'02 T-Bird

[retro-man]

Dear Ford Management,

 

I have been a Ford guy since I was 10 years old, riding in our old Galaxie convertible, and have owned many Fords over the years. I still bleed Ford blue, but my experience with my current T-Bird is such that I would feel like a sucker walking back into a Ford dealership for a new car. Attached is a spreadsheet listing all my repair and maintenance expenses for the car, which I purchased new in 2002. You will notice recurring problems with engine cooling, and with the climate control system. The most recent repair on the car was replacing an "auxiliary coolant pump" - a $700 repair. Last time I replaced the hydraulic fan unit - a $1400 repair. Currently the car also needs a new control head for the climate control - I believe the third time for this particular part. Since that repair is an additional $800, I am postponing until the weather turns. Hydraulic fan?? "Auxiliary coolant pump"?!?! Dr. Seuss could have designed a more rational heating and cooling system. I asked the dealer for a break on the climate control head unit, since it is the third time replacing it, and since I was charged a $4k "market adjustment" over MSRP on the car when I first bought it. They offered me a 5% discount on the part.

 

It may seem to come with an ill grace to complain about vehicle reliability at 127,000 miles, but the problems date from way back, and certain parts seem to have a 30,000 mile life expectancy. As of this date, I have spent about $8600 out of pocket on repairs - not including things that were covered under warrantee, and an additional $7k on routine maintenance. This averages out to about $175.00 / mo. in repair and maintenance costs during the time I have owned the car. It's like owning a Jaguar E-Type, only without the cachet!

 

Unfortunately, I can't help but compare this experience to our first new car purchase - a 1983 Honda Accord, which we traded in at 144,000 miles, still running like a Rolex, and having sustained only a single $200 repair - starter motor that had failed at around 30,000 miles, which had been covered under warrantee - so zero repair expenses for the Honda vs. $8,600 and counting for the T-Bird so far, with less miles. Thanks for letting me vent.

Edited August 21, 2009 by retro-man

[svtenthusiast]

I do agree you have had your fair share of problems, but your 1983 Honda isn't a fair compairison. It didn't have even close to the level of electronics your T-Bird does. Less things to break=less problems.

[fordtech1]

Dear Ford Management,

 

I have been a Ford guy since I was 10 years old, riding in our old Galaxie convertible, and have owned many Fords over the years. I still bleed Ford blue, but my experience with my current T-Bird is such that I would feel like a sucker walking back into a Ford dealership for a new car. Attached is a spreadsheet listing all my repair and maintenance expenses for the car, which I purchased new in 2002. You will notice recurring problems with engine cooling, and with the climate control system. The most recent repair on the car was replacing an "auxiliary coolant pump" - a $700 repair. Last time I replaced the hydraulic fan unit - a $1400 repair. Currently the car also needs a new control head for the climate control - I believe the third time for this particular part. Since that repair is an additional $800, I am postponing until the weather turns. Hydraulic fan?? "Auxiliary coolant pump"?!?! Dr. Seuss could have designed a more rational heating and cooling system. I asked the dealer for a break on the climate control head unit, since it is the third time replacing it, and since I was charged a $4k "market adjustment" over MSRP on the car when I first bought it. They offered me a 5% discount on the part.

 

It may seem to come with an ill grace to complain about vehicle reliability at 127,000 miles, but the problems date from way back, and certain parts seem to have a 30,000 mile life expectancy. As of this date, I have spent about $8600 out of pocket on repairs - not including things that were covered under warrantee, and an additional $7k on routine maintenance. This averages out to about $175.00 / mo. in repair and maintenance costs during the time I have owned the car. It's like owning a Jaguar E-Type, only without the cachet!

 

Unfortunately, I can't help but compare this experience to our first new car purchase - a 1983 Honda Accord, which we traded in at 144,000 miles, still running like a Rolex, and having sustained only a single $200 repair - starter motor that had failed at around 30,000 miles, which had been covered under warrantee - so zero repair expenses for the Honda vs. $8,600 and counting for the T-Bird so far, with less miles. Thanks for letting me vent.

 

I understand your concerns and I don't like to comment about anyone's work without being involved. However, after looking at your list, I believe some of your issues are due to inadequate repairs.

First of all, all those CD jams right in a row should have been covered by a 12/12 warranty if you had the radio replaced/repaired. All those engine temp issues sound like a possible inadequate diagnosis.

 

The common issues I have seen on t-bird/LS 00-02 are:

CD player

Climate control water valve and aux water pump.

Only a few climate control heads. (Very Few).

Valve cover gaskets

ignition coils

leaking injectors.

T-stat and cooling fan solenoid.

Degas bottle (coolant Bottle)

A couple of wheel bearings

Solenoid body in trans.

Ocasional a/c compressor leaking

And ofcourse on LS window regulators

 

Thats about all the things I have seen from the dew98 cars.

On a ocasion I get weird off the wall problems.

Most of these issues have been on LS.

T-birds have less issues I think because they normaly aren't driven as much and there aren't as many around. Also most of these issues come from higher mileage.

I hate you are having so many issues. But to be fair, compare a 02 Mercedes E class or a SLK/CLK convertible and see how much you would spend. Not a old POS lawnmower Honda Accord from the 80s. I had one, it was a dependable car because it was a covered lawnmower.

Edited August 21, 2009 by fordtech1

[retro-man]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I don't mean to get on here and dump on my beautiful car and the fine people at Wixom (RIP) who made her. But I am a bit frustrated about having the same thing go out multiple times, and about the ridiculous complexity of some of the systems. Why a hydraulic fan? (They switched to an electric one like everybody else uses for '03). Why an "auxiliary coolant pump"? I've never even heard of an auxiliary coolant pump on a car until this week. How about just use a damn $85.00 water pump like the one on my son's '65 Mustang that has been running without a rebuild since Lyndon Johnson was in the Whitehouse!!!???? Huh? How about that???!!! Of the 12 issues you listed, I have had 7 of them, some of them repeatedly. The rear wheel bearings went out at around 30k miles. I've never seen that happen on any car. Right now, in addition to the heater control head (approx. $800) needing to be replaced, I am getting a lot of noise from the rear differential, and the shifting is getting clunky (perhaps the "solenoid body in trans" from your list?). It just does not want to stay together. The thing is, cosmetically it looks great. I do take good care of it.

 

As for the Honda, I'm not sure that "POS" is the right characterization for a car that went 144k mi. with a single $200 repair.Compared to anything we had driven up to that time - foreign or domestic - it was incredibly refined, balanced, and smooth. It was so nice compared to what we were used to that I felt kind of hoity-toity driving it for awhile.

 

Of course, the T-Bird is a magnificent ride, and still gets compliments all the time. Not many 7 year old cars can pull that off. If only all that stuff weren't breaking all the time and costing me all that money, I would probably never get tired of it.

[fordtech1]

Thanks for the thoughtful response. I don't mean to get on here and dump on my beautiful car and the fine people at Wixom (RIP) who made her. But I am a bit frustrated about having the same thing go out multiple times, and about the ridiculous complexity of some of the systems. Why a hydraulic fan? (They switched to an electric one like everybody else uses for '03). Why an "auxiliary coolant pump"? I've never even heard of an auxiliary coolant pump on a car until this week. How about just use a damn $85.00 water pump like the one on my son's '65 Mustang that has been running without a rebuild since Lyndon Johnson was in the Whitehouse!!!???? Huh? How about that???!!! Of the 12 issues you listed, I have had 7 of them, some of them repeatedly. The rear wheel bearings went out at around 30k miles. I've never seen that happen on any car. Right now, in addition to the heater control head (approx. $800) needing to be replaced, I am getting a lot of noise from the rear differential, and the shifting is getting clunky (perhaps the "solenoid body in trans" from your list?). It just does not want to stay together. The thing is, cosmetically it looks great. I do take good care of it.

 

As for the Honda, I'm not sure that "POS" is the right characterization for a car that went 144k mi. with a single $200 repair.Compared to anything we had driven up to that time - foreign or domestic - it was incredibly refined, balanced, and smooth. It was so nice compared to what we were used to that I felt kind of hoity-toity driving it for awhile.

 

Of course, the T-Bird is a magnificent ride, and still gets compliments all the time. Not many 7 year old cars can pull that off. If only all that stuff weren't breaking all the time and costing me all that money, I would probably never get tired of it.

 

I understand your total frustration. I am still concerned as to why the same parts keep failing on your car. Eitherway, I always thought that the LS and T-bird would have been a bigger hit had the initial quality be as good as the Fusion has been. I think some of the problems stem from all that Jaguar "DNA" the car has. It is a very complex car.

When the LS came out, it was like no other Ford we had to work on before. I remember the Ford Hotline being stumped on them alot also. We didn't know how to fix them in 1999. Their was a learning curve for them in the first couple of years. They were intimidating because of the complexity. But after some time working on them, I really like the LS. I wish it was still around. To me a updated, stretched version would have been awesome.

 

If you like the T-bird, find a 05 and upgrade. The cooling fan is electric. It has 20 more HP. The ingition coils are covered under a warranty extension. Alot of issues seemed to have been ironed out. Plus the CD player is Satellite ready. Just a thought.

 

BTW you are correct, that POS Honda was really a decent car for its caliber and year. The most high tech thing it has was a optional power antenna in the a-pillar. Just really can't compare to a vehicle that has a network of computers that control every function.

[retro-man]

I understand your total frustration. I am still concerned as to why the same parts keep failing on your car. Eitherway, I always thought that the LS and T-bird would have been a bigger hit had the initial quality be as good as the Fusion has been. I think some of the problems stem from all that Jaguar "DNA" the car has. It is a very complex car.

When the LS came out, it was like no other Ford we had to work on before. I remember the Ford Hotline being stumped on them alot also. We didn't know how to fix them in 1999. Their was a learning curve for them in the first couple of years. They were intimidating because of the complexity. But after some time working on them, I really like the LS. I wish it was still around. To me a updated, stretched version would have been awesome.

 

If you like the T-bird, find a 05 and upgrade. The cooling fan is electric. It has 20 more HP. The ingition coils are covered under a warranty extension. Alot of issues seemed to have been ironed out. Plus the CD player is Satellite ready. Just a thought.

 

BTW you are correct, that POS Honda was really a decent car for its caliber and year. The most high tech thing it has was a optional power antenna in the a-pillar. Just really can't compare to a vehicle that has a network of computers that control every function.

I liked the LS too. It was a bit weak in the styling department, but the basic size and concept really appealed to me. I had a friend from Japan get one as a rental, driving between LA and Las Vegas, and he really liked it. It was a good example of neglect and abandonment. Assuming the gremlins could be tamed. Likewise, perhaps a newer T-Bird is not a bad suggestion. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge about the car. I should let this forum get back to the 490,000 mile Mustang - a much happier thought.

 

Unless someone from Ford HQ wants to chip in with a free heater control head for my upcoming repair! Just asking.

Edited August 22, 2009 by retro-man

[fordtech1]

I liked the LS too. It was a bit weak in the styling department, but the basic size and concept really appealed to me. I had a friend from Japan get one as a rental, driving between LA and Las Vegas, and he really liked it. It was a good example of neglect and abandonment. Assuming the gremlins could be tamed. Likewise, perhaps a newer T-Bird is not a bad suggestion. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge about the car. I should let this forum get back to the 490,000 mile Mustang - a much happier thought.

 

Unless someone from Ford HQ wants to chip in with a free heater control head for my upcoming repair! Just asking.

 

BTW why do you need a control head? Whats it doing?

[retro-man]

BTW why do you need a control head? Whats it doing?

It's either on full hot - cooks your face off - or full cold. It won't regulate to the set temperature. I usually don't set it on full auto: I usually set face and foot, or windshield, set the fan at low, and the temperature at 70^ or so. But it won't hit that temperature.

[fordtech1]

It's either on full hot - cooks your face off - or full cold. It won't regulate to the set temperature. I usually don't set it on full auto: I usually set face and foot, or windshield, set the fan at low, and the temperature at 70^ or so. But it won't hit that temperature.

 

Have you had a diagnosis done?

The reason I ask, is because that system does not use a tempature blend door. It uses coolant flow to adjust the tempature. You could just have either a Evap discharge temp senor failure or a possibly a incar temp sensor failure. Both are cheaper than a control head.

You can run self test on it your self.

Press Floor and off at the same time. Release and imediately press auto. Then the system will do a test and count down and the fan speed indicator will go up and down. After about 10- 20 sec it will flash a code. IE 21 95 or something like 13 15. After the code is displayed, you can press front defrost to clear codes and system will recalibrate.

Run it and let me know what you got.

[retro-man]

Have you had a diagnosis done?

The reason I ask, is because that system does not use a tempature blend door. It uses coolant flow to adjust the tempature. You could just have either a Evap discharge temp senor failure or a possibly a incar temp sensor failure. Both are cheaper than a control head.

You can run self test on it your self.

Press Floor and off at the same time. Release and imediately press auto. Then the system will do a test and count down and the fan speed indicator will go up and down. After about 10- 20 sec it will flash a code. IE 21 95 or something like 13 15. After the code is displayed, you can press front defrost to clear codes and system will recalibrate.

Run it and let me know what you got.

Wow, thank you! I will give that a try. I am leaving in a couple of hours and will be overseas for a couple of weeks. I will try it as soon as I get back.

[Roadrunner]

Not to hijack the thread, but may I ask what color your T-Bird is? I live in the Seattle area now and if I see a T-Bird I'll give a friendly wave on I-5 or I-405, whichever the case may be.

 

Me? White Fusion.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Roadrunner

[J-150]

Not to hijack the thread, but may I ask what color your T-Bird is? I live in the Seattle area now and if I see a T-Bird I'll give a friendly wave on I-5 or I-405, whichever the case may be.

 

Me? White Fusion.

 

 

 

I hear it's Mary Kay pink...

 

[Roadrunner]

I hear it's Mary Kay pink...

 

 

 

[retro-man]

Not to hijack the thread, but may I ask what color your T-Bird is? I live in the Seattle area now and if I see a T-Bird I'll give a friendly wave on I-5 or I-405, whichever the case may be.

 

Me? White Fusion.

 

Midlife Red. Most of my freeway time is on I-90, between Issaquah and S. Bellevue Way. About 18,000 mi. / yr., so plenty of opportunity to spot me. I'll keep my eyes open for White Fusion.

[retro-man]

I hear it's Mary Kay pink...

 

 

Now just what did I do to deserve that!?! :shades:

[retro-man]

Have you had a diagnosis done?

The reason I ask, is because that system does not use a tempature blend door. It uses coolant flow to adjust the tempature. You could just have either a Evap discharge temp senor failure or a possibly a incar temp sensor failure. Both are cheaper than a control head.

You can run self test on it your self.

Press Floor and off at the same time. Release and imediately press auto. Then the system will do a test and count down and the fan speed indicator will go up and down. After about 10- 20 sec it will flash a code. IE 21 95 or something like 13 15. After the code is displayed, you can press front defrost to clear codes and system will recalibrate.

Run it and let me know what you got.

I ran the diagnostic. It flashed through 26 such codes, with the fan speed indicator going up and down as you said. I could hear things creaking in the dash. After the 26th code and fan cycle, basically the whole display lit up: showing full "eights" and both fahrenheit and celsius indicators and full fan (though it wasn't running full fan). What should I make of this? It reset as you say when I pushed front defrost. I will check the function again tomorrow on the commute.

 

[edit in] Yep, still not working right - either all hot or all cold (BTW, that's AC cold, not outside air cold). So, given the fact that it flashes through 26 different codes, does that mean that 26 different things are wrong with the control head? Thanks again for the help. I appreciate it.

Edited September 8, 2009 by retro-man

[Mark B. Morrow]

Now just what did I do to deserve that!?! :shades:

 

 

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

A secure man can drive a pink T-Bird if he wants to.

[retro-man]

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

A secure man can drive a pink T-Bird if he wants to.

 

Damn straight! (pun intended)

 

[J-150]

Now just what did I do to deserve that!?! :shades:

 

 

as was said, it's a masculine thing to be able to drive a pink T-Bird.

 

 

[retro-man]

Ah, another $1,856.48 today; for one - one - spark plug and "coil pack" (spark plug wire) ($342.37 for that, parts and labor) and for parts: the above mentioned climate control head ($593.27), and parts to rebuild the whining rear differential ($729.28). When the parts come in, approx. another $1,300.00 in labor.

[J-150]

Ah, another $1,856.48 today; for one - one - spark plug and "coil pack" (spark plug wire) ($342.37 for that, parts and labor) and for parts: the above mentioned climate control head ($593.27), and parts to rebuild the whining rear differential ($729.28). When the parts come in, approx. another $1,300.00 in labor.

 

 

 

sorry to hear that.

 

I think it's to to put this bird in the oven

[fordtech1]

sorry to hear that.

 

I think it's to to put this bird in the oven

 

If you like the t-bird so much, just look for a low mileage 05 model. They are better all the way around than the 02.

[silvrsvt]

As much as I hate to say this, but Ford had serious issues with its cars back in the early 2000's with reliability...my family all got cars right around that time period and they all had sorts of major issues with them...mostly the typical problems that you read about on the internet with the cars (Explorer and Focus SVT)

 

We've gotten new cars since (2006-2008-2010 models) then and all of them have been running like tops without any major issues

[retro-man]

Update: so the saga continues: I had the new climate control head unit and differential gear parts installed. The labor was only $850.00 for the two, not $1,300.00 as I was given to fear.

 

So, I picked up the car, peeled the brand new sticker off the face of the climate control head, and start driving home. I had the interior temperature set at 69^ fahrenheit. During the trip home, the temperature inside the car ranged from 59^f to 89^f. Same thing next morning. I took it back to the dealer. This time, the "coolant control valve" is suspected. See, unlike other cars, where the hot water goes through the heater coil and the air is mixed with a blend door, in the T-bird, the coolant itself is regulated, while the air is constant. Because that's easier and simpler, right? (The diagnostic on the control head did show that it was toast. Perhaps they both failed at once? Or one caused the other to fail?) At any rate, that should be another $850.00 or so: $300-some for the part, coolant, and 4 hours labor. That should take my total for the last couple of months up to around $4k. And the engine is still stumbling sometimes. They warned me that the rest of those "coil packs" may need to be replaced.

 

On the plus side, I get at least 2 compliments a week on how beautiful the car looks.

 

 

Technician with new parts for the T-Bird climate control system

Edited October 16, 2009 by retro-man

[96towncarcartier]

Ah, another $1,856.48 today; for one - one - spark plug and "coil pack" (spark plug wire) ($342.37 for that, parts and labor) and for parts: the above mentioned climate control head ($593.27), and parts to rebuild the whining rear differential ($729.28). When the parts come in, approx. another $1,300.00 in labor.

 

 

I totally have to agree with a previous post here, it sounds like to me it's been bad service diagnosis. When the tech just "guesses" at the problem, then you keep having to go back again and again. Do you know the tech that works on your car?

 

I got to know all the techs at my dealer, because I used to work there in sales. I built up a rock solid trust with the whole team, so I'm extremely picky where I take my car. I know if I need something pretty serious to be done (which I haven't had to do yet) I go to Andy, who is a Master Technician. He did work on my mom's Grand Marquis a few years ago and the work was flawless.

 

Get to know your techs, but I suspect if you try a different dealer (even try a Lincoln Mercury store) you could get these problems fixed quick in one fell swoop.

 

Coil packs rarely go bad...are you sure you need that done? I've never replaced a coil pack.

I only had rear differential work done once, and it was on my 1987 Crown Vic. Water had gotten in there. Never had another problem.

 

Hate to admit, but the early years 2000-2002 were rough years, as there were major product launches during that time on new platforms and with new technologies. As with any product, going from blueprint to actual product will reveal goofs and glitches that you can't predict on paper. So, Focus, Thunderbird, LS were lines that had troubles since they all launched in that timeframe.

 

Starting 2003, the bugs were worked out and all was good again.

Edited November 5, 2009 by 96TownCarCartier