jasonj80 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Didn't see this mentioned on here yet. Video Link Job 1 for the 2013 Explorer is at the end of Feb 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Nice to see continual updates on this hot selling utility. Meanwhile, GM has let the Lambda trio carry through several years with nary an update (except the addition of the "Denali" Acadia). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Nice to see continual updates on this hot selling utility. Meanwhile, GM has let the Lambda trio carry through several years with nary an update (except the addition of the "Denali" Acadia). And the front center mounted airbag! My link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 And the front center mounted airbag! My link Nope. The new airbag doesn't come along until the MCE'd Lambdas debut for the 2013 model year, 6 years after they first hit the market (5 for the Traverse). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Nope. The new airbag doesn't come along until the MCE'd Lambdas debut for the 2013 model year, 6 years after they first hit the market (5 for the Traverse). Some things never change at GM. It would take a lot of changes to make any of the Lambdas even palatable in my opinion. They are overly cheap feeling for the price they demand, especially when compared to the Explorer, Highlander, or CX-9. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The Explorer exists because of the Lambdas, they are the leaders in this segment and Ford is still ironing out some very rough edges on the new Explorer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The Explorer exists because of the Lambdas, they are the leaders in this segment and Ford is still ironing out some very rough edges on the new Explorer. Care to qualify that one? They sell more (averaging about 6,000 from each of the 3 versions), but they're not class leading in any metric I can think of beyond raw sales numbers. And, on that point... October, 2011, GM sold 17,640 Lambdas, averaging 5,880 per brand / model, October, 2011, Ford sold 14,266 D3 utilities, averaging 7,133 per brand and 4,755 per model. Not bad considering 2 of the 3 D3's are regarded as "failures". The Lambdas were competitive when they were released. They've been eclipsed by the competition and GM hasn't cared to do much about it. 6 years before a simple MCE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Care to qualify that one? They sell more (averaging about 6,000 from each of the 3 versions), but they're not class leading in any metric I can think of beyond raw sales numbers. And, on that point... October, 2011, GM sold 17,640 Lambdas, averaging 5,880 per brand / model, October, 2011, Ford sold 14,266 D3 utilities, averaging 7,133 per brand and 4,755 per model. Not bad considering 2 of the 3 D3's are regarded as "failures". The Lambdas were competitive when they were released. They've been eclipsed by the competition and GM hasn't cared to do much about it. 6 years before a simple MCE? I was griping for years while GM took this cake from Ford, it was a recipe for obvious success but it took them 5 years to finally get their ass on the ball (they had the friggin chassis since 2005!). GM was WAAAAAY out ahead of them while they dicked around on the Freestyle/TaurusX/Flex and let the Explorer classic just loose market. I still don't understand why it took them so long to greenlight a D3/4 Explorer. The Lambdas are awesome products that need an MCE. The Explorer is a success (what a shocker huh Ford?), but you need to look at the YTD sales on all of those vehicles. Also, it's a fallacy to group Ford's D3/4 utilities together when all share substantial engineering difference in their top hats (and chassis), unlike the lambdas which are skin jobs. Still, the Explorer is the most appealing option right now because it features the latest tech and design. I would buy the Explorer before I buy a Lambda (although I wouldn't buy an Explorer at all). Edited November 10, 2011 by BORG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I was griping for years while GM took this cake from Ford, it was a recipe for obvious success but it took them 5 years to finally get their ass on the ball (they had the friggin chassis since 2005!). GM was WAAAAAY out ahead of them while they dicked around on the Freestyle/TaurusX/Flex and let the Explorer classic just loose market. I still don't understand why it took them so long to greenlight a D3/4 Explorer. The Lambdas are awesome products that need an MCE. The Explorer is a success (what a shocker huh Ford?), but you need to look at the YTD sales on all of those vehicles. Also, it's a fallacy to group Ford's D3/4 utilities together when all share substantially engineering difference in their top hats (and chassis), unlike the lambdas which are skin jobs. Still, the Explorer is the most appealing option right now because it features the latest tech and design. I would buy the Explorer before I buy a Lambda (although I wouldn't buy an Explorer at all). No matter how good the Explorer is or isn't, the Explorer no longer hits the sweet spot of the market. The Escape does, and that is why the success of the new Escape is so important. I would label the debut of the Escape and later the Fusion as Ford's most important new intros in quite some time save F-Series. Ths success of Ford rides on the Escape and Fusion. The new Explorer and Focus are icing on the cake for Ford and important, but Escape, Fusion, and F-Series are the cake for Ford. I'm keeping my fingers crossed the new Escape and Fusion are huge homeruns for Ford. Ford can't afford to hit only a double with these two. Ford can hit a double with Explorer and still do well. We will know more about how well Explorer is doing next year to see if sales hold up and hopefully do even better as in year to year sales gains. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) No matter how good the Explorer is or isn't, the Explorer no longer hits the sweet spot of the market. The Escape does, and that is why the success of the new Escape is so important. I would label the debut of the Escape and later the Fusion as Ford's most important new intros in quite some time save F-Series. Ths success of Ford rides on the Escape and Fusion. The new Explorer and Focus are icing on the cake for Ford and important, but Escape, Fusion, and F-Series are the cake for Ford. I'm keeping my fingers crossed the new Escape and Fusion are huge homeruns for Ford. Ford can't afford to hit only a double with these two. Ford can hit a double with Explorer and still do well. We will know more about how well Explorer is doing next year to see if sales hold up and hopefully do even better as in year to year sales gains. The sweet spot meaning highest number of sales? Well obviously a cheaper/smaller vehicle will have higher sales...but that isn't to say it's then more valuable to the company just because it fills up marketshare. Margins are typically tighter on vehicles that are this value driven. The Escape is of course very important, but no more important than Explorer and Edge. Edited November 10, 2011 by BORG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The sweet spot meaning highest number of sales? Well obviously a cheaper/smaller vehicle will have higher sales...but that isn't to say it's then more valuable to the company just because it fills up marketshare. Margins are typically tighter on vehicles that are this value driven. The Escape is of course very important, but no more important than Explorer and Edge. Of course I'm assuming the new Escape and Fusion will sell with minimal incentives, more content and features meaning higher ATP's and profits for Ford. Small utes, mid sized cars, and pickups offer the highest volumes sales wise and thus highest profits if you get it right which Ford has been doing last few years or so. Especially if buyers flock to the most expensive trim models as they seem to be doing more of as of late. Maybe it's because people aren't buying new homes, appliances, furniture, or for that matter putting big money into present home decreasing in value. So they treat themselves to that Limited or Titanium model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I was griping for years while GM took this cake from Ford, it was a recipe for obvious success but it took them 5 years to finally get their ass on the ball (they had the friggin chassis since 2005!). GM was WAAAAAY out ahead of them while they dicked around on the Freestyle/TaurusX/Flex and let the Explorer classic just loose market. I still don't understand why it took them so long to greenlight a D3/4 Explorer. The Lambdas are awesome products that need an MCE. What are you talking about? The Freestyle was out in 2005...2 years before the Lamba triplets came out. Obliviously it and the Taurus X didn't set the market on fire..but then again most full sized CUV's haven't till recently. I wouldn't say they are waaaaayy ahead of them...Its been what 3-4 years since the Lambas launched and the Unibody Explorer did? Not to mention that Ford already had 2 products that covered that market during that time period. As for the Explorer not moving to a unibody platform sooner....lots of reasons...biggest is just timing and money...Let see...have to find new product for St. Louis, tool up Chicago (which just got retooling to the new 2010 Taurus), the closing out of the Taurus X production (which the Explorer really replaced, not the BOF model)..etc etc...what would Ford really gained launching the Explorer a year or two earlier? I drove a Traverse a couple months ago...and its a decent product for GM, but I wasn't that impressed by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Of course I'm assuming the new Escape and Fusion will sell with minimal incentives, more content and features meaning higher ATP's and profits for Ford. Small utes, mid sized cars, and pickups offer the highest volumes sales wise and thus highest profits if you get it right which Ford has been doing last few years or so. Especially if buyers flock to the most expensive trim models as they seem to be doing more of as of late. Maybe it's because people aren't buying new homes, appliances, furniture, or for that matter putting big money into present home decreasing in value. So they treat themselves to that Limited or Titanium model. I'm not counting on the Escape maintaining those huge numbers, but I am counting on an Escape to sell higher-trim models on desirability. I think the current Escape is a good value in XLT trim, but bumping it up to Limited pricing and the Escape's age and chassis simplicity (drum brakes anybody?) makes it harder to justify when you can go buy a better equipped and much more modern Equinox for the same money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) What are you talking about? The Freestyle was out in 2005...2 years before the Lamba triplets came out. Obliviously it and the Taurus X didn't set the market on fire..but then again most full sized CUV's haven't till recently. I wouldn't say they are waaaaayy ahead of them...Its been what 3-4 years since the Lambas launched and the Unibody Explorer did? Not to mention that Ford already had 2 products that covered that market during that time period. As for the Explorer not moving to a unibody platform sooner....lots of reasons...biggest is just timing and money...Let see...have to find new product for St. Louis, tool up Chicago (which just got retooling to the new 2010 Taurus), the closing out of the Taurus X production (which the Explorer really replaced, not the BOF model)..etc etc...what would Ford really gained launching the Explorer a year or two earlier? I drove a Traverse a couple months ago...and its a decent product for GM, but I wasn't that impressed by it. Did you not read my post? And do you not remember the complete sales failure of the Freestyle/TuaursX/Flex? Ford completely misunderstood the market when they produced the Freestyle, essentially a station wagon with theater seating and no style. It was a complete and utter flop, while Lambdas were an instant overnight success (like the Explorer would become 6 years later). Edited November 10, 2011 by BORG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stpatrick90 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 The Explorer exists because of the Lambdas, they are the leaders in this segment and Ford is still ironing out some very rough edges on the new Explorer. I disagree wholeheartedly with this assertion. The Lambdas are not leaders in any sense of the word. I recently went out and compared most 3-Row CUVs when I bought my Explorer. Given this I feel that the Highlander, CX-9, Explorer, Flex and Durango fulfill the best blend of dynamics, comfort, quality, and refinement. In my opinion the Lambdas drive much too like an early 2000s Grand Caravan especially relative to its competitive set; also the craftsmanship of the Lambdas was lacking in many measures, they actually reminded me of my 2002 Sable I had in this respect. I know that many of those measures are subjective and that overall in the grand scheme of things my opinion means nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 were an instant overnight success (like the Explorer would become 6 years later). I'd like to know where you get your math from: GMC Acadia December 2006 New Explorer: November/December 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 BORG, calling the Lambda's "skin jobs" isn't quite accurate. The Lambda program was developed to encompass 4 vehicles and 2 unique tophats (Acadia/Outlook and Traverse/Enclave), while a 5th unique version for Cadillac was a late add and has been started and stopped a few times since then. Acadia/Outlook were badge engineered, differientiated by only grille inserts, trim, light housings, and interior bits. However, despite sharing a roofline, the Enclave and Traverse are quite different, sharing only the roofline and perhaps the rear window. In typical GM fashion, they wasted money developing 4 mediocre versions of the same product instead of trying to make one outstanding crossover. Toyota sells a ton of Corollas... is that the segment leader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I'm not counting on the Escape maintaining those huge numbers, but I am counting on an Escape to sell higher-trim models on desirability. I think the current Escape is a good value in XLT trim, but bumping it up to Limited pricing and the Escape's age and chassis simplicity (drum brakes anybody?) makes it harder to justify when you can go buy a better equipped and much more modern Equinox for the same money. With LAP going to 3 shifts sometime next year, Ford better sell as many or clost to. I hope the new Escape XLT is about same price as present one. If Ford does that and still offers decent content, I don't see why Escape couldn't meet present sales. I expect Ford to charge more for new Limited model as there will be more features and content in general probably. I would assume Ford buyers would be willing to spend more on Escape Limited since it's all new and will have more features and offer better fuel mileage. Now if Ford charges close to $30,000 for Escape in XLT trim with minimal features, then yeah I believe Ford will have trouble selling over 200,000 Escapes/year. Sticker shock is usually not good unless the vehicle is really special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) I'd like to know where you get your math from: GMC Acadia December 2006 New Explorer: November/December 2010 I mean 6-years after the Freestyle debut. Edited November 10, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) BORG, calling the Lambda's "skin jobs" isn't quite accurate. The Lambda program was developed to encompass 4 vehicles and 2 unique tophats (Acadia/Outlook and Traverse/Enclave), while a 5th unique version for Cadillac was a late add and has been started and stopped a few times since then. Acadia/Outlook were badge engineered, differientiated by only grille inserts, trim, light housings, and interior bits. However, despite sharing a roofline, the Enclave and Traverse are quite different, sharing only the roofline and perhaps the rear window. In typical GM fashion, they wasted money developing 4 mediocre versions of the same product instead of trying to make one outstanding crossover. Toyota sells a ton of Corollas... is that the segment leader? In what way are they mediocre? They were innovative for their time and accurately targeted the market and have continued to grow since their introduction. And if sales leadership isn't a good barometer, what about critical success? The Explorer afterall is often ranked behind the Traverse by the major autorags, not just Motor Trend. And lets not forget the Explorer exists because of those cars, Ford had other plans while GM was working on the Lambdas...and Ford's solution was a failure. Certainly they are in need of updates, but the Lambdas have done good. But of course Ford found success in Midsize (Edge) and compact (Escape) which GM has just figured out. And it looks like Explorer has a good chance of permanently securing the majority share of full-size CUV market with just one nameplate. Edited November 10, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) The sweet spot meaning highest number of sales? Well obviously a cheaper/smaller vehicle will have higher sales... Really? And what again is Ford's best selling vehicle? Not small nor cheap. Just shows if you make a great product, size and cost aren't always an issue. Edited November 10, 2011 by V8-X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) Really? And what again is Ford's best selling vehicle? Not small nor cheap. Just shows if you make a great product, size and cost aren't always an issue. Go back and read the context of that argument and get back to me. Edited November 10, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Go back and read the context of that argument and get back to me. I did. So with your thought process, why is Ford abandoning the Ranger, if a cheaper/smaller vehicle will have higher sales? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 (edited) I did. So with your thought process, why is Ford abandoning the Ranger, if a cheaper/smaller vehicle will have higher sales? And in what way does the Ranger equate to the SUV market? Once again, the conversation was about the volume of smaller/cheaper SUVs vs expensive ones (Escape vs Explorer). Edited November 10, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 In what way are they mediocre? They were innovative for their time and accurately targeted the market and have continued to grow since their introduction. And if sales leadership isn't a good barometer, what about critical success? The Explorer afterall is often ranked behind the Traverse by the major autorags, not just Motor Trend. And lets not forget the Explorer exists because of those cars, Ford had other plans while GM was working on the Lambdas...and Ford's solution was a failure. Certainly they are in need of updates, but the Lambdas have done good. But of course Ford found success in Midsize (Edge) and compact (Escape) which GM has just figured out. And it looks like Explorer has a good chance of permanently securing the majority share of full-size CUV market with just one nameplate. They came to market with mediocre interior materials and craftsmanship, mediocre quality (there are still a handful of issues), and mediocre performance and economy. Don't get me wrong, we actually considered an Acadia before landing on our Escape (we talked ourselves out of "needing" something that big), but the Lambdas are solidly midpack products in most metrics. They weren't particularly innovative, either, just following GM's tradition of taking what other brands find success with (Pilot and Highlander, namely) and building something larger and cheaper. The Lambdas were good in 2006. They have since been outclassed, and GM hasn't been too motivated to do something about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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