udontkno Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Four things: The union is not overpaid for the work they perform. Ford is not "going out of business" even if they filed bankruptcy tomorrow, they would still continue to build vehicles. Ford is currently profitable in NA, and has been for years globally. Ford is already way ahead of the competition! I agree that Fords union workers are not overpaid. I am not a finance guy so its hard for me to quantify if Ford is profitable in NA it depends on how R&D, accounting ect.. are charged. When Ford uses American engineers to develop a vehicle to be built in China for the Asian market, are the cost for the American engineers in the US charged to NA or Asia? When Ford purchases parts from an in house supplier based in Europe, is the purchase for the part at cost or is the supplier paid a profit? If paid a profit, the profit of the vehicle in NA would be reduced on the NA books by the same amount. Ford is no where near Honda, Toyota, Nissan or BMW, Damiler in cash flow or debt. So to say Ford is already ahead of the competition it would depend on what your talking about. Ford is pushing $40 billion in debt, Toyota has little debt and $30 billion cash, with a credit rating that allows them to get financing at less than 5% interest. Fords credit rating is not very good and is charged over 10% for financing. Finally, there is some question whether the US govt would back a Ford bankruptcy in todays enviroment. When the govt backed Chrysler and GM it was with a backdrop of the worst depression since the 1930's and the govt believed a liquidation of Chrysler and or GM would push the already bad economy into a bigger crisis. Therefore it is no forgone conclusion that the US or any other country would provide bankruptcy financing to Ford and this could result in a liquidation. Which could end vehicle production. Now this probably wouldnt happen, but never say never in our greedy capitalist country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenhawkings Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Four things: The union is not overpaid for the work they perform. Ford is not "going out of business" even if they filed bankruptcy tomorrow, they would still continue to build vehicles. Ford is currently profitable in NA, and has been for years globally. Ford is already way ahead of the competition! well when you consider how much a college educated educator of your children gets paid you have to wonder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecilmeyer Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 well when you consider how much a college educated educator of your children gets paid you have to wonder...What I am wondering about is why people like you imply just because you do not have a piece of paper that says you are educated, that somehow you do not deserve to make a decent living?Didn't George Bush have a degree from Yale?What does that tell you about education?My wife and I home schooled our children for years and they have done exceptionally well in the public school system.And neither of us have degees.Just because you have a college degree does not make you EDUCATED anymore than not having a degree makes you uneducated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gocash Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 well when you consider how much a college educated educator of your children gets paid you have to wonder... all the brains in the world won't make you streetsmart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Wahrheit Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 What I am wondering about is why people like you imply just because you do not have a piece of paper that says you are educated, that somehow you do not deserve to make a decent living?Didn't George Bush have a degree from Yale?What does that tell you about education?My wife and I home schooled our children for years and they have done exceptionally well in the public school system.And neither of us have degees.Just because you have a college degree does not make you EDUCATED anymore than not having a degree makes you uneducated. Go to work do your job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordworker Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I agree that Fords union workers are not overpaid. I am not a finance guy so its hard for me to quantify if Ford is profitable in NA it depends on how R&D, accounting ect.. are charged. When Ford uses American engineers to develop a vehicle to be built in China for the Asian market, are the cost for the American engineers in the US charged to NA or Asia? When Ford purchases parts from an in house supplier based in Europe, is the purchase for the part at cost or is the supplier paid a profit? If paid a profit, the profit of the vehicle in NA would be reduced on the NA books by the same amount. Ford is no where near Honda, Toyota, Nissan or BMW, Damiler in cash flow or debt. So to say Ford is already ahead of the competition it would depend on what your talking about. Ford is pushing $40 billion in debt, Toyota has little debt and $30 billion cash, with a credit rating that allows them to get financing at less than 5% interest. Fords credit rating is not very good and is charged over 10% for financing. Finally, there is some question whether the US govt would back a Ford bankruptcy in todays enviroment. When the govt backed Chrysler and GM it was with a backdrop of the worst depression since the 1930's and the govt believed a liquidation of Chrysler and or GM would push the already bad economy into a bigger crisis. Therefore it is no forgone conclusion that the US or any other country would provide bankruptcy financing to Ford and this could result in a liquidation. Which could end vehicle production. Now this probably wouldnt happen, but never say never in our greedy capitalist country. put down the joint my friend!! Ford is no where near $40 billion in debt.. the said by next yr they might be at $34 billion but this includes that $23 billion "line of credit"/"equity line" thats it.... again they might be.. right now there at 26-28 bills.... there fudging the numbers thats it.... Even more if u want to get technical ford is over $150 billion in debt if want to count all of the loans they have given out for new car purchases through ford credit numbers are what u want them to be there all open to ford favorite word "interpretation"" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecilmeyer Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Go to work do your job! You are really pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) What I am wondering about is why people like you imply just because you do not have a piece of paper that says you are educated, that somehow you do not deserve to make a decent living?Didn't George Bush have a degree from Yale?What does that tell you about education?My wife and I home schooled our children for years and they have done exceptionally well in the public school system.And neither of us have degees.Just because you have a college degree does not make you EDUCATED anymore than not having a degree makes you uneducated. You can say that again there are plenty of educated dummies in management. I'm sorry but if you are book smart, and have no understanding of mechanical practical application, or an understanding of process application you have no business directing autoworkers for a living. Just because you have met the minimum requirements to get a degree, does not mean you have obtained common sense. Not to mention certifications that show you are trained specifically for the field you intend on working in are now more valuable then a degree that only shows you attended college for X amount of years studying unrelated subjects. Question: if you were hiring a project manager would you hire A or B? A. a college grad with a four year degree studying about Alexander the great B. a candidate with certifications showing that they are proficient in the field that you intend on hiring for. So you see college is overrated, and yes professors are overpaid. It is a huge scam, because if you really wanted to see people good at their profession revert back to the old days, and begin allowing children to go to work with there parents to learn a trade. Rather then bilking the public billions in tuition, and costing them thousands in student loans per person before they ever get to start their career. This would eliminate people being put into high level positions simply because they went to college, and give them jobs they know and can handle based on experience and skill. Edited September 5, 2009 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homerhero Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Question: if you were hiring a project manager would you hire A or B? A. a college grad with a four year degree studying about Alexander the great B. a candidate with certifications showing that they are proficient in the field that you intend on hiring for. I don't know Alexander the great was one cool dude huuh huuh!?'' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecilmeyer Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 You can say that again there are plenty of educated dummies in management. I'm sorry but if you are book smart, and have no understanding of mechanical practical application, or an understanding of process application you have no business directing autoworkers for a living. Just because you have met the minimum requirements to get a degree, does not mean you have obtained common sense. Not to mention certifications that show you are trained specifically for the field you intend on working in are now more valuable then a degree that only shows you attended college for X amount of years studying unrelated subjects. Question: if you were hiring a project manager would you hire A or B? A. a college grad with a four year degree studying about Alexander the great B. a candidate with certifications showing that they are proficient in the field that you intend on hiring for. So you see college is overrated, and yes professors are overpaid. It is a huge scam, because if you really wanted to see people good at their profession revert back to the old days, and begin allowing children to go to work with there parents to learn a trade. Rather then bilking the public billions in tuition, and costing them thousands in student loans per person before they ever get to start their career. This would eliminate people being put into high level positions simply because they went to college, and give them jobs they know and can handle based on experience and skill. I could not have stated it any better than that.Furious you have gained my respect on this forum.Please keep posting.This forum needs more of your intelligent input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I could not have stated it any better than that.Furious you have gained my respect on this forum.Please keep posting.This forum needs more of your intelligent input! My beloved granny, God rest her soul, always said the world was full of educated idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marginal Economist Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 You can say that again there are plenty of educated dummies in management. I'm sorry but if you are book smart, and have no understanding of mechanical practical application, or an understanding of process application you have no business directing autoworkers for a living. Just because you have met the minimum requirements to get a degree, does not mean you have obtained common sense. Not to mention certifications that show you are trained specifically for the field you intend on working in are now more valuable then a degree that only shows you attended college for X amount of years studying unrelated subjects. Question: if you were hiring a project manager would you hire A or B? A. a college grad with a four year degree studying about Alexander the great B. a candidate with certifications showing that they are proficient in the field that you intend on hiring for. So you see college is overrated, and yes professors are overpaid. It is a huge scam, because if you really wanted to see people good at their profession revert back to the old days, and begin allowing children to go to work with there parents to learn a trade. Rather then bilking the public billions in tuition, and costing them thousands in student loans per person before they ever get to start their career. This would eliminate people being put into high level positions simply because they went to college, and give them jobs they know and can handle based on experience and skill. If I'm hiring a project manager, I'm hiring someone with: 1. A 4 year degree 2. Certififications showing they are proficient in the field I'm hiring them for. 3. Experience managing people and a track record of getting the job done. Just a trade or just a degree is not enough anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 (edited) If I'm hiring a project manager, I'm hiring someone with:1. A 4 year degree 2. Certififications showing they are proficient in the field I'm hiring them for. 3. Experience managing people and a track record of getting the job done. Just a trade or just a degree is not enough anymore. That's the problem though, we all know people in management that only have the degrees while they lack the skills. If Ford's HR department had the same restrictions you would implement then this would not be the case! Edited September 5, 2009 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long donkey Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 well when you consider how much a college educated educator of your children gets paid you have to wonder... I am curious as to your intent/meaning with the above statement. Could you elaborate a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockofCashel Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 Just remember people, it was college educated people who got our company and country into the mess we are currently in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triton5.4 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Just remember people, it was college educated people who got our company and country into the mess we are currently in. Aint that the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger4.0 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 What I am wondering about is why people like you imply just because you do not have a piece of paper that says you are educated, that somehow you do not deserve to make a decent living?Didn't George Bush have a degree from Yale?What does that tell you about education?My wife and I home schooled our children for years and they have done exceptionally well in the public school system.And neither of us have degees.Just because you have a college degree does not make you EDUCATED anymore than not having a degree makes you uneducated. College doesn't teach intelligence. You either have it, or you don't. If you do, college develops it, makes it into a tool for your sucess, assuming you have the drive and ambition also required. If you don't have it, college is a waste, and if you somehow emerge from college and graduate, you will be a burden to whoever hires you. Unfortunately, Ford hired alot of the latter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockofCashel Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 College doesn't teach intelligence. You either have it, or you don't. If you do, college develops it, makes it into a tool for your sucess, assuming you have the drive and ambition also required. If you don't have it, college is a waste, and if you somehow emerge from college and graduate, you will be a burden to whoever hires you. Unfortunately, Ford hired alot of the latter. Yeah, then they fired the smart ones in the first round of salaried buyouts to protect their own asses. We got left with the retards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_A Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Just remember people, it was college educated people who got our company and country into the mess we are currently in. And just remember that, in part because of attitudes like this, that college educated buyers tend to buy non-union more than any other group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uaw400 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I'm just pretty sick of both sides blaming each other for the state that we are in ! If we can work together as a team ther's no telling how far we can move forward as a union and as a company ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buster6969 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Yeah, then they fired the smart ones in the first round of salaried buyouts to protect their own asses. We got left with the retards. If anyone needs any supervisor's, ACH has them in layers on top of layers. Absolutely rediculous!! They company needs to be more competitive, then they should show us. Does anyone know the national average for salaried to hourly? They always run that shit by us (skilled/production). Why not hold them to the same standard. 100/1 sounds good to me, but we are flexible Mr. Mulally. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udontkno Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I'm just pretty sick of both sides blaming each other for the state that we are in ! If we can work together as a team ther's no telling how far we can move forward as a union and as a company ! I totally agree. But there is a group of white collar's that are trying to beat the union and union workers. They somehow believe that they will get ahead if they can put the screws to the union workers. On our side there is a small group of union workers that believe its us against the company and the union should do everything possible to help them get over on the company. Both camps need to find employment else where. If Fords management team gave more responsibilities to the union workers, the company could make more money and the union workers could have better job security. It bothers me when a couple of "union" employees try to beat or take advantage of the company by leaving early on the clock or taking long lunchs on the clock, sleeping on the clock ect.. These knuckleheads make every union worker look bad and do nothing for us when we try to get job security or better employment conditions. I am 110% union but these guys need 1 warning and the second time they get caught at the bar or sleeping on the clock they need to be fired. All of the white collars that are only trying to figure out ways to cut jobs or outsource work need to be fired, they are doing nothing for the company or union workers. White collar workers need to find ways to improve the vehicles, parts, processes ect.. anything else is a waste of Fords money and will perpetuate a divided company that will continue to lose market share. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigcountry Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 It's simple.......Just vote NO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cecilmeyer Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) I'm just pretty sick of both sides blaming each other for the state that we are in ! If we can work together as a team ther's no telling how far we can move forward as a union and as a company !That would be great but the vast majority of the blame whether you like it or not goes to corporate america and that includes management and white collar workers.They are the ones that are breaking all the unions and outsourcing our jobs and forcing us to compete in a race to the bottom with the worlds poorest and most abused workers.Do not try to place blame on the workers.The VAST majority of workers are very hard working.It is the very,very small number of workers that are lazy that the company uses as an excuse to beat down the union and take all that they can.There is no working together with a ruthless enemy.And that is exactly what they are.So you keep thinking we can work together just like the foolish dems with the rethugs on healthcare.They would rather see millions of americans have no healthcare and keep doing business as usual like lining their pockets from corporate america than do the humane and decent thing.Work together?They are already back at the table breaking our contract for the third time!.And you get on this forum preaching "Lets work together"?And just exactly what have the workers done to bring down the big 3?Design cars with poor mileage?Give crappy service at the dealers?Pay union leaders millions of dollars even though we are loosing money?Use low quality parts in vehicles to save a penny?Please explain how the blame is in any way equal in this situation.Quote" However Ford has not followed through with any of their new product commitments as of yet, and OHAP has not even been given the bodyshop they were promised. The proof is in the pudding, and so far Ford is neglecting their commitments." Edited September 7, 2009 by cecilmeyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockofCashel Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 And just remember that, in part because of attitudes like this, that college educated buyers tend to buy non-union more than any other group. How is that an attitude? It's a fact. We don't make the decisions, we just build what they put in front of us. If our behavior affects their decisions, then shame on them. I know there are people who don't take their jobs seriously, but as a whole the union component of Ford Motor Company is fairly competent. The problem is that one bad salaried worker has more of an impact than one bad union worker. It comes down to responsibility. As a salaried worker, your decisions are more far reaching than a union worker's typically are. Once both sides realize that each is necessary to run the business, things will start to improve. Unfortunately there is a lack of respect from the salaried side for the union side because of the idiots we have and vice-vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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