light comm'l, medium and heavy news

[BAM]

Fords are the same way. Ever since '09 anyway. '08's too if they've been reflashed. Theres too much of a risk for fire if its allowed to regen stationary. What if your parked in a tall prairie grass? That exhaust gets over 1022 degrees! I've noticed when its colder outside the truck does a lot more "active regens" where they run terrible, blow smoke and whatnot, have to be driven 20 miles to finish... When its warmer they go into passive regen and the driver doesn't notice it at all and isn't even alerted by the message center that its doing it.

 

The 6.4 does not have to come back to the dealer for the regen like the 6.7 does.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Wow, gas engines in the 650/750? Does it REALLY have the torque to do justice to that application? Will it's fuel economy even be close enough to make the numbers work? Or are diesel engines just SO expensive up front that the long term expense of poorer gasoline fuel economy never makes up for it? I really have to wonder, with diesel engines getting SO expensive, why not a GDI 6.2L gasser tuned for economy to offer as an alternative? I also wonder, could a 5.0L EB setup do as well? Given the 400ish lbs of torque that it gets N/A, could a twin turbo, GDI, 5.0L V8 that delivers 450-500 hp and 500+ lbs of torque compete?

[Bob Rosadini]

Number 3 yes, but check the volume. Think they will break 5000 units this year? They won't be able to justify spending to meet 2015 emissions at that level. I think things will get better though.

 

The volume is a function of the economy- the fact remains- they are no. three with no marketing effort-or so it appears to mealthough I will say they are beginning to pick up the advertising momentum.It's not Ford. Plant may not be new, it's new to this manufacturer. This manufacturer is currently selling 'white iron' in the U.S.. Can't say who it is just yet.... OK-what is "white Iron"?

 

Other (non-related) news: GM will be selling gasoline engines to Freightliner. PACCAR's in-house DAF diesels look really good, lots of interest. AH-so that must mean if the genius of Freightliner wants gassers, there must be a market for gas???

 

Gas engined Ford F-650??? I doubt it. U-Haul waved a whole bunch of cash in the form of some BIG orders to Ford for a Triton V-10 powered F-650 2 years ago, and Ford (or Blue Diamond or International) wouldn't do it. Too much of a 'disruption' for Escobedo was the excuse. Unless something is about to change.....

 

Got a ride in a brand new big Hino tonight. Very impressive! What wasn't impressive was the Hino was a wrecker sent to rescue me in a broken down Ford truck. That's what I call advertising! DRIVER ABUSE? Yuk yuk

[Bob Rosadini]

Wow, gas engines in the 650/750? Does it REALLY have the torque to do justice to that application? Will it's fuel economy even be close enough to make the numbers work? Or are diesel engines just SO expensive up front that the long term expense of poorer gasoline fuel economy never makes up for it? I really have to wonder, with diesel engines getting SO expensive, why not a GDI 6.2L gasser tuned for economy to offer as an alternative? I also wonder, could a 5.0L EB setup do as well? Given the 400ish lbs of torque that it gets N/A, could a twin turbo, GDI, 5.0L V8 that delivers 450-500 hp and 500+ lbs of torque compete?

 

Remember we are getting "spoiled ' by all these huge torque numbers that the new Power Stroke, Duramax etc are now putting out. How about it 7M3- the old Ford Super Duty V-8s (410, 477, 534 Cu. In.) put out what 480 ft lbs.??

 

If you can't afford the 7 grand premium, and if you don't run the miles and you DON"T want to risk buying used, Gas has to make sense for some applications. And another thought, speaking of the old Super Duty's (you young guys- they were Fords big truck gas engines -1958 to about 1975 when emissions killed them-but in their time a 534 Ford would run with a 220 Cummins or a 673 Mack)- those engines would pass anything but a gas station. My new Taurus SHO is averaging about 23.5 mpg- What about an Ecoboost truck engine???

[7Mary3]

The market has changed a lot in the last two years:

1) GM has abandoned the class 6 gas market.

2) Landed prices of 2010 EPA class 6 diesel trucks are ridiculous.

3) Fuel mileage advantage of diesel not nearly as great as it used to be.

4) Cost of ownership in low to mid mileage usage really swings toward gas.

5) price of diesel fuel Vs. gas.

6) Having to deal with the regen process, ( the Dodge Cummins is by far the worst, I have first hand experience because we sold a lot of the Sterling Bullet chassis and they have to be driven to go into regen, they will not do a stationary regen. If you application does not allow the truck to be driven at highway speeds you are fuct. The dealer has to do the regen and it is not covered under warranty).

7) Sooner or later the Blue Diamond partnership will be over.

8) It reminds me of when Ford said that they will never build another gas powered ambulance, it took a while but they are building them now...

 

Wow, I heard that same speach from GMC reps. back in 2006! They were going to set the medium duty world on fire with their 8.1L gasser. We didn't buy any, opting instead for a big pre-buy of Freightliner and Ford mediums. I know of one local municipal fleet that did go with GMC gas Topkicks, with fair results. At least they are not doing the retrofit dance that we are. Anyway, even though GM didn't sell all too many gas mediums I would like to see Ford give it a shot, provided they have a gas engine up to the task. Those all-iron 8.1L's were pretty tough, and I am not sure the V-10 would be able to stand up to the abuse and heat cycles you see in a 26,000# GVW truck. Our local phone company bought a lot of V-10 F-550's and were not happy with them. Too many cylinder heads. I know the 3 valve versions are better. The 6.2L 'Boss' is not EPA certified for over 14,000# GVW. No idea why. Seems funny. Of course, a future larger HD version of the 'Boss' could be a possibility.

 

Ford is building a gas powered ambulance chassis because they have no choice. Dodge (and Cummins) are indeed having trouble with ineffective regens. Sometimes it gets so bad the DPF needs to be replaced.

 

As for the Ford that broke down on me, it seems like it might be a rusty fuel tank.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

I realize that we are spoiled by the power output of today's modern engines and the 6.2L Gasser makes as much torque as some half ton diesels were making 12-15 years ago. I'm just putting it up against it's likely competition.

 

As for Gas ambulances, I can see the attractiveness of the application. With the chassis being updated so often to offer more and more equipment in the ambulance, it seems that they don't last too long in service anyway. The long term durability of the engine may not be as big of an issue. Personally, I believe that their small 4.4L v8 diesel would have been absolutely perfect for this application.

 

As for the Boss, BlueII already indicated that a 7.0L displacement configuration had been prototyped for it, including a twin turbo package. If they hit it with an EB setup, it could deliver torque levels that are competitive with diesel applications for less up front cost. I wonder if they could get the fuel economy numbers to be half way decent enough to give it long term viability.

[lfeg]

A gas medium makes sense in some applications, and with the ever increasing regs on diesel emissions adding to the price of diesels, some users will start going to gas. And in most mediums, the need for really big touque numbers is really overstated. Torque may get you moving, but that is what gear reduction is for, right? It is horsepower that gets the load over the hill, and as long as the gearing is speced to suit the powerband of the engine, you will have the torque you need at the drive wheels. And fleet owners are really concerned with one thing - they want to spend as little as possible to get the task done, whether it is moving cargo or plowing snow. For some, gas might be better, for others diesel might. It in not an easy answer.

 

And many forget that gas engines have advanced quite a bit from the old Super Duties. In an engine, gas or diesel, efficiency (and hence fuel mileage) is more a function of compression ratio than which cycle the engine operates on. The old Super Duties had what? 7 to 7.5 compression ratio? That was common 55 years ago when they were designed. The trend in recent gas engines is for the CR to get up to the 10 to 11 range, while diesels have been coming down in CR. And pressure charging (supercharger/turbocharger) helps efficiency even more.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

A gas medium makes sense in some applications, and with the ever increasing regs on diesel emissions adding to the price of diesels, some users will start going to gas. And in most mediums, the need for really big touque numbers is really overstated. Torque may get you moving, but that is what gear reduction is for, right? It is horsepower that gets the load over the hill, and as long as the gearing is speced to suit the powerband of the engine, you will have the torque you need at the drive wheels. And fleet owners are really concerned with one thing - they want to spend as little as possible to get the task done, whether it is moving cargo or plowing snow. For some, gas might be better, for others diesel might. It in not an easy answer.

 

And many forget that gas engines have advanced quite a bit from the old Super Duties. In an engine, gas or diesel, efficiency (and hence fuel mileage) is more a function of compression ratio than which cycle the engine operates on. The old Super Duties had what? 7 to 7.5 compression ratio? That was common 55 years ago when they were designed. The trend in recent gas engines is for the CR to get up to the 10 to 11 range, while diesels have been coming down in CR. And pressure charging (supercharger/turbocharger) helps efficiency even more.

 

 

Kinda makes me wonder, might a DOHC 7.0L BOSS with TiVCT that can run in the atkinson cycle like the TiVCt V6s can for this year with a slight bump in CR be the perfect alternative to Diesel engines in the Superduty and Medium line? It would achieve torque numbers in the mid 450s or higher, but be able to switch to the more efficient atkinson cycle during cruise (especially while unloaded or not towing) and achieve fairly impressive gas fuel economy numbers. It still might not match diesel numbers, but for a substantially lower purchase price, it'll make a convincing argument for itself. I remember Blue II mentioning that Ford had a DOHC head designed and perhaps prototyped for it, so it's not going to be a big stretch to put on the street.

[fordmantpw]

Kinda makes me wonder, might a DOHC 7.0L BOSS with TiVCT that can run in the atkinson cycle like the TiVCt V6s can for this year with a slight bump in CR be the perfect alternative to Diesel engines in the Superduty and Medium line? It would achieve torque numbers in the mid 450s or higher, but be able to switch to the more efficient atkinson cycle during cruise (especially while unloaded or not towing) and achieve fairly impressive gas fuel economy numbers. It still might not match diesel numbers, but for a substantially lower purchase price, it'll make a convincing argument for itself. I remember Blue II mentioning that Ford had a DOHC head designed and perhaps prototyped for it, so it's not going to be a big stretch to put on the street.

 

I think you would see those numbers with a TiVCT 6.2L. Supposedly that is in the works for the SD with better fuel economy than the SOHC 6.2L.

[7Mary3]

For the record, Freightliner will be using the GM 6.0L gas V-8 and an Allison 1000 series transmission in FCC stripped chassis. As for the 'Boss' 6.2L, I have been told that it will not be developed as a performance engine. It will be exclusively a truck/commercial powerplant, and despite rumors to the contrary, will not be used in the Mustang. The 5.0L 'Coyote' will be the performance V-8.

[lfeg]

Read an interesting article this morning. It states that heavy commercial (class 7 & 8) sales were up by about 11% nationwide for Jan and Feb over 09. But in Northeast Ohio they were up 55% for that same period, and up 93% in March. The interesting thing is that in Northeast Ohio the sales gain was mostly due to dealers selling off their remaining 09 and 08 inventory to buyers wishing the avoid the 2010 emissions equipment. Good for the dealers to finally move the stagnant inventory, But that inventory of pre 10 trucks is just about gone, so it will be interesting to see what sales do in April and May.

 

Edited April 20, 2010 by lfeg

[Bob Rosadini]

Read an interesting article this morning. It states that heavy commercial (class 7 & 8) sales were up by about 11% nationwide for Jan and Feb over 09. But in Northeast Ohio they were up 55% for that same period, and up 93% in March. The interesting thing is that in Northeast Ohio the sales gain was mostly due to dealers selling off their remaining 09 and 08 inventory to buyers wishing the avoid the 2010 emissions equipment. Good for the dealers to finally move the stagnant inventory, But that inventory of pre 10 trucks is just about gone, so it will be interesting to see what sales do in April and May.

 

4/12 issue of Transport Topics also had piece on increased class 8 sales.. I think you are correct though-"the devil I know is better than the devil I don't know". Let me buy what works!

 

Also in same Transport Topics was piece on renewed interest in medium trucks as shown by Pete and others at Mid America show- no mention of Ford. But on a positive note, April issue of Construction Equipment has a Ford ad with nothing but 650/750 copy. This is a Ford Commercial Truck ad as opposed to the Ford Fleet ads which IMO are useless and a waste of my potential dividend dollars.

 

So IFEG- where did you get your Super Duty knowledge?

[lfeg]

Spending enough time around the right people. A good friend was a mechanic for a company that has close to 100 Ford SA and tandem tractors that had the 534 in them. I never worked on one of the SDs myself, but they were an interesting engine.

[Joe771476]

Bob, I'm glad to see you caught that F series medium ad too! There were five trucks: two 4-dr cabs with two different bodies, two extended cabs with another two bodies and one regular cab with a box. One of the extended cab models had what appeared to be a state highway sized dump body. They must be in the game apparently!

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, I'm glad to see you caught that F series medium ad too! There were five trucks: two 4-dr cabs with two different bodies, two extended cabs with another two bodies and one regular cab with a box. One of the extended cab models had what appeared to be a state highway sized dump body. They must be in the game apparently!

Let's hope so. Again they are no. 3 (or 4 if you throw KW and Pete together) but that is with a limited spec sheet and in my opinion poor marketing effort. What can you say about a company whose web site stil lists Cat as an optional engine? Anyone home?

 

Yet I keep hearing that its a matter of time and they will be back with a legitimate effort. If it would happen I would hope Louisville would be in the picture, but I guess that is a minority opinion. I can't help but think there isn't room at KTP. Think of the transportation cost savings- shipping those cab components to Mexico etc.

 

we shall see.

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, I'm glad to see you caught that F series medium ad too! There were five trucks: two 4-dr cabs with two different bodies, two extended cabs with another two bodies and one regular cab with a box. One of the extended cab models had what appeared to be a state highway sized dump body. They must be in the game apparently!

Let's hope so. Again they are no. 3 (or 4 if you throw KW and Pete together) but that is with a limited spec sheet and in my opinion poor marketing effort. What can you say about a company whose web site stil lists Cat as an optional engine? Anyone home?

 

Yet I keep hearing that its a matter of time and they will be back with a legitimate effort. If it would happen I would hope Louisville would be in the picture, but I guess that is a minority opinion. I can't help but think there isn't room at KTP. Think of the transportation cost savings- shipping those cab components to Mexico etc.

 

we shall see.

[7Mary3]

In other truck news:

 

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2010/04/22/Fiat-to-break-up-after-109-years/UPI-87541271970861/

 

I guess there won't be class 8 Dodge Ram after all (not that I was expecting one). I have heard off and on again rumors that Daimler may spin off DTNA (Freightliner, Western Star, Detroit Diesel). I think that for the most part the medium and heavy truck business is so different from passenger car/light truck now that the days of the big manufacturers building everything from small cars to class 8 trucks are over.

[Bob Rosadini]

In other truck news:

 

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2010/04/22/Fiat-to-break-up-after-109-years/UPI-87541271970861/

 

I guess there won't be class 8 Dodge Ram after all (not that I was expecting one). I have heard off and on again rumors that Daimler may spin off DTNA (Freightliner, Western Star, Detroit Diesel). I think that for the most part the medium and heavy truck business is so different from passenger car/light truck now that the days of the big manufacturers building everything from small cars to class 8 trucks are over.

7M- I would be surprised if Daimler sold DTNA. Isn't daimler the biggest heavy truck builder in the world? Something I alwasy thought they prided themselves on

 

On another note, check out the Hino web site and their vehicle comparison section. Very impressive. Ford can't even keep theirs current- never mind make a comp vehicle comparison.

[BAM]

Spinoff does not mean sell...

 

The reason the C7 is still on the website is because there are still some in dealer inventory and in Ford's (small) F6/750 chassis pool.

Edited April 23, 2010 by BAM

[Bob Rosadini]

Spinoff does not mean sell...

 

The reason the C7 is still on the website is because there are still some in dealer inventory and in Ford's (small) F6/750 chassis pool.

Good point- never thought of that technicality- plus the web site does still identify the trucks as 2009's- And the C7 was a 2009 option I guess there are no 2010 650/750's???

 

In any case, in this day and age when so many people use the web to check specs, one just has to compare Ford's website vs Hino's to see who appears to be committed to the business.

[7Mary3]

Spinoff doesn't mean sell, but it usually means they ain't the same outfit anymore! Speaking of Caterpillar engines, there are still lots of the larger 2009 Cat engines available for installation in new class 8 trucks. With medium and heavy trucks, the year model of the engine, not the truck, determines what emissions regulations are applicable. So, 2009 engines are still legal. Good luck trying to sell those things......

 

BTW- I have seen the insides of the new 'Boss' 6.2L, and I am impressed! I hope that if Ford ever does consider a gas engine for the F-650, it's that one!

[Bob Rosadini]

In spite of their meagher market share, UD is anouncing a new medium duty model powered by a new in house engine. Also Isuzu has announced a new diesel powered step van chassis as well as the fact that the NPR gas jobs formerly assembled by GM will now be built by Spartan Motors..

 

7M3- is Spartan the "new builder you alluded to the other day?

 

In any case, further activity by people who don't have squat for market share yet they are making committments. And Ford?? Wasted efforts- case in point- Automotive Fleet" mag comes in today's mail and has a supplement attached to it paid for by Ford- 18 pages. NO mention of 650 or 750- and a few words about 550's towing ability.. Len Deluca, Director of Ford Commercial Truck Sales and Marketing has his picture (with a 650/750 in the background-amazed they let that happen) and he is quoted as saying how ...."Ford values its fleet partnerships blah blah. But not one word about 650/750. then they have a five page spread on Ford vehicles- again no mention of medium duty. Now I recignize this is a "Ford Fleet" add and perhaps these people are not the same as Ford Commercial truck guys, but is this not the bullshit tht Mulally was supposed to stop.

 

Wasted effort, wasted marketing dollars, wasted opportunity to get your product in front of people.

 

By the way- anyone check out Hino's web site? Then go to commtruck.ford.com. You can find out all about the pretty seats and the Cat engines that WERE available! Makes you want to run out and sign on the dotted line!

[lfeg]

Bob,

The Hino website is pretty good, up there with International's.

Looking at the Ford website (the section on medium trucks) after looking at either of those just leaves me scratching my my head.

They have nearly two screens on permutations of the 6.7 liter Cummins on the spec list. Same with tires.

To me, it looks as if Ford is aiming at the first time or infrequent buyer of a medium. And in this market there are onesy twosey buyers, but the meat of the market is with fleets, the low end being of at least 5 and up, and the real meat at 10 to 50; including municipal and county service and road departments. These types of buyers want to know what the truck can do for them, how it can lower their cost of doing business, and get the task done. Endless spec sheets do not communicate this.

[7Mary3]

You guys are right, Ford's medium duty marketing effort is weak and missdirected at best. It seems that they are allowing themselves to get crowded out of the big fleet business by International and Freightliner. Could it be the 'Blue Diamond' trucks are indeed stepchildren, unloved by either International or Ford? I would think that if Ford was really serious about class 6 and 7, and does have future plans for that market, they would agressively pursue it now. At the very least to 'hold their place' in it until a more serious effort comes to fruitation.

 

As for the Isuzu-Spartan deal, I was a bit surprised by it! It was not exactly what my 'insiders' were predicting. The deal does make sense though. I think there might be more to it, too. Wait and see.......

[Joe771476]

The federal DOT must have a guy who hates Fords! I was watching a Modern Marvels segment on highways. Any of you guys ever watch that show? They go through everything about everything you can think of! One topic is mushrooms; where they're grown, how they're grown, sorted, packaged, the biggest producers etc. The next segment is about dredgers, the biggest the baddest. They've done segments on cranberries, chocolate candy, saws......you name it! But anyway I digress. This episode on highways followed an episode on mountain roads. They were dicussing highway safety efforts and they showed two different 1980/90

F-800s being rammed into one of those 6 or 7 inch diameter yellow poles you see around in parking lots protecting various machinery such as AC units etc. The front of the trucks wrapped around those poles like bread around a pencil! The pole didnt budge! The truck was DESTROYED! Also caught a glimpse of a Ford cargo fire truck in the segment!