Lutz says Camaro needs to sell 100k a year...

[igor]

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...ChicagoAutoShow

 

What do you think..

 

Is this just a meaningles assertion - because it would sell it even in the current form, or is it a first sign of typical price pont engineering that will kill the concept to increase sales, or will simply kill the whole project because of "weak" bussiness plan?

 

For comparison: Mustang sold about 60k in the first 4 months of 2006.

 

Igor

Edited May 15, 2006 by igor

[bec5150]

With the flex plants available, if GM uses the base chassis and can build other, more mainstream products off of the platform, I don't see why they would need 100K of volume. I watched Autoline Detroit about two months ago and according to their expert, a niche vehicle built on an existing platform at a flex plant can make money with an annual output of around 20K, sometimes even less.

 

Back in the day, if you wanted horsepower, handling, and looks, you bought a Camaro, Mustang, or other pony car. But remember, back then the market didn't have sports sedans. I think that comsumers are spoiled with vehicles like the modern day Charger, complete with RWD, performance, handling, looks, AND sedan convenience.

 

The first year 1964.5 Mustang sold in the 400-600K/yr range and the debut Camaro in 68 sold something like 300K. Those days are over.

Edited May 15, 2006 by bec5150

[156n3rd]

Yes, ge emm guys like to predict how good they're gonna be, BS. I don't know why, maybe it's just my Chevy prejudice (I hate that word), but I do not like the proprotions and look of the thing. It's typical for Chevy to screw up a sure thing. The closer to the original, the better the selling power. :blah:

[StevenJ]

What Bec said. Just come out with three or four vehicles based on that platform and they'll have enough variety that they can adjust production numbers as needed if one product sells more than the other. I honestly hope the Camaro comes through, not because I'd buy it, because there's a good chance of a RWD Imapla too or a new RWD Buick sedan. I want the new RWD Impala assuming it isn't as ugly as the current W body cars :D and it is priced at or around $32,000 for a 5.3l V8. That's assuming nothing is done with the panther cars though.

[marc-o]

100k units is no problem, there are plenty of ways to go about it.

 

Considering how badly the GTO was screwed up though, 100k could be a problem for GM.

[silvrsvt]

Wasn't the F-body even lucky to sell anywhere near 100K units a year? That had two models to sell under also.

 

I dont understand what the issue is if GM can share this platform with a Sedan and make the Camaro off it also, volume wouldnt be an issue. I guess GM doesnt get Flex platforms yet :rolleyes:

[retro-man]

Nomad. El Camino.

[ANTAUS]

Compeition, make good vehicles, better. Maybe this will wake Ford up and do contineous improvements to the Mustang as it ages. And if, and, or but, I would say if GM bases more sedans off the platform, then it makes a good business case for itself. That's what Ford should have done from the start...as it usually has been, rather than basing it off a sole limited platform.

[Evil95GT]

I think with Camaro/Firebird twins on the same platform, hitting the 100K mark wouldn;t be a problem at all, if you combine the sales from the base V6, Z28, Formula, and/or SS and WS6.

 

Granted, the Mustang always outsold the F-body twins, at times by more than a 2:1 margin. That being said, I feel that ALOT of people were sad to see the demise of the F-bodies. There are so many people out there who have wished (since 2002) that they *could* own another Camaro or Firebird. Now is the prime time for GM to get their asses into the game.

[silvrsvt]

Compeition, make good vehicles, better. Maybe this will wake Ford up and do contineous improvements to the Mustang as it ages. And if, and, or but, I would say if GM bases more sedans off the platform, then it makes a good business case for itself. That's what Ford should have done from the start...as it usually has been, rather than basing it off a sole limited platform.

 

 

Well in Ford's defence, this is the first ever Mustang that has been built off its own platform, that hasn't been shared with anything else and it looks like it will be profitible for Ford. But also Ford would have been smart to build a Sedan off the platform also, considering their current state in the automotive world.

 

Maybe next time

[old_fairmont_wagon]

My feeling is that Ford should be looking at a visual update for the Mustang. Maybe keep the current retro look for the Ford Mustang, and make a mercury Cougar with the same platform, but with more modern sheetmetal? But, if they put the work into that, they need to find a way to do a Sedan model as well.

[rkisler]

Lutz's comments make good sense to me:

 

First, a lot of responders in this string keep referring to "that platform" as if it's a done deal. There is no new RWD platform for GM yet in North America; it appears to be still in the planning stages. And I would seriously doubt that the North American planning has concluded exactly which vehicles are to built off of the platform. In fact, Lutz's comments indicate to me that GM is struggling with just that analysis now. That means we won't be seeing a new GM RWD platform in the US until 3+ years or maybe not at all.

 

Second, GM has certainly looked at Ford's success with the Mustang. Let's not forget that the Mustang started out with LS roots, but quickly became unique due to cost, proportions, and packaging of the 4.6l engine family. Mustang is now a unique platform within Ford. The upside is it looks great and is selling well. The downside is the flexibility/profitability if volumes go down. And, I'm assuming that 100k is about what Mustang needs to be profitable as a stand-alone platform.

 

Third (and it relates to the second point), it's not always so easy to derive additional vehicles from a common platform. I'm even wondering about the Challenger. It's starting from a relatively large platform and so will require major modification. It remains to be seen if Chrysler goes for high volume/high investment to challenge the Mustang or limited volume/lower investment for image. Chrysler has the knowledge and facilities to pull off a low volume car profitably (Viper, Prowler). Perhaps Lutz knows that whatever new RWD sedans they are working on and the characteristics of the donor platform will not enable GM to pull off affordably a no-compromise Camaro that would be required to challenge Mustang. And they might have also figure they can't afford to devote their resources to a limited production volume image vehicle. Or they aren't capable of making a low production model pay for itself. From a Ford supporter standpoint, the more "whirling dervishes" that GM does before making up their mind is OK by me.

 

I'm glad Ford took the gamble to go where others weren't with the Mustang. It has led to a five year or so run with absolutely no competition. But, as others have mentioned, Ford will have to be prepared for the eventual competition and potential cooling of the segment.

[igor]

My feeling is that Ford should be looking at a visual update for the Mustang. Maybe keep the current retro look for the Ford Mustang, and make a mercury Cougar with the same platform, but with more modern sheetmetal? But, if they put the work into that, they need to find a way to do a Sedan model as well.

 

The facelift is ready, it was ready for this year or next spring release.

 

However, Fields held it back along with bunch of other releases to make sure they all speak the same brand identity... and I am not talking about Dave or Fusion gille (Fields does not really like either one of them). He is trying to create a brand image and identity (as he did with Mazda) and make sure the new products are top of the line competitors. I am not surprised a product as important as Mustang was held back even as Edge, and the facelifts of D3, Expedition and Escape are still being released on time. ... Mustang is way too important to have any mishaps done to it... it will likely be Fields' first baby project, then MKS, B-segments and Focus (well unless the finished 08 Focus facelift is also going to be left on schedule - then the Fields baby project will be the all new 2010 Focus) ....

 

Igor

Edited May 16, 2006 by igor

[NickF1011]

Granted, the Mustang always outsold the F-body twins, at times by more than a 2:1 margin.

 

Not true. In fact, there were at least 10 years where the F-body outsold the Mustang. Don't have the numbers in front of me, but it surprised me the first time I saw it. I think as recently as 1996 or 1997, the F-body outsold the Mustang in the U.S. It was only after that that the F-body fell flat on its face.

 

In either case, 100K units for a new Camaro I think is a little optimistic unless they can get the formula right for a base V6 model, which seemed to be the problem with the 4th gen.

[bolita]

The facelift is ready, it was ready for this year or next spring release.

 

However, Fields held it back along with bunch of other releases to make sure they all speak the same brand identity... and I am not talking about Dave or Fusion gille (Fields does not really like either one of them). He is trying to create a brand image and identity (as he did with Mazda) and make sure the new products are top of the line competitors. I am not surprised a product as important as Mustang was held back even as Edge, and the facelifts of D3, Expedition and Escape are still being released on time. ... Mustang is way too important to have any mishaps done to it... it will likely be Fields' first baby project, then MKS, B-segments and Focus (well unless the finished 08 Focus facelift is also going to be left on schedule - then the Fields baby project will be the all new 2010 Focus) ....

 

Igor

 

A facelift after 2 1/2 years... seems unlikely. Maybe a minor freshning but not even. For 2010 for sure it'll need a major.

 

In any case, I think that the main problem GM will have is that is they go forward with the Camaro they will be late to the game. Mustang has a huge lead and I really doubt the Challenger will challenge (no pun intended) Mustang's leadership

Edited May 16, 2006 by bolita

[NickF1011]

In any case, I think that the main problem GM will have is that is they go forward with the Camaro they will be late to the game. Mustang has a huge lead and I really doubt the Challenger will challenge (no pun intended) Mustang's leadership

 

That's a poor argument at best, and seems to be the same one that people are using to criticize the Fusion and Five Hundred. If your competition dominates a particular segment, that means you shouldn't bother trying to enter it? That makes NO sense. If the potential for sales and profit exist in a segment, you should go after it. Period.

 

There's plenty of room in the pony car market for a new Camaro.

[ANTAUS]

"If your competition dominates a particular segment, that means you shouldn't bother trying to enter it? That makes NO sense. If the potential for sales and profit exist in a segment, you should go after it. Period."

 

Unfortunately thats the reason that many products like the Crown Vic, E-Series have never received much attention... no real competition... TILL, someone enters the market and blindsides them.

[silvrsvt]

"If your competition dominates a particular segment, that means you shouldn't bother trying to enter it? That makes NO sense. If the potential for sales and profit exist in a segment, you should go after it. Period."

 

Unfortunately thats the reason that many products like the Crown Vic, E-Series have never received much attention... no real competition... TILL, someone enters the market and blindsides them.

 

 

Well I think the Mustang is different...just look at the previous generation...it used the same basic platform for nearly 25 years, besides an update in 1994. The Mustang is much like the Corvette, its the flagship/Pennant runner for Ford is the car people assoate with Ford. Ford nearly fucked it up in the early 1990's, but thankfully they turned that ship around. Also I think Ford has finally seen the light with its automotive products and is now on a 4-5 year refresh cycle with them, instead of letting them die on the vine like they've been doing for the past 20 years or so. Lets see if they keep that up though.

 

Personally I think the Challenger might turn into another GTO, a nice car that doesnt sell that well, esp if they dont have a V6 model. Plus not to mention the thing is a pig when it comes to weight from what I've read..something like 3600 lbs+

[Patriotic]

I do believe it would be GREAT for GM and DCX to go forward with ponycars. It's a market the rest of the world doesn't "get". It's uniquely American. The more the better.

 

Besides, competition will be a reminder for Ford to keep the updates flowing.

[marc-o]

That's a poor argument at best, and seems to be the same one that people are using to criticize the Fusion and Five Hundred. If your competition dominates a particular segment, that means you shouldn't bother trying to enter it? That makes NO sense. If the potential for sales and profit exist in a segment, you should go after it. Period.

 

There's plenty of room in the pony car market for a new Camaro.

 

I buy that but the price needs to be right. The Camaro was usually more expensive than the Mustang and sales reflected that. The Mustang has always been a value leader and its been its strongest asset against competition. I dont see the Camaro competing this time around either.

[oldracer]

Challenger a "pig" at 3600 lbs?

How about the 3700 lb Mustang?

 

C'mon its got motor, no problem. :happy feet:

 

Challenger a "pig" at 3600 lbs?

How about the 3700 lb Mustang?

 

C'mon its got motor, no problem. :happy feet:

[silvrsvt]

Challenger a "pig" at 3600 lbs?

How about the 3700 lb Mustang?

 

C'mon its got motor, no problem. :happy feet:

 

Challenger a "pig" at 3600 lbs?

How about the 3700 lb Mustang?

 

C'mon its got motor, no problem. :happy feet:

 

 

I screwed up...the Challenger concept weighs 4160 pounds!

 

In comparison:

 

06 Mustang GT: 3515 in coupe form

07 Shebly GT-500: 3,920 pounds with an extra 25Hp over the Hemi that might show up in the Challenger.

 

Off Topic...damn a 5.4L Iron block weighs ~400 lbs more then the alumium 3v 4.6L :rolleyes:

 

 

The concept car has a 116 inch wheelbase, while the other LXs use a 120 inch wheelbase; but it’s a custom-made, carbon-fiber-bodied one-off concept car. The 1970 Challenger was 191 inches long (with a 110 inch wheelbase); the concept is 198 inches, and two inches wider than the original. Built by Metalcrafters, it weighs 4,160 pounds.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

That's why I wish that they had chosen to produce a GT350 with the all aluminum 3V 5.4L with a cam and tune for 350 hp and 390 lbs of torque. It would only have to weigh about 75 lbs or so more than a regular GT, but, for 75 lbs more torque and 50 more ponies, that's a fair trade. They could have gone and put a centrifugal supercharger on it like the Lightning had. With a stronger crank, the same engine could have dished out 430 lbs of torque and 400 hp. That would make a fine GT400, and still only weigh about 125 lbs more than a regular GT.

 

But, what's about 400 lbs of iron in the nose of a car like the mustang between friends?

[NickF1011]

But, what's about 400 lbs of iron in the nose of a car like the mustang between friends?

 

About 200 lbs too much when they could just as easily use the aluminum casting. Ford's continued claim of "durability issues" with the aluminum block under forced induction is a load of bull, and everyone who has ever seen a forced induction aluminum modular motor knows this.

 

Ford is coming out with some great new products. They just need to stop skimping on the little things that make a big difference. How much are they REALLY saving by using an iron block in a run of 9000 cars a year? A few hundred thousand bucks maybe?? Give me a break.

[matthewq4b]

I,m sure DCX will trim some fat from the Concept Challenger. Rember it was a concept cobbled together from a LX chassis.

 

The Mustang has unique appeal. It caters to both the Boy racer crowd and the moderatly affluent single women (secretary types). I,m not sure that the Challenger will have as broad appeal. I can not see many secretary types dropping coin on this thing.

 

The V6 stang is good alternative to many of the Jap coupes these women seem to love (Acura RSX for eg).

The Mustang is the only NA alternative to many of the Japanesses coupes. This has been the Stangs greatest asset, one the few NA cars that gets looked at in conjuction with Jap units.

 

 

Now for the guys I think the Challenger will have big appeal But the question is are they going to be willing to drop the coin on the pedestrian units that most of them can afford and afford to insure. This car will most likly came with the same power train options as the LX cars. It would make no sence to do any thing but. Unless of course DCX is looking at this thing as low volume unit only.

 

The Hemi is going to be a big selling point in the Challenger. And is going to spin off a pile of drag racing brackets. If the cars do not come SRA equipped is will not be long befor we see conversions.

And SRA would certainly cut the cost of these cars and help reduce the MRSP. I do not think the lack IRS would hurt them in the sales dept. (for the 6.1L it most likly be a bonus). But the reduction in purchase price would do nothign but good.

 

The Challenger will be sucsessfull, the question is to what degree. Will it get any thing other than the male market in large numbers. And to truely get some numbers it is going to have to have a broad appeal. And I just do not see this happening. I can not see it it being cross shopped with Acura RSX coupes, like the Mustang is.

 

GMC is in a decent postion for this market. They are going to get to see if the Challenger is a hit or received with a luke warm reception. If it is luke warm then they know they have to move their pony car-s closer to the Mustang and appeal more to women , as it stands now GMC already sells the bulk of their 2 door Cobalt's (Cavilier) to women so they have experiance in this segment.

 

If the Challenger is a hit then GMC can go full out in the styling. Plus they can with little investment spin off a Firebird. So they can cover both ends of the spectrum.

 

 

This is what pisses me off with Ford they could spin off a Cougar variant. Then Ford can fully cover both ends of the spectrum. A bigger power more agressivly styled Mustang and a more reserved styled, refined Cougar.

 

 

I think Ford missed an opportunity to add some sales with minimal investment with a Cougar. Maybe once Mustang sales cool a little, maybe then we will see a Mercury variant.

 

 

Matthew