EMILY's List * Sierra Club * USAction * Air America Radio * Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) * Media Matters for America * Center for Independent Media * People for the American Way * Center for American Progress * Economic Policy Institute * Center on Budget and Policy Priorities * Center for Progressive Leadership * New Democrat Network * Progressive Majority Is this your employer? I think these groups are every bit as toxic as their right wing counterparts, and don't get all in wad that I am Republican plant, I supported Obama. I don't support the shadow government. Conservative or Liberal it doesn't matter, we have to eliminate this kind of manipulative scum from the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 all is fine and well with pie graphs and the likes Ranger, but I do wonder how some survive I really do, and expensive health insurance and the like only add to the problem....funnily enough, i'm surprized as a business owner that Nap didn't respond to workmans comp that I mentioned...and THAt can be a CRIPPLING necessity to some....INSURANCE OF ANY SORT THAT IS BASICALLY A NECESSITY FOR SURVIVAL OR BUSINESS PURPOSES IS A LICENCE TO PRINT MONEY! I was there 10 years ago and you have to do what you have to do. For me that is where real life is. It's nice to have everything you want but it's the simple things that matter(at least for me). We live in a different world almost now. Everybody wants to pass on to there children better than they had. I think it has to end somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted June 20, 2009 Author Share Posted June 20, 2009 heres a few little examples that I've personally ran into(still tangled up in...) regarding some things that nee 'fixed' in the medical/insurance crap... first problem- its a biggie: It sounds to me that the hospital is going after whatever source of money they can think of, given that the bankruptcy your company is experiencing will likely diminish their return. The payer has strict time limits to pay once a claim has been filed. I don't know all the ins/outs, but given that you had insurance at the time the claim was filed, I fail to see how they have a (legal) case against you. You could contact the former servicer of the account regarding who to contact at the Ohio Department of Insurance, asap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford4v429 Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 (edited) You could contact the former servicer of the account regarding who to contact at the Ohio Department of Insurance, asap. the ohio dept of insurance has ZERO authority over self insureds...it falls under the department of labor, that wound to a direction I got tired of looking at...it looks like eventually the company/insurers are working a deal to cover this stuff, eventually... the part that gets me though is that legally they could bill us three times the insured agreed/defaulted amount when it wasnt our default...that is just not right and should not be legal in any event. the date typo of a third party 'requiring' a month lapse in coverage shouldnt be allowed in any event. the 'any chest pain, even PROVEN non heart related = high risk' shouldnt be allowed in any event. I'm sure theres a ton more folks out there that have been screwed over by myriad little technical problems that can jack rates into the stratosphere... I got quotes typically from 2500-4000 a month for my wife(non HIPAA)...who on earth could pay that(if they could they wouldnt need insurance anyway IMO). the system is not friendly to anyone thats unfortunate enought to have a big medical problem- I use to just think this was the kind of stuff that happened to 'other people', but found we can all become one of them other people in the blink of an eye- this stuff needs fixed...cancer knows no boundaries, birth defects can just pop up in a textbook perfect pregnancy- 'shit happens' is a brash but cold truth. we helped out last weekend at a cancer walk thing they had locally(they raised over 72,000 total) lots of folks all ages...they had started up with a survivor only lap, there was one little girl that couldnt have been over 4 yrs old...anyone with or without kids, that kind of stuff really hits ya... I was glad/suprised made it from 2am~7am nonstop...dont think I ever walked that much in my life I tellya, if you ever think youre having a bad day, take a trip to a childrens hospital (try spending 4 months at one...) our son, on top of his heart defect, was also diagnosed with a extremely rare lung disease called 'pulmonary lymphangiectasia' thats 'uniformly fatal in infancy' according to the medical books...under 100 cases confirmed all from autopsies, our son and only two others we know of were confirmed by biopsy(and lived thru it)...anyway long story short, up at rainbow in '98 they had the little tvs set up around the isolettes in PICU(cardiac kids xfer from NICU to PICU after surgery, or did back then anyway) tvs were probably as much or more for parents as the kids...anyway we did tons of research on lymphangiectasia(every waking/non-working hour) in the medical books/internet/long distance calls to doctors all over the country, found the ONLY guy in the world doing research on it at the time - a veterinarian at Ohio State...believe it or not he was a huge help, was kind enough to give some non medical info on how he treated it in canines, and it sent us down other paths/treatment options/led to other doctors for ours to talk to... but still sadly no money for human research ya know, like a million other 'little baby killer diseases' out there...couple hundred a year, whatever...not worth looking into from a profitability standpoint... yet several times a day friggin Bob Dole was on tv hawking Viagra, probably costing millions a week. that still to this day pisses me off. had the extreme displeasure of being in the ICU when three kids passed away over those months from whatever they had...but everyday there was those friggin shiny new viagra commercials. yeah, the wonders of modern technology... Insurers, medical industry could care less about 'unprofitable diseases', that take thousands of kids every year...its all about the money. if the government wants to really help the ones that most desperately need it, fund some 'unprofitable research' for med students to do their studies on...or at least better fund the vets studying things like lymphangiectasia in dogs...'not worth it'? Ive got a few pics of some poor kids that werent as lucky as ours...1~1.5 yr olds shouldnt be dying just because the disease they were unlucky enough to get wasnt profitable...sorry for ranting on again...get thinking about this stuff and it just brings up too many bad memories. Edited June 20, 2009 by ford4v429 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadtrip Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Razor, lets strip away the facade. The chart you presented is not from the Congressional Budget Office. That would be a lie. That chart came from cbpp.org Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. So your source is a Washington lobby for the Democrat party. All funded by The Democracy alliance. I think folks would like to know just who that is. And who does this group back? Is this your employer? I think these groups are every bit as toxic as their right wing counterparts, and don't get all in wad that I am Republican plant, I supported Obama. I don't support the shadow government. Conservative or Liberal it doesn't matter, we have to eliminate this kind of manipulative scum from the system. Good catch! I looked at that first table, whose heading was " Tax Cuts are Largest Contributor to Reemergence of Large Budget Deficits," and I raised an eyebrow myself. There was nary a mention of the increase in government spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimdingman Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 It is government meddling which led to all of the mix-ups and foul-ups that we are now in. It will not be solved by more government. We need to get the government out so we can begin to heal. At some point, we have to take the cure and suffer the withdrawal, not take more of the drug. Start dismantling government programs on which we have become hooked, and vow never to get hooked on any new ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmccap Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Senate bill fines people refusing health coverage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napfirst Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 "The cancer death rate in Canada is 16 percent higher than in the United States . . . If you get colon cancer in Canada you have a 42 percent chance of dying. If you get it in the U.S., you have a 31 percent chance. Why? Because the top two medicines that we use in chemotherapy to treat colon cancer are not available in Canada — not because of any health restriction, but because they're too expensive. "And the incidence of colon cancer in Canada is 25 percent higher. Why? Because there's a 4-month wait for a colonoscopy. And when you get the colonoscopy, it's not read by a [gastrointestinal specialist] but by an internist or sometimes by a nurse practitioner, and they miss about a fifth of the polyps that ultimately become cancer. "So you get a system where really healthcare is not delivered to anybody. And that's what we're headed for in the United States." Is this what we want? Link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You do realize that the Canadian population is older right? So those people that get cancer, are often more likely to die because they're getting it at an older age. Oh, and as for the drug not being available in Canada because it's too expensive, well, that's a lie. Only experimental drugs are sometimes not covered while in hospital, and even if a drug isn't covered by the provincial health plan, as long as it's Heath Canada approved (or in testing) you can pay for it yourself. http://www.cancer.ca/canada-wide/about%20u...aspx?sc_lang=en Here are some real statistics though. IT is true that Canada doesn't have a high of a survival rate as the US, but there are many factors at play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) From the LA Times, no less. Here's a way for America to cut its spiraling healthcare costs: ice floes. This idea isn't mine. It's President Obama's. Or rather, it's where we're likely to end up if the president prevails on Congress to pass the adventurous healthcare reform proposal currently being discussed, which the Congressional Budget Office estimates will cost about $1 trillion over the next 10 years. That's on top of Medicare's annual $327-billion budget, whose massive deficits, if they continue at the same rate, are predicted to bankrupt the Medicare system by the end of the next decade. In looking for a way to fund healthcare, Obama has set his eye on the oldest and sickest. You see, according to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services, about 30% of Medicare spending -- nearly $100 billion annually -- goes to care for patients during their last year of life. What if there were no "last year of life," the president seems to be asking. The Eskimos used to set their elderly and sickly adrift on the ice or otherwise abandon them during times of scarcity, and that, metaphorically speaking, is what Obama would like us all to start doing. The scarcity of resources to pay for expensive medical procedures will only increase under a plan to extend medical benefits at federal expense to the 47 million Americans who lack health insurance. So why not save billions of dollars by killing off our own unproductive oldsters and terminal patients, or -- since we aren't likely to do that outright in this, the 21st century -- why not simply ensure that they die faster by denying them costly medical care? The savings could then subsidize care for the younger and healthier. Sound too draconian? Enter the ghost of Obama's late maternal grandmother, Madelyn Dunham, who died of cancer at age 86 two days before her grandson's election to the presidency. Dunham's health issues first surfaced in a New York Times interview with the president on May 3. There, Obama questioned the appropriateness of a hip replacement that his grandmother had undergone after falling and breaking her hip shortly after being diagnosed with terminal cancer last year. The alternative to such surgery is typically excruciating pain and opiate dependency. Obama made it clear that he loved his granny and would have paid for the surgery out of his own pocket if he had to, but he said there ought to be a "conversation" over whether "sort of in the aggregate, society making those decisions to give my grandmother, or everybody else's aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they're terminally ill is a sustainable model." Obama suggested that such decisions be made not by patients or their relatives but by a "group" of "doctors, scientists, ethicists" who are not part of "normal political channels." Obama brought up his grandmother's hip replacement a second time in his June 24 town hall event on healthcare on ABC. The "question was," Obama said, "does she get hip-replacement surgery, even though she was fragile enough they were not sure how long she would last?" At that point I was thinking: If he says, "No hip replacement for you, Grams" one more time, it's going to be a drinking game. -more- That part in bold sounds suspiciously like euthanasia to me. This is "Change, we can believe in"? Edited July 6, 2009 by RangerM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
napfirst Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 You do realize that the Canadian population is older right? So those people that get cancer, are often more likely to die because they're getting it at an older age. Oh, and as for the drug not being available in Canada because it's too expensive, well, that's a lie. Only experimental drugs are sometimes not covered while in hospital, and even if a drug isn't covered by the provincial health plan, as long as it's Heath Canada approved (or in testing) you can pay for it yourself. http://www.cancer.ca/canada-wide/about%20u...aspx?sc_lang=en Here are some real statistics though. IT is true that Canada doesn't have a high of a survival rate as the US, but there are many factors at play. So my stats are a lie...but yours we can believe in...yeah right........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Since mine are from the Canadian Cancer Society, an independent research organization, yes, we can believe mine. I get tired of the constant attacks on the system in my country. We like it. We don't really care if you do or not, but we're going to defend it when it's attacked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaZor Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Razor, lets strip away the facade. The chart you presented is not from the Congressional Budget Office. That would be a lie. That chart came from cbpp.org Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. So your source is a Washington lobby for the Democrat party. All funded by The Democracy alliance. I think folks would like to know just who that is. And who does this group back? Is this your employer? I think these groups are every bit as toxic as their right wing counterparts, and don't get all in wad that I am Republican plant, I supported Obama. I don't support the shadow government. Conservative or Liberal it doesn't matter, we have to eliminate this kind of manipulative scum from the system. LOL, no I've been "retired" for many years now - even though I am not of retirement age. It is interesting that you only question a linked source if is NOT a conservative source. I don't recall you challenging a single conservative source. . . and even use one in your rebuttal: The Capital Research Center is a conservative think tank whose stated mission is to do "opposition research" exposing the funding sources behind consumer, health and environmental groups. So using your claim to question "both" sides (I think these groups are every bit as toxic as their right wing counterparts), then their analysis is also totally bogus -- and yet you use them as your basis for defining the source which clearly states that it is a compilation of CBO stats. Typical - talking 'bout shooting yourself in your own foot . . . didn't quite think that one through, did you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Since mine are from the Canadian Cancer Society, an independent research organization, yes, we can believe mine. I get tired of the constant attacks on the system in my country. We like it. We don't really care if you do or not, but we're going to defend it when it's attacked. You can believe these, too. Wait Time Alliance (Canada) - Report Card on Wait Times in Canada, June 2009 Not an attack, just the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rn4 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Since mine are from the Canadian Cancer Society, an independent research organization, yes, we can believe mine. I get tired of the constant attacks on the system in my country. We like it. We don't really care if you do or not, but we're going to defend it when it's attacked. Except for Trim, he doesn't like anything. I'm from the U.S. and I have alot of friends who live in Ear Falls, Ontario and they all love your health care system. Now I know this is in the middle of nowhere but they are happy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Yes, you can believe those, because things aren't perfect here and no one ever said that they were. They also aren't a problem the vast majority of the time. I would also point out that I believe that some of those numbers conflict with the Canadian Institute for Health Information's numbers, and that the organization that you linked to probably has an agenda for including more private for profit care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron W. Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 That part in bold sounds suspiciously like euthanasia to me. The more I thought about this the more I think people with a terminal cancer or any other terminal disease should at least be offered the opportunity to be euthanized. I know I'd rather see my assets got to my children than the hospital, not to mention the possibility of unwanted/unnecessary pain and suffering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rn4 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 The more I thought about this the more I think people with a terminal cancer or any other terminal disease should at least be offered the opportunity to be euthanized. I know I'd rather see my assets got to my children than the hospital, not to mention the possibility of unwanted/unnecessary pain and suffering. You always have the choice to end it sooner, rather than later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) The more I thought about this the more I think people with a terminal cancer or any other terminal disease should at least be offered the opportunity to be euthanized. I know I'd rather see my assets got to my children than the hospital, not to mention the possibility of unwanted/unnecessary pain and suffering. I'd ask you to re-read this part.... Obama made it clear that he loved his granny and would have paid for the surgery out of his own pocket if he had to, but he said there ought to be a "conversation" over whether "sort of in the aggregate, society making those decisions to give my grandmother, or everybody else's aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they're terminally ill is a sustainable model." Obama suggested that such decisions be made not by patients or their relatives but by a "group" of "doctors, scientists, ethicists" who are not part of "normal political channels." Looks to me like that decision (in theory) would not be yours to make, regardless of your ability (or willingness) to pay. That's what he's saying when he says, "in the aggregate". And don't forget this story. PORTLAND, Ore. — Some terminally ill patients in Oregon who turned to their state for health care were denied treatment and offered doctor-assisted suicide instead, a proposal some experts have called a "chilling" corruption of medical ethics. Since the spread of his prostate cancer, 53-year-old Randy Stroup of Dexter, Ore., has been in a fight for his life. Uninsured and unable to pay for expensive chemotherapy, he applied to Oregon's state-run health plan for help. Lane Individual Practice Association (LIPA), which administers the Oregon Health Plan in Lane County, responded to Stroup's request with a letter saying the state would not cover Stroup's pricey treatment, but would pay for the cost of physician-assisted suicide. "It dropped my chin to the floor," Stroup told FOX News. "[How could they] not pay for medication that would help my life, and yet offer to pay to end my life?" The difference with the second story is we're talking of persons participating in a public program. Obama is suggesting (in aggregate) that even people who have the means shouldn't get the choice either. Edited July 6, 2009 by RangerM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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