My comparison: 2010 small SUVs

[RichardJensen]

the 1998-2005 model was very popular

As compared to what? Its current also ran status? And I have found no evidence that the Passat ever sold over 100k.

[DC Car Examiner]

As compared to what? Its current also ran status? And I have found no evidence that the Passat ever sold over 100k.

 

VW's old press releases break out individual models only sporadically, but there were several individual months in 2001 and 2002 with 9k Passat sales, which is a pace of 100k+/year. I'm also reading that they sold 84k in 2000 and then saw an unspecified increase after the 2001.5-model update.

 

That's obviously not putting VW among the highest-volume midsize sedans, but right on par with other second-tier (volume-wise) players of the era.

Edited May 16, 2010 by DC Car Examiner

[DC Car Examiner]

Fourth place: Chevrolet Equinox

 

 

When the first-generation Chevrolet Equinox came out in 2005, it was roomy and attractive but overall did not stand out in its class, facing criticism for its slow but thirsty V6 – the only available engine – cumbersome handling, and a cheap-feeling interior.

 

When GM set out to change that for the 2010 model year, the market has responded with strong approval. A new four-cylinder model ties for best-in-class fuel economy and all models sport an attractive new interior design, and the Equinox has become one of the best-sellers in its class, with sales volume seeming to be limited more by supply than demand.

 

That level of demand is a problem for consumers...

 

Continued at link: http://www.examiner.com/x-1017-Autos-Examiner~y2010m5d16-Comparison-review-2010-compact-SUVs-fourth-place

[RichardJensen]

VW's old press releases break out individual models only sporadically, but there were several individual months in 2001 and 2002 with 9k Passat sales, which is a pace of 100k+/year. I'm also reading that they sold 84k in 2000 and then saw an unspecified increase after the 2001.5-model update.

 

That's obviously not putting VW among the highest-volume midsize sedans, but right on par with other second-tier (volume-wise) players of the era.

Of course, 9k per month, without seasonal adjustment is > 100k/year. Factor in seasonal adjustment and it doesn't necessarily carry out that way (for instance, December is typically a big month, January/Feb the two lowest volume months).

 

Also, 84k in 2000 is pretty slim pickins when you consider that there were only two decent midsize sedans in 2000--(the Accord & Camry). Now you have the CamCord, plus entries from Hyundai/KIA, Ford, GM and Nissan that are significantly better than what they had on the market 10 years ago.

 

In fact, I'd be more inclined to agree with your optimism on VW if I didn't have a suspicion that Subaru is picking up the slack in the market for an 'alternative' brand.

 

Subaru -used- to be just like VW, in their unwillingness to adapt product for the US market, but lately that's changed, and I think that, by moving before VW (and perhaps more effectively than VW), they've taken up nearly all the space available in the 'alternative' niche that VW simply owned ten years ago (this is -still- my favorite commercial of all time http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BIOW9fLT9eY --lest you think I have an unreasonable hatred for all things VW)

 

Not that VW has much of a shot at regaining customers it lost ten years ago--or their friends and acquaintances. Yes, VW had quite a bit of cachet among Gen X trendsetters ten years ago, but the brand turned them off with their shoddy shoddy workmanship, and those buyers are as turned-off, collectively, as the baby-boomers that ditched Detroit.

Edited May 16, 2010 by RichardJensen

[DC Car Examiner]

I don't think you hate Volkswagen. I just get the impression that you're not willing to see what it's able to do once its two most important products are all new. I wouldn't describe my position as optimistic either; I'm just more willing to consider the possibility that a lot more people will buy Jettas if the new model isn't mediocre and that a lot more people will buy Passats if the new model isn't ridiculously expensive.

 

Yes, the market is increasingly competitive. But the Passat had been popular and the Jetta still is popular because people felt (or, in the case of the Jetta, inexplicably feel) that they're a step up in terms of luxury from competing cars. If the redesigns don't lose that in an effort to control cost -- always a concern -- there isn't really too much yet that's standing in their way from dominating that substantial niche.

[FordBuyer]

Toyota made a tradeoff with the RAV4: more interior cargo space in exchange for the diminished practicality of the swing-out back hatch. I'm guessing this will be the last generation of RAV4 to do that, but it's not a fault so egregious that it should automatically disqualify a vehicle for everyone. For some, it no doubt will -- I was just the other day warning a city resident looking for a small SUV about how swing-out cargo doors can be problematic in tight quarters. But for others, it's just not that big of a deal.

 

Like you like say...have you ever lived with one for years on end? I have...a 1985 Ford Bronco ll bought new with V6 and 4wd. I learned to hate that swing out spare tire mechanism. Especially if you open the tailgate a lot like I did. A complete deal breaker in these modern times where everyone expects a power remote tailgate. This isn't the 80's anymore where spare was in cargo area or hung from trailgate wtih pivot point on rear fender which tended to rust after black paint flaked off. All spare tires on modern small utes are under the back end of vehicle and if not a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned. Too many good small utes out there without spare tire mounted on tailgate.

[FordBuyer]

I guess I was thinking that your views on its looks are a factor of negligible consequence in the ranking.

 

And if I were to just go by looks, it would be the Equinox in last place anyway -- a car whose styling appeal has always eluded me. (The first-gen looked great.)

 

So if you were looking at houses, and hated the outside of it and the lanscaping, you would waste your time and take a tour of the inside also? Why would a car be any different? If the exterior of a vehicle is offputting, why bother with the interior? The exterior has to be attractive for me to even consider the interior. There are too many nice vehicles out there to bother with those that are ugly. The Sportage exterior screams bottom feeder. The Escape sells so well because of exterior styling, roomy cargo area, great visiblity, SYNC, good drivetrain options, and very good final transaction prices. Just based upon the exterior, you couldn't get me near a Sportage. The name is horrible also.

[RichardJensen]

you're not willing to see what it's able to do once its two most important products are all new.

I have dim hopes that they will be able to improve their products, because I don't think they fully grasp what's -really- wrong with them.

there isn't really too much yet that's standing in their way from dominating that substantial niche.

What niche is that? What 'substantial'?

 

VW is a bit player in midsize, and unless and until they -demonstrate- the remotest level of competence in the segment that's what they always will be.

 

Put this way: I'm not taking anything on faith at VW. Nor can I find a glimmer of hope that they understand what they're doing. In short, it's business as usual at VW: blame the ad agency, shuffle some papers, and pretend that people's attitudes about your cars haven't changed at all.

[FordBuyer]

I have dim hopes that they will be able to improve their products, because I don't think they fully grasp what's -really- wrong with them.

 

What niche is that? What 'substantial'?

 

VW is a bit player in midsize, and unless and until they -demonstrate- the remotest level of competence in the segment that's what they always will be.

 

Put this way: I'm not taking anything on faith at VW. Nor can I find a glimmer of hope that they understand what they're doing. In short, it's business as usual at VW: blame the ad agency, shuffle some papers, and pretend that people's attitudes about your cars haven't changed at all.

 

VW also seemed to think the moving from Troy, MI to New Jersey was somehow going to solve their problems here. It didn't happen.

[RangerM]

It seems to me that much of VWs demise (in the US) came after they dropped the 10 year, 100k mile warranty.

[DC Car Examiner]

So if you were looking at houses, and hated the outside of it and the lanscaping, you would waste your time and take a tour of the inside also? Why would a car be any different? If the exterior of a vehicle is offputting, why bother with the interior? The exterior has to be attractive for me to even consider the interior. There are too many nice vehicles out there to bother with those that are ugly. The Sportage exterior screams bottom feeder. The Escape sells so well because of exterior styling, roomy cargo area, great visiblity, SYNC, good drivetrain options, and very good final transaction prices. Just based upon the exterior, you couldn't get me near a Sportage. The name is horrible also.

 

Well, I don't especially dislike it. Styling is one area anyone can make their own judgment on just by looking at a picture, as you have; sharing my views wouldn't accomplish anything.

[DC Car Examiner]

Like you like say...have you ever lived with one for years on end? I have...a 1985 Ford Bronco ll bought new with V6 and 4wd. I learned to hate that swing out spare tire mechanism. Especially if you open the tailgate a lot like I did. A complete deal breaker in these modern times where everyone expects a power remote tailgate. This isn't the 80's anymore where spare was in cargo area or hung from trailgate wtih pivot point on rear fender which tended to rust after black paint flaked off. All spare tires on modern small utes are under the back end of vehicle and if not a deal breaker as far as I'm concerned. Too many good small utes out there without spare tire mounted on tailgate.

 

I don't think anyone expects a power liftgate in an entry-level compact SUV, and I don't think rust is going to be a huge concern. It's a less convenient design in tight spaces, but hardly a deal-breaker for everyone.

[DC Car Examiner]

I have dim hopes that they will be able to improve their products, because I don't think they fully grasp what's -really- wrong with them.

 

What niche is that? What 'substantial'?

 

VW is a bit player in midsize, and unless and until they -demonstrate- the remotest level of competence in the segment that's what they always will be.

 

Put this way: I'm not taking anything on faith at VW. Nor can I find a glimmer of hope that they understand what they're doing. In short, it's business as usual at VW: blame the ad agency, shuffle some papers, and pretend that people's attitudes about your cars haven't changed at all.

 

The strategy of redesigning the core products for U.S.-specific tastes doesn't say anything to you?

[timmm55]

DC Car Examiner.......why do you post here?

 

I mean other than for self-aggrandizing reasons for your publication? The serialization is annoying. Anyone can read on-line reviews without having a pointless cliffhanger. Cut to the chase already!

 

Do you post your links to other sites? Or are you just here to annoy Ford loyalists?

[FordBuyer]

DC Car Examiner.......why do you post here?

 

I mean other than for self-aggrandizing reasons for your publication? The serialization is annoying. Anyone can read on-line reviews without having a pointless cliffhanger. Cut to the chase already!

 

Do you post your links to other sites? Or are you just here to annoy Ford loyalists?

 

After comparing the Flex to full minivans, he had to know his rating some cheap, rental, bottom feeder Sportage above the top selling Escape would rattle a few cages. And it did. I get the feeling Korean sport utes will get his top ratings before this comparo is over. He doesn't seem to post any rating system, just subjective feelings. Obviously sales numbers, exterior looks, cargo room, outward visibility, 6 speed auto, electric steering are low on his priority list. But color coded door handles are high on his priority list. I guess he has never noticed all the fingernail scratches on color coded door handles that basically have to be rubbed out. And a heavy swing away spare tire swinging into someones stomach is no problem. Or better yet on sloped surface while you are reaching into cargo area some spare tire hitting you in ass while bending over is lots of fun. That happened to me a lot when I owned my Bronco ll as my driveway of my vacation home sloped as it was not paved. I was always putting something in or taking something out. I owned that vehicle for 10 years and hated that swing away tire.

[FordBuyer]

It seems to me that much of VWs demise (in the US) came after they dropped the 10 year, 100k mile warranty.

 

The demise came after they dropped the original Beetle. The Rabbit did OK for awhile, but not a great vehicle. I do like VW's station wagons though. And the GTI is a sharp looking small car, but very expensive. The retro Beetle looked to be a winner, but died over the years.

[sullynd]

Do you post your links to other sites? Or are you just here to annoy Ford loyalists?

 

He also posts at GMI. He's just trying to drive clicks to his "newspaper" site.

[DC Car Examiner]

DC Car Examiner.......why do you post here?

 

I mean other than for self-aggrandizing reasons for your publication? The serialization is annoying. Anyone can read on-line reviews without having a pointless cliffhanger. Cut to the chase already!

 

Do you post your links to other sites? Or are you just here to annoy Ford loyalists?

 

I post here to discuss cars with other people who are interested in cars, the same reason I post at several other forums and blogs.

 

Why do you post in this thread if you don't like it?

[DC Car Examiner]

After comparing the Flex to full minivans, he had to know his rating some cheap, rental, bottom feeder Sportage above the top selling Escape would rattle a few cages. And it did. I get the feeling Korean sport utes will get his top ratings before this comparo is over. He doesn't seem to post any rating system, just subjective feelings. Obviously sales numbers, exterior looks, cargo room, outward visibility, 6 speed auto, electric steering are low on his priority list. But color coded door handles are high on his priority list. I guess he has never noticed all the fingernail scratches on color coded door handles that basically have to be rubbed out. And a heavy swing away spare tire swinging into someones stomach is no problem. Or better yet on sloped surface while you are reaching into cargo area some spare tire hitting you in ass while bending over is lots of fun. That happened to me a lot when I owned my Bronco ll as my driveway of my vacation home sloped as it was not paved. I was always putting something in or taking something out. I owned that vehicle for 10 years and hated that swing away tire.

 

Sales numbers are most definitely not a factor in any of rankings. (If they were, where would that put the Flex?) If someone was just going to buy a car because everyone else was buying it, then there's no need for any information at all. Everyone who wanted a small SUV would buy an Escape, everyone who wanted a compact sedan would buy a Corolla, everyone who wanted to seat seven would buy a Town & Country.

 

I don't factor in my opinion on styling either, as that's not something anyone could need help figuring out on their own from a picture.

 

Cargo room, visibility, transmission (more importantly, what results from the transmission) and steering are indeed important to me, but obviously not the only important characteristics of an automobile. However,, those are all things that don't seem to be a factor in your own ratings ideal, in which no positive characteristics matter if the back hatch doesn't open upward. And door checks have come a long way in the last few decades.

[RichardJensen]

The strategy of redesigning the core products for U.S.-specific tastes doesn't say anything to you?

No.

 

Why?

 

Because this is the attitude about America at VW HQ:

 

U.S. customers look at car size and engine displacement. They won't pay a dollar extra for a Passat over the Camry just because of its finesse and attention to detail

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spied/08q4/2011_volkswagen_jetta_ncs_and_nms_u.s.-market_sedans-spied

 

I'll grant you that "you want (blank)? Well I'll give you (BLANK)!!" worked extremely well, once. But I'm not betting that the "fine, we'll give *you* what *you* want attitude" will work.

 

What I expect, honestly, is a vehicle with material quality and NVH noticeably inferior to other VWs, and probably other midsizers, few powertrain options, aggressively priced optional equipment packages, and amenities marginally more appropriate for the NA driving experience.

 

Why? Because the only thing VW's got going for it right now is materials quality and NVH, and they can't make a car bigger than the Passat for less without sacrificing something there. And I'm going for aggressively priced option packages because I don't think VW can turn a profit on a midsizer priced inline with the rest of the market.

[timmm55]

I post here to discuss cars with other people who are interested in cars, the same reason I post at several other forums and blogs.

 

Why do you post in this thread if you don't like it?

 

I'm posting because I question your credibility.

[RangerM]

The demise came after they dropped the original Beetle. The Rabbit did OK for awhile, but not a great vehicle. I do like VW's station wagons though. And the GTI is a sharp looking small car, but very expensive. The retro Beetle looked to be a winner, but died over the years.

I'm wasn't thinking that far back, but I remember the original Rabbit did quite well, or seemed to where I grew up. There were many of them, and they seemed to be built well enough. They lost something when the Beetle went away in 79, but I don't remember them losing significant sales. The Jetta and Scirroco (sp?) sold ok. I don't remember seeing very many Dashers and Vanagons around.

 

IIRC, VW had a low point around the mid to late 90s. Quality had fallen (marketshare, too?), and in an effort to bring customers back, they implemented the warranty. They got the quality back up again; enough to convince me to buy a "new" Passat in 2001. BUT, that was the last year of the long warranty, and from what I've read, VW quality (overall) has fallen significantly since then. Most of what I've read nowadays says the only car they have that's roughly on par (quality wise) with the competition is the Golf/Rabbit. The rest, for whatever reason, have problems.

[97svtgoin05gt]

Like most others, I've decided to just post once here to declair the topic null and void in my opinion. Once you placed the Kia above the Ford, I'm done. Escape while old is a very solid vehicle and one that hundreds of thousands of people have chosen to make their own. I DO believe sales numbers are a good indicator of how good a vehicle is. People aren't stupid, and you're not going to tell me that all the people who buy the Escape are Ford fan people. It sells well because its a solid entry, an attractive package and its desireable. The Kia however doesn't sell well because their reliability is questionable, the design is weird at best and Kia is generally felt to be a third tier manufacturer. I will agree that their new entry look 100x better but rating this one over the Escape...no way Jose.

[FordBuyer]

Like most others, I've decided to just post once here to declair the topic null and void in my opinion. Once you placed the Kia above the Ford, I'm done. Escape while old is a very solid vehicle and one that hundreds of thousands of people have chosen to make their own. I DO believe sales numbers are a good indicator of how good a vehicle is. People aren't stupid, and you're not going to tell me that all the people who buy the Escape are Ford fan people. It sells well because its a solid entry, an attractive package and its desireable. The Kia however doesn't sell well because their reliability is questionable, the design is weird at best and Kia is generally felt to be a third tier manufacturer. I will agree that their new entry look 100x better but rating this one over the Escape...no way Jose.

 

 

I have nothing against DC...he seems like nice guy. But his comparison tests and rankings are too subjective for me. It's more about his feelings than hard performance data, road noise as in decibels, residual values, quality ratings, and so on. His rankings thus are meaningless. He would be better off just stating which one's he thinks are class competitive and which are not. Just not enough factual data presented to do anything more.

[timmm55]

I have nothing against DC...he seems like nice guy. But his comparison tests and rankings are too subjective for me. It's more about his feelings than hard performance data, road noise as in decibels, residual values, quality ratings, and so on. His rankings thus are meaningless. He would be better off just stating which one's he thinks are class competitive and which are not. Just not enough factual data presented to do anything more.

 

 

I have nothing for or against him. I find his articles much the same as you do. Plus there's the typical auto journalist attitude of "I'm right because I said so." Plus 2, I feel used.......it's just a ploy to have us read their paper, a series yet? Come on, just get to it!