Lincoln's Renaissance Needs a Jump?

[FordBuyer]

If they are sustainably making money selling "pretty darn good" cars instead of "great" ones, what does it matter? And by who's measure do we define "great" anyway?

Isnt't that what several other "luxury" brands have been doing for decades now?

 

"Bubububu but Ford isn't like Lexus because it doesn't have an LS or GS..."

 

Who cares? The guy buying the ES or RX sure doesn't.

 

 

 

How many freaking times does this same thread need to repeat itself with different titles while we wait for new Lincoln product? We all know what's coming. We all pretty much know when it's coming also. Why the same tired threads re-hashing the same crap in the meantime?

 

Wow, I guess if you say Lincoln is making "profit" enough, it somehow become true. How the hell is MKS returning much in profit sellng 800 vehicles/month with lots of money on hood, at least around here. Or 600 MKT's/month with probably even more money on hood. Or 600 Navigators/month? And don't give me that stuff about everyone is buying gussied up model for $50,000+. We don't know that. The wake up call every month is Lincoln sales, they are abysmal no matter how blissful one is. Sure, MKZ sales should be good for 6-12 months as MKS sales were decent in the first year. I will stick with the consensus of auto reviewers...overall the MKZ is underwhelming and disappointing if it represents the new Lincoln Motor Company using base Ford motors.

[FordBuyer]

I'm sure there are a great many people out there who don't think they are.

 

I thnk the F-150 and Fusion are great vehicles...the sales and sustainability of them prove it. And the consensus of auto reviewers are that they are great vehicles overall. If you crossshop them, they are more than competitive.

[NickF1011]

Wow, I guess if you say Lincoln is making "profit" enough, it somehow become true.

We say it until Ford says otherwise, which thus far, they haven't.

 

I will stick with the consensus of auto reviewers...overall the MKZ is underwhelming and disappointing if it represents the new Lincoln Motor Company using base Ford motors.

It represents the first step. A point you and BORG continually seem to miss. But I expect nothing less from you in your endless quest to cast anything Lincoln in a negative light these days.

[NickF1011]

I thnk the F-150 and Fusion are great vehicles...the sales and sustainability of them prove it. And the consensus of auto reviewers are that they are great vehicles overall. If you crossshop them, they are more than competitive.

Chrysler sold a lot of K-cars. Does that make them "great"?

[akirby]

Wow, I guess if you say Lincoln is making "profit" enough, it somehow become true. How the hell is MKS returning much in profit sellng 800 vehicles/month with lots of money on hood, at least around here. Or 600 MKT's/month with probably even more money on hood. Or 600 Navigators/month? And don't give me that stuff about everyone is buying gussied up model for $50,000+. We don't know that. The wake up call every month is Lincoln sales, they are abysmal no matter how blissful one is. Sure, MKZ sales should be good for 6-12 months as MKS sales were decent in the first year. I will stick with the consensus of auto reviewers...overall the MKZ is underwhelming and disappointing if it represents the new Lincoln Motor Company using base Ford motors.

 

Explain why the 2.0T in the MkZ is bad but the SAME FREAKIN' ENGINE in the Jag XF and Audi A6 which both have LESS POWER is somehow OK or STFU.

[FordBuyer]

Chrysler sold a lot of K-cars. Does that make them "great"?

 

Wow, you just like to argue, don't you. Now we are arguing over Fusion and F-150 being great vehicles. Not sure how you missed consensus of reviewers and crossshopping numbers of all kinds to determine how competitive it was. Ford isn't selling 28,000 Fusions/month and 60,000 F-Series/month because of initial flurry of A/Z plan folks looking at Ford only. Those sales are sustainable, and Ford really keeps those vehicles current and competitive. No messing around there. Maybe a lot of the Lincoln problem is because the Fusion and Taurus are sooooooo GOOD, it's hard to improve on a Ford vehicle that is that good making Lincoln as irrelevant as its sales show. If I can get a Fusion that good for $26,000 or so, you have to be crazy to pay at least $36,000 for MKZ with same drivetrain and a few useless features like buzzing steering wheel and push button gear selector.

[akirby]

Wow, you just like to argue, don't you. Now we are arguing over Fusion and F-150 being great vehicles. Not sure how you missed consensus of reviewers and crossshopping numbers of all kinds to determine how competitive it was. Ford isn't selling 28,000 Fusions/month and 60,000 F-Series/month because of initial flurry of A/Z plan folks looking at Ford only. Those sales are sustainable, and Ford really keeps those vehicles current and competitive. No messing around there. Maybe a lot of the Lincoln problem is because the Fusion and Taurus are sooooooo GOOD, it's hard to improve on a Ford vehicle that is that good making Lincoln as irrelevant as its sales show. If I can get a Fusion that good for $26,000 or so, you have to be crazy to pay at least $36,000 for MKZ with same drivetrain and a few useless features like buzzing steering wheel and push button gear selector.

 

Explain why the 2.0T in the MkZ is bad but the SAME FREAKIN' ENGINE in the Jag XF and Audi A6 which both have LESS POWER and COST MORE is somehow OK or STFU.

Edited April 1, 2013 by akirby

[SoonerLS]

Wow, you just like to argue, don't you.

Hello, pot, this is the kettle...

[NickF1011]

Wow, you just like to argue, don't you. Now we are arguing over Fusion and F-150 being great vehicles. Not sure how you missed consensus of reviewers and crossshopping numbers of all kinds to determine how competitive it was. Ford isn't selling 28,000 Fusions/month and 60,000 F-Series/month because of initial flurry of A/Z plan folks looking at Ford only. Those sales are sustainable, and Ford really keeps those vehicles current and competitive. No messing around there. Maybe a lot of the Lincoln problem is because the Fusion and Taurus are sooooooo GOOD, it's hard to improve on a Ford vehicle that is that good making Lincoln as irrelevant as its sales show.

Reviews don't equal sales. And sales don't equal greatness. That was my point of mentioning the K-car.

 

None of us know the "sustainability" of MKZ sales. It has only been widely available for ONE MONTH. Geesh.

If I can get a Fusion that good for $26,000 or so, you have to be crazy to pay at least $36,000 for MKZ with same drivetrain and a few useless features like buzzing steering wheel and push button gear selector.

...says the guy driving a 2002 Taurus. Power windows are probably a "useless feature" you could live without too.

[FordBuyer]

Reviews don't equal sales. And sales don't equal greatness. That was my point of mentioning the K-car.

 

None of us know the "sustainability" of MKZ sales. It has only been widely available for ONE MONTH. Geesh.

 

...says the guy driving a 2002 Taurus. Power windows are probably a "useless feature" you could live without too.

 

I'll say this........the past generation MKZ sold well as the MKZ hybrid sold in 1200-1500 range/month really helping MKZ sales overall even though IMO the MKZ was a lame effort in most ways. The new MKZ is a better vehicle, more distinctive styling, and again the hybrid model will really help overall sales. And I will also say this.....Kirby had chance to choose either Fusion Titanium or new MKZ, and he chose the Fusion. Good choice as he knew the extra money for MKZ wasn't really worth it in the great scheme of things. That extra $10,000 would give me a nice winter vacation for the next five years. The Fusion is just toooooooo good to even consider the MKZ for most astute buyers. And a Fusion ST will add an exclamation point to it. Again, Ford doesn't have a clue on how to create and market luxury vehicles.

[BORG]

I'll say this........the past generation MKZ sold well as the MKZ hybrid sold in 1200-1500 range/month really helping MKZ sales overall even though IMO the MKZ was a lame effort in most ways. The new MKZ is a better vehicle, more distinctive styling, and again the hybrid model will really help overall sales. And I will also say this.....Kirby had chance to choose either Fusion Titanium or new MKZ, and he chose the Fusion. Good choice as he knew the extra money for MKZ wasn't really worth it in the great scheme of things. That extra $10,000 would give me a nice winter vacation for the next five years. The Fusion is just toooooooo good to even consider the MKZ for most astute buyers. And a Fusion ST will add an exclamation point to it. Again, Ford doesn't have a clue on how to create and market luxury vehicles.

The MKZ sold well because they were HEAVILY incentivized, they were giving them away to former Mercury customers with at least $5,500 on the hood with early lease termination deals of up to 6-months. That's why I would find similar volume for the new MKZ to be an improvement.

Edited April 1, 2013 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

Ford's attention span is WAY too short.

So says the person who has made up his mind about things after 90 days.

[BORG]

So says the person who has made up his mind about things after 90 days.

 

I've made up my mind on what now?

[FordBuyer]

The MKZ sold well because they were HEAVILY incentivized, they were giving them away to former Mercury customers. That's why I would find similar volume for the new MKZ to be an improvement.

 

Oh Oh Borg...according to the Lincoln loyalty crowd on here, Lincoln makes profit for the parent company and Lincoln doesn't get into big incentives. I guess they haven't been around here and see the money Ford throws on hood to move even 800 MKS's/month. No way in hell would I pay $36,000 for past generation MKZ when the Fusion was far better vehicle for the money. And again, that is the problem Ford has with Lincoln....Ford models are too good to make Lincoln viable. It's either spend billons like Cadillac to get somewhat relevant, or do what Ford is doing with Lincoln and become totally irrelevant. So after seeing what Ford is doing with latest Lincoln models, I vote for dumping it and concentrating totally on Titanium models with latest and greatest features like adjustable suspension and PDK type trans. No more building and marketing ripoff vehicles.

[RichardJensen]

I've made up my mind on what now?

How this is all going to play out.

[RichardJensen]

or do what Ford is doing with Lincoln and become totally irrelevant

 

What are your qualifications to make this kind of statement?

[NickF1011]

Good choice as he knew the extra money for MKZ wasn't really worth it in the great scheme of things.

For many buyers, you are right. But that's true of any luxury car. Vehicle purchases are emotional. If it purely came down to logic, nobody would ever buy a new vehicle, ever, and luxury vehicles simply would not exist, as they are, by their very nature, unnecessary and impractical.

 

Oh Oh Borg...according to the Lincoln loyalty crowd on here, Lincoln makes profit for the parent company and Lincoln doesn't get into big incentives.

There are often hefty incentives on the F-series also. Would you assert that Ford is losing money on them? Fact is, the last time Ford spoke of Lincoln's financial position, they were profitable. It should be assumed that remains the case in the absense of Ford saying anything to the contrary.

[FordBuyer]

For many buyers, you are right. But that's true of any luxury car. Vehicle purchases are emotional. If it purely came down to logic, nobody would ever buy a new vehicle, ever, and luxury vehicles simply would not exist, as they are, by their very nature, unnecessary and impractical.

 

But that is not the case with BMW, and MB. They are luxury makers only. So it's real hard to market a luxury division when you make exceptional, lower priced vehicles like Ford does in particular with Titanium. Titanium makes Lincoln that much harder to pull off when it was already super difficult job. Somehow Lexus pulled it off, but verdict is still out on Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Lincoln is way behind needing a miracle. That is why I'm on the record for getting rid of Buick, although recent sales of Buick are surprising, but doubt if they are sustainable with Regal and LaCrosse sales struggling. In fact, I would argue that Lincoln hurts Titanium more than helps since certain popular options like adjustable suspension are for Lincoln only depriving Titanium owners of this fine feature. And if and when Ford comes out with Fusion ST, they have to think hard and long about offering CCD to this sporty model when it's exclusive to Lincoln only. Same with heated and cooled seats. Lincoln creates more vexing problems for Ford than solves. And it's not relevant to Ford sales or profits. It's just there taking up time and money as in extending aid to Lincoln dealerhsip owners and distractions to far more important Titanium models.

[NickF1011]

But that is not the case with BMW, and MB.

Of course it's still the case! People don't have to buy a BMW or MB. They can go spend far less on something else and get many of the same features. That would obviously be the purely logical decision. They simply don't want to.

It's just there taking up time and money as in extending aid to Lincoln dealerhsip owners and distractions to far more important Titanium models.

Which way do you want it, FB? Do you want Ford to dump billions of dollars from other programs into Lincoln to revive it or do you want them to operate as a functional, profitable unit of Ford Motor Company? It just doesn't work both ways. Ford is going to let Lincoln operate as long as it pays its own way. If it no longer does that, then I would fully expect them to go away. So no, they aren't a "distraction" from anything.

Edited April 1, 2013 by NickF1011

[FordBuyer]

 

 

There are often hefty incentives on the F-series also. Would you assert that Ford is losing money on them? Fact is, the last time Ford spoke of Lincoln's financial position, they were profitable. It should be assumed that remains the case in the absense of Ford saying anything to the contrary.

 

I own Ford stock and get their annual report along with pages and pages of analysis from my full service financial investment company. No where do I see a separate balance sheet for Lincoln division only. With financial aid to Lincoln dealers, abritration to them also to buy them out, Super Bowl ad money, and on and on, I doubt very much if Lincoln is contributing a penny to Ford profits. Only distractions and abysmal sales figures every month. On top of that they are investing at least $1 billion on future Lincolns that come with no guarantee of future sales numbers. With that being said, a new MKC could probably get Lincoln sales up close to 100,000/year, but is even that worth the effort and money invested? And does it keep even 500 Lincoln stores in business with current number at 700 or so.

[SoonerLS]

What are your qualifications to make this kind of statement?

Just read most of his posts; he's an authority on "irrelevant."

[NickF1011]

I own Ford stock and get their annual report along with pages and pages of analysis from my full service financial investment company. No where do I see a separate balance sheet for Lincoln division only. With financial aid to Lincoln dealers, abritration to them also to buy them out, Super Bowl ad money, and on and on, I doubt very much if Lincoln is contributing a penny to Ford profits. Only distractions and abysmal sales figures every month. On top of that they are investing at least $1 billion on future Lincolns that come with no guarantee of future sales numbers. With that being said, a new MKC could probably get Lincoln sales up close to 100,000/year, but is even that worth the effort and money invested? And does it keep even 500 Lincoln stores in business with current number at 700 or so.

I have one answer for you and then this topic is done:

 

Why don't we wait and see?

[BORG]

You know, I'll be allot less cranky when the new MKX is here Which probably means another 2 years of crankiness.

 

But in all seriousness, I really don't hate Lincoln (obviously I've bought them since 2000), I'm just impassioned as a Lincoln owner. I want to be a Lincoln evangelist, but I don't have the tools to be that yet so it's frustrating when you see Lincoln fumble so much on something that really isn't terribly inspired to begin with.

 

The MKZ is actually a product that offers something distinctly Lincoln for which you can point, but it's the means by which they get to it which is not so virtuous. And further more, it's a pro-con arrangement. You can get your push button transmission, glass roof, and Lincoln exclusive design, but you can't get the exotic chassis engineering and technology to match the competition in refinement and handling. It's all very disingenuous and compromised, and you just have to hope customers value what they see more than what they think.

Edited April 1, 2013 by BORG

[FordBuyer]

Of course it's still the case! People don't have to buy a BMW or MB. They can go spend far less on something else and get many of the same features. That would obviously be the purely logical decision. They simply don't want to.

 

Which way do you want it, FB? Do you want Ford to dump billions of dollars from other programs into Lincoln to revive it or do you want them to operate as a functional, profitable unit of Ford Motor Company? It just doesn't work both ways. Ford is going to let Lincoln operate as long as it pays its own way. If it no longer does that, then I would fully expect them to go away. So no, they aren't a "distraction" from anything.

 

Nick, you have your way of cutting up my post and taking the totality out of context so that I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Again, Ford came up with upmarket Titanium models that crowd low end of base Lincoln models, and deprive Titanium models of popular, useful features than Titanium owners would like to have like CCD suspension. That is a vexing problem for Ford marketing a luxury division and buyers who want certain features without having to pay for luxury car with luxury prices that they don't want or need. Let's say I want a Fusion Titanium, but also want adaptive projector headlights, CCD suspension, and Panoramic moon roof in a 3500 pound vehicle. I shouldn't be forced to spend $15,000 more to get 4,000 pound vehicle with same engine to get CCD with 500 more pounds to carry around. For many, it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

[NickF1011]

Nick, you have your way of cutting up my post and taking the totality out of context so that I don't know what the hell you are talking about. Again, Ford came up with upmarket Titanium models that crowd low end of base Lincoln models, and deprive Titanium models of popular, useful features than Titanium owners would like to have like CCD suspension. That is a vexing problem for Ford marketing a luxury division and buyers who want certain features without having to pay for luxury car with luxury prices that they don't want or need. Let's say I want a Fusion Titanium, but also want adaptive projector headlights, CCD suspension, and Panoramic moon roof in a 3500 pound vehicle. I shouldn't be forced to spend $15,000 more to get 4,000 pound vehicle with same engine to get CCD with 500 more pounds to carry around. For many, it just leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

I don't even know where to start with the ridiculousness in the scenario you just posed, so I won't. You pose hypotheticals that no automaker currently has a solution for yet expect Lincoln to somehow achieve it.

 

"I want every feature of a luxury car, but I don't want to pay extra for it."

Edited April 1, 2013 by NickF1011