TheScrutenizer Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 Enough with the hand wringing and buyers remorse about this defeated measure, people. The company isn't in the business of hand slapping. It is in the business to make money. If KCAP, closes or any other location for that matter, it was in the works long before this came up. You are absolutely correct. Wixom was never closed, it was just idled for eternity. Never forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
local400future Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 "4. By the time 2015 rolled around, and with it new contract negotiations, we might possibly have a majority of UAW autoworkers making $14.20 an hour. I am sure after working 6 years at the same jobs as us higher-wage workers, working the harder less-senioritied jobs and shifts, and making 1/2 of what we do, these $14.20 an hour employees would be angry (not at Ford, but at us: It always happens that way for some reason. Rather than thinking they should be making as much as we do, people always seem to think we should make less. Odd way of thinking in my opinion)." The major hole in that theory is that the negotiators would be master rate agreement employees, they're not going to negotiate their own wages down. The IUAW would also be opposed because of the potential loss of union dues. I think greed at the upper levels would actually benefit us for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted November 3, 2009 Share Posted November 3, 2009 "4. By the time 2015 rolled around, and with it new contract negotiations, we might possibly have a majority of UAW autoworkers making $14.20 an hour. I am sure after working 6 years at the same jobs as us higher-wage workers, working the harder less-senioritied jobs and shifts, and making 1/2 of what we do, these $14.20 an hour employees would be angry (not at Ford, but at us: It always happens that way for some reason. Rather than thinking they should be making as much as we do, people always seem to think we should make less. Odd way of thinking in my opinion)." The major hole in that theory is that the negotiators would be master rate agreement employees, they're not going to negotiate their own wages down. The IUAW would also be opposed because of the potential loss of union dues. I think greed at the upper levels would actually benefit us for a change. Double the workers at half the pay equals out, greed accomplished from both company and union sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Rivet Head Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 (edited) Rumor has it KCAP will be getting a new product while their current products move to LAP (Escape/Mariner) and KTP (F-Series).Ranger maybe? Rumor I heard from an engineer... I see them gettting something with the Ranger...they can't stop selling the small truck. Hopefully, they will finally redesign it once profitability becomes the norm again. Actually the latest rumor is that KCAP will be the only F150 plant, building trucks on both sides while Dearborn will get a more tour friendly product. Makes sense consolidating all The materials to one facility with the ability to meet the expected demand over the next few years. I guess time will tell. Edited November 5, 2009 by Old Rivet Head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhopfenzitz Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Actually the latest rumor is that KCAP will be the only F150 plant, building trucks on both sides while Dearborn will get a more tour friendly product. Makes sense consolidating all The materials to one facility with the ability to meet the expected demand over the next few years. I guess time will tell. Then why would ford spend 8 million retooling dtp for reg cab? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain723 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 Ford may not have gained much in the short-term with this renegotiation, but it would have set them up for a big savings (at our expense) come the 2015 contract. I believe this renegotiation was trying to set up a massive two-teared wage system. Why? 1. Ford stated it MAY bring several new products to North America. Our plant LAP, was promised a version of the Kuga in 2011. This would mean quite a few added shifts at several plants and a great number (well over the 20%) of new hires making $14.20 an hour. 2. Over the next 6 years, many other older, higher-waged workers would retire or possibly take another buyout (if it was offered). 3. Now you have more hiring of cheaper new hires, thus increasing the percentage of $14.20 an hour workers to an even higher % of the overall voting UAW force. 4. By the time 2015 rolled around, and with it new contract negotiations, we might possibly have a majority of UAW autoworkers making $14.20 an hour. I am sure after working 6 years at the same jobs as us higher-wage workers, working the harder less-senioritied jobs and shifts, and making 1/2 of what we do, these $14.20 an hour employees would be angry (not at Ford, but at us: It always happens that way for some reason. Rather than thinking they should be making as much as we do, people always seem to think we should make less. Odd way of thinking in my opinion). 5. So, even though Ford and our IUAW reps said the 20% rule would go back into effect for the 2015 contract, this was just smoke and mirrors to placate us into voting "yes" for this past contract. This 20% rule is not set in stone, it was negotiated in a previous contract and could just as easily be given away during the 2015 contract negotiations. More playing with words, using the same tactics our Congressional leaders use to make something sound "like a promise set in stone" when actually they already have figured out a political way of wiggling out of said "promises". 6. Now here we are at the 2015 contract negotiations: Our IUAW reps and Ford tell the majority $14.20 an hour workers (who are tired of working for less than the minority higher-waged workers), that IUAW/FORD feels their pain. They would then use the "Same pay for same work" mantra they abandoned the past 10 years, to convince the $14.20 an hour workers to accept a small pay increase (3% seems to be popular) if they allow Ford to lower the higher-waged employees wages to the new "standard". If this didn't pass then they would offer maybe the return of COLA, etc. . . etc . . until they were finally able to convince them to vote "yes". Now, Ford has a nice new standard of $14.20 an hour from which to hire, instead of the old standard. 7. Given the current value of the $, and an ever-increasing cost for gasoline, natural gas, and everything else in between, you will have an entire Ford workforce making close to poverty-level wages. So much for the blue-collar middle class. Lastly, if Ford managed to equal or do better than Toyota's wage/benefits packages, then Toyota would reduce their employees pay by even more. Then Ford would once again begin negotiating to reduce their labor costs to even lower levels. As stated before. I would rather make a stand now and find myself out of work, rather than find myself out of work at age 55 (what I will be in 2015), or making 1/2 the money and having no rights, with a union which now represents only the working poor. Though I am sure our IUAW leaders are "ok" with that since the increased number of working poor, would probably pay close to what the IUAW currently makes from us higher waged employees. Not a very bright future for 1,000's of us if we let this last contract pass. I would just hope everyone who labeled us as greedy and uneducated would be happy. Especially once they found out the price of auto's weren't reduced, but increased even more, and the local economies (where our plants are located) find themselves in dire need of tax monies to help pay for the increases in healthcare assistance, foodstamps, and other things which our higher salaries helped pay for in past years. I lot of people have forgotten what happens to us, eventually happens to them, unless they are among the top executives at a large corporation, a politician, or one of our elite corporate IUAW leaders. now we know why they say, the autoworker, is uneducated! :shades: Brilliant post! You are saying 21k employees are going to retire in 5 years. Even if that was the case why in the fk would an entry level employee vote to keep his/her wages at entry level? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damagedone37 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 now we know why they say, the autoworker, is uneducated! :shades: Brilliant post! You are saying 21k employees are going to retire in 5 years. Even if that was the case why in the fk would an entry level employee vote to keep his/her wages at entry level? 40% of Ford's work force are 'eligible' for retirement in 5 years. Doesn't mean they are going to it just means they could. That's why they wanted this wage freeze so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wlbren Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 40% of Ford's work force are 'eligible' for retirement in 5 years. Doesn't mean they are going to it just means they could. That's why they wanted this wage freeze so bad. More than that, they were after unlimited low payed employees, they are restricted to the bottom 20% now. If they try to buy us out again with buyouts that would actually get people to go they wouldn't gain much because they would always have the top 80% at higher wages. Get people to go with large buyout and no limit, they could hire one for one every person they could get to leave. That and freezing wages by no strike till 2005 would have made them billions. If they would of actually negotiated real buyouts and everything in this last package who knows more people might have bit. I would love to see a large buyout for me, but for the good of the rest of the employees I am good where I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem12 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 More than that, they were after unlimited low payed employees, they are restricted to the bottom 20% now. If they try to buy us out again with buyouts that would actually get people to go they wouldn't gain much because they would always have the top 80% at higher wages. Get people to go with large buyout and no limit, they could hire one for one every person they could get to leave. That and freezing wages by no strike till 2005 would have made them billions. If they would of actually negotiated real buyouts and everything in this last package who knows more people might have bit. I would love to see a large buyout for me, but for the good of the rest of the employees I am good where I am. yup March2010 I have will have 29 years total service. And they need to remove the restrctions on skilled trades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wlbren Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 yup March2010 I have will have 29 years total service. And they need to remove the restrctions on skilled trades. You and me both Mike, sorry bout your unplanned vac Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikem12 Posted November 5, 2009 Share Posted November 5, 2009 You and me both Mike, sorry bout your unplanned vac yeah live and learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swhoosier Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Well, I'm not saying that every plant that voted no will be idled. But some, more than others, could have used product guarentees. what you need to know is, no product is guarented! why dont you read the fine print and listen between the lines, job products are commitments and not agreements. example we sold 300,000 f150's this year and not 300,001, so therefore we cannot commit to a new product in the u.s. there are so many loop holes in the product commitments with the ford and the uaw its ridiculous, if you go back to the 94 contract to present ford owes the uaw about 20,000 or more jobs on commitments. how many did we really get, none. so when you start crying about jobs, plant idled or product guarentees. there are none. the brothers and sisters sent a messege to ford and international, no more commiments, we want agreements. heres a thought, when ford agreed to the 2007 contract, do you get it ford agreed to the contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipuaw164 Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Ford still sells enough F-150's They will be built at DTP and KCAP DTP retooled for the regular cab can you put a 8 foot box with it I'm sure DTP will be able to in the near future I don't think Ford would try and build its best seller in just one plant From what I hear they have big plans for the F-150 Somebody is buying alot of Lariats and King Ranches "super crew and super cab" we have been building a shit load of them very few regular cabs w/ 8 foot boxes Rumor is theres going to be a second shift put back on the truck side after the first of the year "TFT's" with 3 crews still running on the suv side Ford wants 307,000 escapes this year IUAW says there not going to build a new building for the body shop at KCAP because theres enough floor space available for the new flex body shop Rumer is it will take about 8 months to set in the new body shop and be ready to role with the Transit Van which replaces the Econoline Honestly I do not think the Kuga is going to LAP its staying at KCAP why completely rip it out when you only need to make changes for a flex body shop KCAP TRUCKS 10 hours per day 10 hours sat nov. 7 8 hrs nov 21st dec 5th and 19th SUV A and B Crew Alternating to work every Saturday Night until further notice C crew 12 hours on sunday Don't get me wrong the work is welcome but are we trying to kill someone in SUV :beatdeadhorse: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherAutoWorker Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 (edited) So youre saying here you believe that: KCAP is going to add the bshift back top to the truck side, keep the the 3 shifts to run Escape by using temps, AND Add the transit van to the line up? Wow. I dont even know what to say.... Is there any rumor floating around that KCAP is just going to go ahead and build everything that Ford manufactures so they can shut down all the other plants too? Edited November 6, 2009 by AnotherAutoWorker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wlbren Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 For you guys to have bitched about starting a C-Crew and now you volunteered to work 12 hours on Sundays? 10.7 hours is enough to work the line....If Ford wants 300,000 Escapes then KCAP SUV must be going down for tooling or something after they get the number cause FORD does not sell 300,000 Escapes in a year.. Which side of the plant is going to run the Transit,truck or Suv? Its strange how KCAP Truck is working all that OT and DTP only works 10 hours,we work over if there is a breakdown....You would think DTP would be running 10.7 hours every shift... They only go 10.7 on suv side, not the truck side, and I don't think they will be running final 12 hours. I heard they are going to try to manditory Saturday afternoon for the A and B crew. With the International anything is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twincam Harley Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 They only go 10.7 on suv side, not the truck side, and I don't think they will be running final 12 hours. I heard they are going to try to manditory Saturday afternoon for the A and B crew. With the International anything is possible. Have you seen all of those body shop Kawasaki robots being shipped in to KCAP from parts unknown. Truck after truck. I think they've run out of room to put them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 Have you seen all of those body shop Kawasaki robots being shipped in to KCAP from parts unknown. Might be from Dearborn Stamping. They have a "robot room" where they refurbish Kawasaki robots for all Ford plants. I think they are still doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymdog=XP= Posted November 6, 2009 Share Posted November 6, 2009 For you guys to have bitched about starting a C-Crew and now you volunteered to work 12 hours on Sundays? 10.7 hours is enough to work the line....If Ford wants 300,000 Escapes then KCAP SUV must be going down for tooling or something after they get the number cause FORD does not sell 300,000 Escapes in a year.. Which side of the plant is going to run the Transit,truck or Suv? Its strange how KCAP Truck is working all that OT and DTP only works 10 hours,we work over if there is a breakdown....You would think DTP would be running 10.7 hours every shift... We don't run 10.7 over here at DTP because we can get our numbers in 10 hours. Also I told you jealous pricks that the single cab was coming to DTP, HAHAHA>>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipuaw164 Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) We don't run 10.7 over here at DTP because we can get our numbers in 10 hours. Also I told you jealous pricks that the single cab was coming to DTP, HAHAHA>>> kcap is running overtime to build what the customer wants work trucks DTP IS A SHOW PLANT THAT BUILDS HIGH END MODELS nothing wrong with DTP like KCAP they builds good trucks just a matter of whats in demand However KCAP has been scheduled for OT several times because Dearborn couldn't build what Ford wanted This week we have been building alot of High End Models ? SUV is on 10.7 not the truck side KCAP is getting ready for the kuga Transit goes to LAP Ohio? no replacement for the econoline The F-150 is not leaving KCAP Edited November 7, 2009 by flipuaw164 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lquidspine Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 kcap is running overtime to build what the customer wants work trucks DTP IS A SHOW PLANT THAT BUILDS HIGH END MODELS nothing wrong with DTP like KCAP they builds good trucks just a matter of whats in demand However KCAP has been scheduled for OT several times because Dearborn couldn't build what Ford wanted This week we have been building alot of High End Models ? SUV is on 10.7 not the truck side KCAP is getting ready for the kuga Transit goes to LAP Ohio? no replacement for the econoline The F-150 is not leaving KCAP I really hate how threads like these go, we are one in the same guys. But for the record DTP has been building a lot of low end models the last week or two now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wlbren Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 Guess KCAP can't meet there number,thats why we are building low end trucks! Maybe it is because there is only one shift of trucks at KC. The truck side is not having problems getting their numbers except when they have a power outage that causes loss of production. The Suv side is not like your brand new plant that is climate controlled and has the most latest ergonomic inovations, it is a worn out body shop, the robots are over 20 years old and break down all the time. The body shop runs almost 24/7 to keep up with production lost by break downs. The Suv final area is only slightly better than that it along with the body shop is almost twenty years old parts are older and not much updates have been done. Now the kicker is at least on the truck side they have had the luxury of building vehicles that make the company money and they have spent money to keep it up to date and running smoothly. The Suv side on the other hand has always built vehicles that just cover Fords fuel mileage requirements and don't make the company the kind of money the F150 does. So since that is why Ford has chosen not to spend any money on the Suv side to keep it up to date and keep it so it doesn't break down all day and night long. Ford Management in there wisdom is the reason that KC does not get their numbers on the Suv side not the workers. The suv final area is going through the second worst rebalance I have seen since I have been there, they will settle a job one day and add work to it the next. They are holding hearings on people right and left. They are trying to squeeze every penny out of this vehicle it can because they need to spend money to keep it going. KC workers are not to blame for what is going on at KC as far as loss of numbers, all if it can be blamed on management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtJester Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) I find it strange that when KCAP Truck was running 2 shifts,DTP was rotating downweeks,now that KCAP Truck went to 1 shift DTP is no longer rotating downweeks,but KCAP Truck is working 10 hours a day and Saturdays...Something does not add up... Look, KCAP and DTP work for the same team, right? Let's stop the between the plant bullshit. Edit: Also, you have NO clue about how bad the mgmt is at KCAP now. They have 60 fork drivers on DLO because Ford changed the policy of how to stack stock. Edited November 7, 2009 by CourtJester Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wlbren Posted November 7, 2009 Share Posted November 7, 2009 I find it strange that when KCAP Truck was running 2 shifts,DTP was rotating downweeks,now that KCAP Truck went to 1 shift DTP is no longer rotating downweeks,but KCAP Truck is working 10 hours a day and Saturdays...Something does not add up... What part doesn't add up for you, when there was Norfolk, KC and Dtp there was 5 shifts. When there was just KC and Dtp there was 5 shifts. Now there is not ea need for 5 shifts, but evidently there is a need for somewhere in between. I don't see anything that doesn't add up, the two main reasons KCAP trucks is on 1 shift is they wanted to build 3 shifts of suvs, which doesn't work out so well with the equipment it is being built with, and that Ford wanted to put the C crew back on full time at Dtp, because they're sub was running out. All that matters is everybody is working and no one in KC or Dtp are layed off and having to draw sub credits that are now limited with no job bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pissedKCpainter Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 They only go 10.7 on suv side, not the truck side, and I don't think they will be running final 12 hours. I heard they are going to try to manditory Saturday afternoon for the A and B crew. With the International anything is possible. I don't think they can mandatory Saturday Evenings for the A crew. You cant change start times in the middle of the week. They may just be taking volunteers from both the A and B crews. I think they would be better off working 5 8's and mandatory saturdays than the way you proposed. But as you stated... With the International anything is possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flipuaw164 Posted November 8, 2009 Share Posted November 8, 2009 DTP and KCAP :happy feet: Solidarity 92% 93% We need to stick together No more BS Your better I'm Better WE NOT I ---> WE NEED TO TAKE BACK UAW Ron needs to understand WE not I The Company is I AND I GIVES IT TO US HARD WITH NO REACH AROUND Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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