Medium Duty Update

[Bob Rosadini]

I had a conversation with a coup;le of salesmen at a former Ford/Sterling store yesterday (now 550,650,750, Western Star, International) and was told Bluediamond is dead. Was told production is going back to Cautilan (where it was prior to Bluediamond or possibly back to US or Canada. As always, take it with a grain of salt although the demise of Bluediamond shold be a certainty. I mentioned that I thought the V-10 option was a good thing for 650 aND THE COMMENT WAS- "YEAH FOR THREE MONTHS-THEN THERE IS A NEW V-10" I guess that would perhaps be off the 6,2 block?

 

In any case I also was looking at some sales literature-including a cutsheet for 750 tractors! Guess what- no GCW rating listed! I guess the marketing types who put ithe ad together don't know just what a "tractor" is. They need help in a big way. Looking at the rest of the add copy, it is obvious that whoever puts this stuff together has no clue as to what a medium duty truck is as the ad copy screams "pick up truck".

 

Maybr they can lure this guy Conforti back from Hino??

[lfeg]

Bob, like I have seen in many organizations - especially in marketing- those in charge need to seek input from their foot soldiers. Many of these guys are put in positions because of their perceived effectiveness, but in marketing mediums, running ads and promotional literature by someone who actually has to sell them would be very valueable.

 

And interesting on gas engines, a new V10? When I look at the specs on the 6.2 V8, in a suitable tune, it could be a very good gas engine for a medium. A V10 based on it might be a bit much (memories of Hall-Scott haunt me).

[NLPRacing]

I had a conversation with a coup;le of salesmen at a former Ford/Sterling store yesterday (now 550,650,750, Western Star, International) and was told Bluediamond is dead. Was told production is going back to Cautilan (where it was prior to Bluediamond or possibly back to US or Canada. As always, take it with a grain of salt although the demise of Bluediamond shold be a certainty. I mentioned that I thought the V-10 option was a good thing for 650 aND THE COMMENT WAS- "YEAH FOR THREE MONTHS-THEN THERE IS A NEW V-10" I guess that would perhaps be off the 6,2 block?

 

In any case I also was looking at some sales literature-including a cutsheet for 750 tractors! Guess what- no GCW rating listed! I guess the marketing types who put ithe ad together don't know just what a "tractor" is. They need help in a big way. Looking at the rest of the add copy, it is obvious that whoever puts this stuff together has no clue as to what a medium duty truck is as the ad copy screams "pick up truck".

 

Maybr they can lure this guy Conforti back from Hino??

 

I doubt there's a "new" V10 coming. Maybe they are putting 4V heads on the current V10.

[Caseman]

I doubt there's a "new" V10 coming. Maybe they are putting 4V heads on the current V10.

[/quote

 

How about a long-stroke coyote V-10?

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, like I have seen in many organizations - especially in marketing- those in charge need to seek input from their foot soldiers. Many of these guys are put in positions because of their perceived effectiveness, but in marketing mediums, running ads and promotional literature by someone who actually has to sell them would be very valueable.

 

And interesting on gas engines, a new V10? When I look at the specs on the 6.2 V8, in a suitable tune, it could be a very good gas engine for a medium. A V10 based on it might be a bit much (memories of Hall-Scott haunt me).

 

Ifeg- Hall -Scott! Wow-you must be an old guy like me!

 

In any case you are 100% correct on corporate progression of people. "A good manager is a good manager blah- blah". then if a guy (excuse me- person)-has an aptitude in a given field they might get moved out for developmental reasons. With all this talk about getting back into class 8 I just wonder if they have the talent to do it. And if they do, will they be smart enough to capitalize on their grass roots and stick to the vocational truck market. That is truly the future of class eight. Intermodal will make the long haul class 8 the exception rather than the rule. I just heard a Schnieder ad on the radio yesterday for the Schnieder Intermodal division. T

 

the hand writing is on the wall.

[Joe771476]

Hall-Scott? That reminds me of the Continental gas engines we used to have in our American LaFrance fire trucks in the late 60's/early 70's! Whatever happened to the Perkins diesels?

[Bob Rosadini]

Hall-Scott? That reminds me of the Continental gas engines we used to have in our American LaFrance fire trucks in the late 60's/early 70's! Whatever happened to the Perkins diesels?

Joe- Perkins is still a big player in construction equipment.

[packardbob]

Perkins Engine is owned by Caterpillar. Perkins was a parts supplier to CAT for years until they finally bought them out in the late 1990s. Continental is part of Teledyne-Continental Engine Corp.

[theoldwizard]

I had a conversation with a coup;le of salesmen at a former Ford/Sterling store yesterday (now 550,650,750, Western Star, International) and was told Bluediamond is dead.

Ford dropped the LCF awhile ago.

[7Mary3]

From what I gather, the gas V-10 option in the F-650 is being done because there is 1 very major fleet customer wanting such a truck. If there is enough interest (read sales) beyond this one customer, the option may be around for awhile. Otherwise, the gas F-650 could end up like the E-550 cutaway from a few years ago, a one night stand. Notice that Ford has made a sales pitch for the gas F-650, more than a YEAR before it is scheduled for production? As for the V-10, both 2 valve and 3 valve version remain in production, the 2 valve for E series and motorhome chassis, the 3 valve for the Super Duty. I assume the 2 valve will go when the E series is finally dropped (no idea when that will be). My guess is the 3 valve will be replaced by a larger verison of the 6.2L Boss at some point. I don't think another V-10 or a long stroke Coyote are in the cards. Blue Diamond? Rumors were hot a heavy about Blue Diamond's demise, but now I don't think it is going anywhere soon. Reason is that it is doubtful Navistar would continue to supply Ford with chassis, axles, and suspensions if Ford took the 650 and 750 back in house, or farmed it out to another manufacturer. Sure, Ford could design a new 650 and 750 that didn't use the Navistar parts, but that would basically be a new-from-the-ground-up truck, and I think the current sales volume is nowhere near high enough to justify that. Ford would really be going out on a limb on a move like that, and would have to be sure one, medium duty sales will recover soon, and two, Ford would get a decent percentage of that market. The 'double dip' recession that now seems all but imminent could very well put Ford in a cash crunch, and that would very likely curtail spending on projects that do not have the potential of quick ROI. And it is needless to say what a continued recessionary economic environment will do to medium duty sales. I think Navistar at this point will keep Blue Diamond around until they need the plant capacity at Escobedo for their own trucks. Don't forget Blue Diamond is 75% Navistar.

[Joe771476]

Light & Medium Duty mag info:Hino has moved out of the Class 4 & 5 temporarily.They will re-introduce low cab forward diesel and hybrids in 2011. Isuzu has discontinued its heavy F-series. International takes square aim at Ford with its TerraStar class 4 & 5 cab/chassis. It's an oversized odd looking medium cab on a chassis that you would normally see Super Duty cabs on. The Hinos looked just as awkward. Ford should reciprocate and ramp up Kentucky and go full bore into class 8 and destroy Navistar! Navistar is also claiming that competitor's SCR systems can be fooled by using water instead of diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). As someone already has stated, Ford will offer beefed up V-10s in 2012. A new live PTO option is also being offered. I read somewhere else that Ford is offering propane availablilty on Super Duties up to class 5.

[Bob Rosadini]

[quote name='Joe771476' date='04 September 2010 - 12:07 PM' Ford should reciprocate and ramp up Kentucky and go full bore into class 8 and destroy Navistar! Navistar is also claiming that competitor's SCR systems can be fooled by using water instead of diesel exhaust fluid (DEF). As someone already has stated, Ford will offer beefed up V-10s in 2012. A new live PTO option is also being offered. I read somewhere else that Ford is offering propane availablilty on Super Duties up to class 5.

Joe -I'm afraid its wishful thinking about going full bore into class 8. I would settle for a concentrated push into vocational class 8 including daycab tractors-that is truly the future of class 8.

 

As for propane options, that is a good thing and the 650 with the V-10 will also have CNG/Propane options. With all the "green" buzz, it is a good thing to have that option.

 

But they better get their ass in gear as their market percentage continues to erode. I had an April 08 HDT and an April 10 HDT and a June 10 HDT. Looking at market share we have the following:

 

CLASS 7 CLASS 6

 

Hino Ford IH Fliner Hino Ford IH Fliner

3mos ytd 08 2.36 6.51 32.2 32.7 10.01 24.8 32.8 24.7

3mos ytd 10 2.57 5.51 43.5 36.4 9.48 13.78 51.8 19.0

6mos ytd10 2.84 5.37 40.5 37.5 7.67 14.6 52.2 19.0

 

 

Not a pretty picture.

[Joe771476]

Gee Bob, the last time I listed the figures in the last thread we had, Ford was significantly but not comfortably ahead of Hino in class 6 and 7. If you go into page 3,4 or 5 of the last thread we had going which I think I started, I think you'll find those numbers.

[Bob Rosadini]

Gee Bob, the last time I listed the figures in the last thread we had, Ford was significantly but not comfortably ahead of Hino in class 6 and 7. If you go into page 3,4 or 5 of the last thread we had going which I think I started, I think you'll find those numbers.

Ford IS ahead of Hino- but look at the gains fo International and F'liner

[Joe771476]

Bob, here is the reason why Navistar and Freight are ahead of Ford: Customers know they are serious truck builders! Example: International ad in a fire magazine touts their commerical chassis as pre-built for the rigorous duty of fire apparatus. It is not beefed up to meet fire specs! Now here's Ford's ad in the same mag: a two page ad with pictures of generic F-series Super Duties, E-series, and an F-series medium. The ad is titled Ambulance and Rescue. Notice the word "apparatus" missing! None of the trucks in this ad have any real town or city names on the doors; the word "ambulance" appears air-brushed onto the bodies, in fact the truck pictures look air-brushed! I mean I was shocked at the lack of substinence in this ad! Yes Bob, Ford should stay away from the OTR long haul tractor, but go full tilt back into vocational. Even when they came out with the newly designed L/A-series, they wouldn't put a aerodynamic sleeper on! It was those damn box-shaped sleepers thrown on!

[Bob Rosadini]

Bob, here is the reason why Navistar and Freight are ahead of Ford: Customers know they are serious truck builders! Example: International ad in a fire magazine touts their commerical chassis as pre-built for the rigorous duty of fire apparatus. It is not beefed up to meet fire specs! Now here's Ford's ad in the same mag: a two page ad with pictures of generic F-series Super Duties, E-series, and an F-series medium. The ad is titled Ambulance and Rescue. Notice the word "apparatus" missing! None of the trucks in this ad have any real town or city names on the doors; the word "ambulance" appears air-brushed onto the bodies, in fact the truck pictures look air-brushed! I mean I was shocked at the lack of substinence in this ad! Yes Bob, Ford should stay away from the OTR long haul tractor, but go full tilt back into vocational. Even when they came out with the newly designed L/A-series, they wouldn't put a aerodynamic sleeper on! It was those damn box-shaped sleepers thrown on!

Joe, I'm surprised they evan have a specific ad for the fire services-but without seeing it, I get your point. I think they are very lean organizationally with people who truly understand what it takes to market commercial trucks.

[7Mary3]

It is true, most all the Japanese builders except for Hino are walking away from anything larger than class 5. Dodge's lead on Ford in class 4 and 5 continues to grow, we will see if Dodge can hang on to it as 6.7L Powerstroke production ramps up. As for the F-650 and 750, I wonder if Ford's obvious lack of marketing these models is really holding the sales back, or if it is because these trucks are probably the worst mediums you can buy right now. I have 4 in my fleet, and the numbers are not good. They are proving to be in the shop more than 9 year old FL60's with 4 times the miles on them. Our driver's don't like them due to poor visibility and noise/vibration issues, not to mention they are 'down' often. That having been said, the 650 and 750 are attractively priced, and that alone should sell them to those medium customers that are one, price sensitive, and two, not that hard on their vehicles. That's a substantial market!

 

As I said, I don't see 'Blue Diamond' going anywhere now. One of my 'insiders' recently confimed this, and with the economy going to way it is I just don't see Ford or International doing anything right now. I am hearing that some other manufacturers are making some big plans for when business does improve. Look for some very interesting joint ventures and perhaps even a merger or two. I think that Bob Rosadini is right on the mark with his prediction that the long-haul class 8 market will fade with increased competition from rail, and the real growth will be in medium duty, vocational, and regional/short haul. Watch and see certain manufacturers start to postion themselves for that shift in the heavy market.

[Bob Rosadini]

It is true, most all the Japanese builders except for Hino are walking away from anything larger than class 5. Dodge's lead on Ford in class 4 and 5 continues to grow, we will see if Dodge can hang on to it as 6.7L Powerstroke production ramps up. As for the F-650 and 750, I wonder if Ford's obvious lack of marketing these models is really holding the sales back, or if it is because these trucks are probably the worst mediums you can buy right now. I have 4 in my fleet, and the numbers are not good. They are proving to be in the shop more than 9 year old FL60's with 4 times the miles on them. Our driver's don't like them due to poor visibility and noise/vibration issues, not to mention they are 'down' often. That having been said, the 650 and 750 are attractively priced, and that alone should sell them to those medium customers that are one, price sensitive, and two, not that hard on their vehicles. That's a substantial market!

 

 

7m3- Just out of curiosity, what is the common thread if any that brings these things in so often? Is it Cat or Power Stroke related? Considering its an International chassis, and the power train is the same that you would get in any assembled truck, that leads me to belief it is either of those two-now defunct- engine options.

 

As far as sheet metal, accessory issues,- as there are literally hundreds of thousands of 250-550 applications running around out there I would think that commonality of components in those trucks should have proved them in service. While some would argue that a medium duty is more stressful on components than say a 10,000 lb. pick up, I would venture to say that the typical 350/450/550 that is employed as a construction service truck gets more than its share of off highway abuse.

[7Mary3]

7m3- Just out of curiosity, what is the common thread if any that brings these things in so often? Is it Cat or Power Stroke related? Considering its an International chassis, and the power train is the same that you would get in any assembled truck, that leads me to belief it is either of those two-now defunct- engine options..............

 

I have 3 with Cummins, 1 with a Cat. By far the biggest problem is electrical issues. Even though the International 4400's multiplexed electrical system was troublesome, the Ford system on the 650 and 750 is also a problem. Making matters worse is the service information for these trucks is not the greatest, so locating shorts and opens can really be time consuming. I see a lot of chafed-through harnesses and intermittant blown fuses. We had a no-start on the Cat powered one once and it turned out to be a blown fuse for the engine ECM. The fuse was in a cheap in-line holder located (in all places) the battery box! Come to find out International was using the same design on some school bus chassis, and had to recall them for stalling issues. Guess someone forgot to tell Ford. We get a lot of driver complaints about excessive noise, and often you will find bolts have vibrated loose in the battery boxes, fuel tanks, and exhaust system. A/C system leaks are pretty common, but easily fixed. We had a number of issues with the transfer pumps on the Cummins powered units. I chalk that one up to Cummins, they mounted the pump behind the engine ECM on the side of the block, and the pumps got too hot. Cummins has a nice kit to relocate the pump- problem solved. We have found if you repeatedly slam the doors close with the windows rolled up the back window will pop out (it is bonded on the pickups). Buying parts for these trucks is always an adventure, it seems like neither Ford nor International wants to deal with them.

[Bob Rosadini]

I have 3 with Cummins, 1 with a Cat. By far the biggest problem is electrical issues. Even though the International 4400's multiplexed electrical system was troublesome, the Ford system on the 650 and 750 is also a problem. Making matters worse is the service information for these trucks is not the greatest, so locating shorts and opens can really be time consuming. I see a lot of chafed-through harnesses and intermittant blown fuses. We had a no-start on the Cat powered one once and it turned out to be a blown fuse for the engine ECM. The fuse was in a cheap in-line holder located (in all places) the battery box! Come to find out International was using the same design on some school bus chassis, and had to recall them for stalling issues. Guess someone forgot to tell Ford. We get a lot of driver complaints about excessive noise, and often you will find bolts have vibrated loose in the battery boxes, fuel tanks, and exhaust system. A/C system leaks are pretty common, but easily fixed. We had a number of issues with the transfer pumps on the Cummins powered units. I chalk that one up to Cummins, they mounted the pump behind the engine ECM on the side of the block, and the pumps got too hot. Cummins has a nice kit to relocate the pump- problem solved. We have found if you repeatedly slam the doors close with the windows rolled up the back window will pop out (it is bonded on the pickups). Buying parts for these trucks is always an adventure, it seems like neither Ford nor International wants to deal with them.

thx- I was at a dealership last week that is both Navistar and Ford. I did a quick comparison of two long wheel base chassis-a 750 and a 4400. As you know, everything chassis wise looked the same-down to the part nos. on the spring hangars. This International clearly had a better paint job-obviously a US built truck vs the Escobido Ford. It also had minor "improvements" such that wiring/airline runs along the chassis were encased in the typical plastic looms-at least I think that is better.

 

Based on what you are saying 7m, sounds like QC is an issue at Escobido- in particular if Navistar learned a lesson as you pointed out on the fuse holder issue, makes you wonder if that "lesson was passed on to their Escobedo plant. In any case my source says bluediamond is history and Ford is looking at other options-including Canada and the US. But they better get their act together quick as the market share slide continues IMO.

[Joe771476]

I wonder if Navistar is or was not putting their heart and soul into the Ford branded mediums if you get my drift.

[Bob Rosadini]

I wonder if Navistar is or was not putting their heart and soul into the Ford branded mediums if you get my drift.

My guess Joe is that Navistar views this as a deal that would lower their own manufacturing cost through improved plant utilization. I would not think they would have any marketing or design say. Ford tells them what they want and Navistar builds it. If anyone has any responsibility for breathing heart and soul into these trucks, its Ford.

[7Mary3]

My guess Joe is that Navistar views this as a deal that would lower their own manufacturing cost through improved plant utilization. I would not think they would have any marketing or design say. Ford tells them what they want and Navistar builds it. If anyone has any responsibility for breathing heart and soul into these trucks, its Ford.

 

That's about the way I understand it. Ford told International they wanted a medium duty truck that used a Super Duty cab, and International obliged. International says they are a supplier to Ford, but they do own 75% of Blue Diamond. I guess that means the plant more than anything. I have been told that there is no future development work going on at Blue Diamond, and if that's true it means Blue Diamond will come to an end someday. But, I don't think that someday will be anytime soon.

[Joe771476]

Remember all the green GMC Asplundh tree trucks you use to see? Well now they're white Sterlings and Internationals.

[7Mary3]

Remember all the green GMC Asplundh tree trucks you use to see? Well now they're white Sterlings and Internationals.

 

In my area, they are still primarily orange and black GMC's. Looks like they bought a load of Topkicks before they stopped building them. Never seen a Asplundh Sterling, and since those have been out of production for two years now I don't expect I'll be seeing many. And that brings me to another point: I wonder how much the discontinuing of Stering has affected the sales of Ford F-650's and 750's. Most all the Sterling dealers in my area were also selling Ford mediums.