littlecountry Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0GK28K20140820 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madime39 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0GK28K20140820 As quickly as things change, it would be nice to find info about this "tentative plan" that's not 11 months old. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecountry Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 As quickly as things change, it would be nice to find info about this "tentative plan" that's not 11 months old. Yea your right cause Ford can design a vehicle , gets suppliers ready, get a plant tooled and ready to go in a few weeks so yea this article don't mean shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madime39 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Yea your right cause Ford can design a vehicle , gets suppliers ready, get a plant tooled and ready to go in a few weeks so yea this article don't mean shit! Remember, "reading comprehension" can be your friend. I never said it wasn't true, I said it would be nice to find a more recent article about this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) Took me awhile to decipher this gibberish, I have no response other than to clarify that tier 2's don't have a pension and never will. In fact I'm on record as saying I don't want one. I'd rather the company match my 401k....see that's a win a win for the company and myself and will help to reduce the effects when the next down turn hits. However I don't think you understand that. The only reason it took you so long to decipher my so called gibberish is because the way I explained myself, there was no way for you to misinterpret what I had to say. Plus your inability to accept and process factual information that differs from your assumptions clashes with your closed minded way of thinking which will not allow you to change your mind when faced with actual facts. Below is a point by point response to your pea brained like response to my original post. #1 It also takes time for a kid in grade school to decipher 2+2=4, but eventually they understand, just as someday you will understand the the truth of my post. #2 Everyone knows, including me, that tier2 gets 401k match instead of a pension. Everyone also knows that making $19/hr (less than $40k/yr) is not enough to raise a family(comfortably), make house payments, save for your children's college, take vacations, buy new cars, and have enough money left over to put what you will need(including 401k match) into TESPHE. Correct me if I am wrong but I can only assume from your post that you still live at your parents house and have no family yet. #3 As far as your ignorant comment that you will never have a pension...FYI...with time, you will eventually become tier1. The percentage of tier2 allowed may increase somewhat, but I doubt it will ever go above 30%. Tier2 will NEVER be the majority. So somewhere along the line you will become tier1, lose your TESPHE match, make a liveable wage, and earn a pension whether you want one or not. #4 Concerning your "win win" comment and how Ford will make it through the next down cycle because they don't have to pay tier2's pension is ignorant and inaccurate. The cost of funding the pension accounts for 30%(tier2) of the labor workforce is an insignificant blip of the overall labor cost. Even the cost of funding 100% of the workforce pensions is not enough savings to get through a down cycle. During a down cycle they will cut personnel because of decreased demand of vehicles. Depending on the plant you work at and the vehicles you make, if the sales of that particular vehicle does not justify 2 or 3 shifts, they will reduce shifts and tier2 WILL be laid off first. From your posts, it is obvious you don't understand that. If you really think that when the demand for the vehicle you build drops off enough during a down cycle, or even during good times(MAP), Ford will continue to run the extra shifts because they don't have to fund the pensions of tier2 people......well, I have a nice bridge in New York that I have been trying to sell and this deal might be right up your alley. #5 Here is a nickels worth of free advice.......get over your displeasure of the disparity in wage/benefits. You knew about them and accepted the job. You WILL eventually gain tier1 compensation/benefits. The majority of tier1 wants equal pay/benefits for entire labor workforce(fact). Stop with the hard headed attitude that you are happy with what you get and anyone that makes more than you is greedy and an anchor to Ford profits. You should be fighting along side tier1 to abolish tier2 and 3, not bring tier1down to your compensation level. Again, you WILL be tier1 someday. Unionized labor like the UAW is the top of the compensation labor ladder. We have benefited from the fights the "old" union and retiree's fought. To reduce our compensation to tier2 levels would ripple through the entire labor force, unionized and non-union. Do you really think that a non union labor employee working in a factory should be making the same as a cashier at Home Depot? And do you think you are fairly compensated for your work while Ford is making billions in profit and you are making far less than the national average income and barely above the poverty level while the guy next to you makes a liveable wage, puts his kids through college, and lives in a nice house? Your best bet is to fight alongside tier1 majority to get rid of the tiered pay scale and make all of us equal in compensation like it was for decades. In case you are not aware, prior to tier2 personnel, Ford was profitable with a workforce of over 80k laborers making current tier1 compensation. The workforce was cut almost in half to the current 42k American laborers with 20% of those at tier2 compensation. Another fun fact is that the cost of labor for Ford is less than 10% of their operational overhead (google it). #6 I would love to hear a factual and rational response from you concerning your hostility towards tier1 instead of the typical grade school responses you give that are non-factual, vague, and filled with assumptions. I do enjoy trying to explain my posts when questioned by anyone, especially those who reply with arrogant superiority on subjects that they believe they understand but in reality have only scratched the surface. On the flip side of that comment, I am open to other peoples factual responses as to why I am wrong. If something is brought up that I am not aware of, is fact and rational, I am willing to admit my ignorance of that fact and change my way of thinking. Unfortunately, with reference to your past reply's to others, I expect you will just call me a "stupid head" or some other grade school response to indicate I am wrong and you are right without explanation. Edited July 14, 2015 by RougeWelder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Decker Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) Tier2 Remember what happened to the 401K`s in the last down turn? Wonder what will happen to the 401K`s in the next down turn? 401K a completely secure retirement fund...? There are people who lost large sum`s of their 401K in the last down turn, 4 to 5 years later and the amount they lost is yet to be built back up in their 401K. Unfortunately, you will realize way down the road, that our business agent is far from being business orientated. (other than keeping the dues coming in) The proof, our agents proved to the world that the labor they have sold to the company for years is now only worth half of what the senior members of this business we call a union, receive. Then there is the facts that our business agents would take on another VEBA even though they never have had a good business record with this type of business venture. Tier2 if you do make it to tier 1 that will be the day you, realize that you will never reach the tier 1 rate of pay or the benefits that tier 1 will soon see the reduction of. If and when we can take the politics (lies and half truths) out of our big business and put unionism back as the true driving force then and only then will the membership be the first concern for our business agents. Good luck tier2. Decker Edited July 15, 2015 by Decker 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deflep1 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Rouge, on point #3, Ford has stated that anyone hired as second tier could eventually get first tier pay, but the company permanently stopped offering pensions to hourly workers. All entry level employees have a fixed 401k from their first day until they retire, regardless of how much they make an hour. Pensions are going the way of the dinosaur in the U.S. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecountry Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Tier 2 employees don't come to work now , imagine if they get Tier 1 wage they will probably only work 2 days a week instead of 3. First check they get they will be saying look at that money I can take more days off now! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDeal Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Tier 2 employees don't come to work now , imagine if they get Tier 1 wage they will probably only work 2 days a week instead of 3. First check they get they will be saying look at that money I can take more days off now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
focusfrank Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 The tier 2's who are still at MAP and didn't make the final cut and were told that they would be there until at least September will be laid off August 24. That's official Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Rouge, on point #3, Ford has stated that anyone hired as second tier could eventually get first tier pay, but the company permanently stopped offering pensions to hourly workers. All entry level employees have a fixed 401k from their first day until they retire, regardless of how much they make an hour. Pensions are going the way of the dinosaur in the U.S.[/quote I can't debate a guy that clearly doesn't know the facts. A pension is a HUGE factor in a companies profibility. Think of it like this, they are paying people that are contributing nothing to the current products. For the record I'm a single father of two boys and have NEVER said tier 1s wages should be cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one of a kind Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hey the 40+ guys the went to Livonia I guess are loving it. They like it so much their trying to get back to map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Rouge, on point #3, Ford has stated that anyone hired as second tier could eventually get first tier pay, but the company permanently stopped offering pensions to hourly workers. All entry level employees have a fixed 401k from their first day until they retire, regardless of how much they make an hour. Pensions are going the way of the dinosaur in the U.S. Thanks for pointing that out. I did not know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tier2 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Thanks for pointing that out. I did not know that. But yet you still attacked me, as if I didn't know the facts. I'll be waiting for the apology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
182 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Hey the 40+ guys the went to Livonia I guess are loving it. They like it so much their trying to get back to map. Fuck em. They got what they deserved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Rouge, on point #3, Ford has stated that anyone hired as second tier could eventually get first tier pay, but the company permanently stopped offering pensions to hourly workers. All entry level employees have a fixed 401k from their first day until they retire, regardless of how much they make an hour. Pensions are going the way of the dinosaur in the U.S.[/quote I can't debate a guy that clearly doesn't know the facts. A pension is a HUGE factor in a companies profibility. Think of it like this, they are paying people that are contributing nothing to the current products. For the record I'm a single father of two boys and have NEVER said tier 1s wages should be cut. If you read my post, I stated in point #6.... "I am open to other peoples factual responses as to why I am wrong. If something is brought up that I am not aware of, is fact and rational, I am willing to admit my ignorance of that fact and change my way of thinking." I never said or insinuated I knew everything. I am open minded and will accept facts that I am not aware of from others and allow that new information to influence my thought process. Unlike others that immediately dismiss another persons factual argument that does not coincide with their own. You CAN debate a guy that is open minded and processes all information to make an informed decision. I was not aware of the fact that tier2 will never have a pension even after they obtain tier1 status. Thanks for pointing that out. A pension is not a HUGE factor in a companies profitability and IS NOT going the way of the dinosaur. For 2014, it cost Ford $5900 for my pension, or $2.86/hr which is a very small part of the $57/hr. they pay for tier1 personnel. The cost of training people, even for brain dead production work, is extremely costly and hampers productivity. For companies who need an experienced workforce, it is inefficient and expensive to have to constantly train people to do the job. Therefore, they offer wages and benefits to keep trained personnel on the job. This concept does not apply to jobs like McDonald's, grocery cashiers, etc., where low wages, no benefits, and extremely basic training trump the need to maintain an experienced workforce. The ones that do stay at these jobs, for the most part, are not concerned with quality and could care less if they are let go because they can just go to the store(or whatever) down the street and get the same compensation. The cost of a constant and high turnover of employee's is extremely high. If a new hire takes 3 months(some less, some longer) to train to become efficient at multiple jobs on the line at $19 per hour, that would cost Ford over $9100 for the first three months of all new employee's. Not to mention the time for others to train them, supervision to check on them more often, and time for others to correct mistakes. Ford can not allow or afford a large turnover in personnel every week. At this point in time, tier2 people are retained by hourly rate only and the potential hourly rate they can eventually achieve. So, at the time tier2 was created and you where hired, the economy was at rock bottom and millions lost their jobs. Even at the significantly lower pay scale and benefits, what Ford offered new hires was the best thing available and anyone, including me, would consider themselves lucky to obtain that kind of entry level job at that time. Now, with tier2 people being on the job for years and the economy on the rebound, feeling the pain of production, others making much more doing the same work, and Ford raking in huge profits, what was once considered a great opportunity during terrible economic times, has turned into feelings of being taken advantage of and being under compensated, rightfully so. If pensions for all sectors of the workforce, labor, skilled, and educated, went the way of the dinosaur, could you imagine the cost put on the federal government to support every single senior that dedicated their entire life working for a company that profited ten fold compared to what they paid for that employee. Even taking into consideration the entire cost for that employee, not just hourly rate. I believe tier1 Ford workers cost $57/hour. American corporations have an economic responsibility to compensate those who helped them achieve the obscene profits they enjoy. We are not China or any other 3rd world country that abuses workers and takes advantage of 10yr olds by paying pennies while making billions(i.e. Apple, Nike, etc.). So to avoid the costs of employee's coming and going every other week and the companies large profit margin, benefit packages to retain employee's are financially viable. Please read and understand my entire posts if you wish to respond to them. Your ignorant statement that "you can't debate with someone who does not know the facts" highlights the deficiency in your attention of the content of my posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RougeWelder Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) But yet you still attacked me, as if I didn't know the facts. I'll be waiting for the apology. Don't hold your breath. I will NEVER apologize for something I do not know. As I stated above, I do not pretend to know everything. An apology would be necessary only if I ignored that fact because it did not coincide with what I said. Again.....I am open minded and will accept facts that I am not aware of and use them in my decision making process, even if it proves me wrong. I am not offended when proven incorrect. I attacked you for your ignorant perception of who is to blame for your unfair compensation and your immature remarks and hostility toward tier1 people. Edited July 17, 2015 by RougeWelder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deflep1 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Thanks for pointing that out. I did not know that. No problem, lots of people missed that fact when they changed the retirement policy. Auto reporters in Detroit have stated the big 3 are looking to possibly buy out the hourly retiree pensions, like they did with salary. Reduce legacy costs at ALL costs, I guess. If you work 30 years and are retired for 40 years, it really hurts their business model! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deflep1 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 If you read my post, I stated in point #6.... "I am open to other peoples factual responses as to why I am wrong. If something is brought up that I am not aware of, is fact and rational, I am willing to admit my ignorance of that fact and change my way of thinking." I never said or insinuated I knew everything. I am open minded and will accept facts that I am not aware of from others and allow that new information to influence my thought process. Unlike others that immediately dismiss another persons factual argument that does not coincide with their own. You CAN debate a guy that is open minded and processes all information to make an informed decision. I was not aware of the fact that tier2 will never have a pension even after they obtain tier1 status. Thanks for pointing that out. A pension is not a HUGE factor in a companies profitability and IS NOT going the way of the dinosaur. For 2014, it cost Ford $5900 for my pension, or $2.86/hr which is a very small part of the $57/hr. they pay for tier1 personnel. The cost of training people, even for brain dead production work, is extremely costly and hampers productivity. For companies who need an experienced workforce, it is inefficient and expensive to have to constantly train people to do the job. Therefore, they offer wages and benefits to keep trained personnel on the job. This concept does not apply to jobs like McDonald's, grocery cashiers, etc., where low wages, no benefits, and extremely basic training trump the need to maintain an experienced workforce. The ones that do stay at these jobs, for the most part, are not concerned with quality and could care less if they are let go because they can just go to the store(or whatever) down the street and get the same compensation. The cost of a constant and high turnover of employee's is extremely high. If a new hire takes 3 months(some less, some longer) to train to become efficient at multiple jobs on the line at $19 per hour, that would cost Ford over $9100 for the first three months of all new employee's. Not to mention the time for others to train them, supervision to check on them more often, and time for others to correct mistakes. Ford can not allow or afford a large turnover in personnel every week. At this point in time, tier2 people are retained by hourly rate only and the potential hourly rate they can eventually achieve. So, at the time tier2 was created and you where hired, the economy was at rock bottom and millions lost their jobs. Even at the significantly lower pay scale and benefits, what Ford offered new hires was the best thing available and anyone, including me, would consider themselves lucky to obtain that kind of entry level job at that time. Now, with tier2 people being on the job for years and the economy on the rebound, feeling the pain of production, others making much more doing the same work, and Ford raking in huge profits, what was once considered a great opportunity during terrible economic times, has turned into feelings of being taken advantage of and being under compensated, rightfully so. If pensions for all sectors of the workforce, labor, skilled, and educated, went the way of the dinosaur, could you imagine the cost put on the federal government to support every single senior that dedicated their entire life working for a company that profited ten fold compared to what they paid for that employee. Even taking into consideration the entire cost for that employee, not just hourly rate. I believe tier1 Ford workers cost $57/hour. American corporations have an economic responsibility to compensate those who helped them achieve the obscene profits they enjoy. We are not China or any other 3rd world country that abuses workers and takes advantage of 10yr olds by paying pennies while making billions(i.e. Apple, Nike, etc.). So to avoid the costs of employee's coming and going every other week and the companies large profit margin, benefit packages to retain employee's are financially viable. Please read and understand my entire posts if you wish to respond to them. Your ignorant statement that "you can't debate with someone who does not know the facts" highlights the deficiency in your attention of the content of my posts. Pensions are still offered on most public sector union jobs, but in the private sector, less than half of the companies that offered them 10 years ago still offer them to new employees. It costs much less for Ford to fund the pension while we're working, but once we collect it, there's no productivity from us any more to offset their costs. That's why they started buying out the retirees pensions. Formulate how long they will probably live when they start collecting it, then make a lump sum cash offer for 40-50% of the grand total of all those payments. You do make good points in your post and seem to have put a lot of thought into it. I can respect that. I didn't mean to start a fight between you and the tier 2 poster, but it's good to see the passion of which our workers have for jobs and their views on it. Good luck to all of us in these contract talks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
focusfrank Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 (edited) Fuck em. They got what they deserved. Edited July 17, 2015 by focusfrank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madime39 Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Rouge, on point #3, Ford has stated that anyone hired as second tier could eventually get first tier pay, but the company permanently stopped offering pensions to hourly workers. All entry level employees have a fixed 401k from their first day until they retire, regardless of how much they make an hour. Pensions are going the way of the dinosaur in the U.S. So just out of curiosity, if these employees work for Ford for, say, 10 years, can they take that 401(k) with them if they decide to leave Ford for other employment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 So just out of curiosity, if these employees work for Ford for, say, 10 years, can they take that 401(k) with them if they decide to leave Ford for other employment? The way I understand it (Naturally, I've never been able to get an actual answer on it), is that no, we can't. Its not a traditional 401(k), but more of a stock based savings account. That's why its called a Tax Efficient Savings Plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDeal Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 If you are to retire, quit or be terminated, vested funds are yours. You just can't touch company contributed funds until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Oh yeah, I forgot about that part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlecountry Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 So just out of curiosity, if these employees work for Ford for, say, 10 years, can they take that 401(k) with them if they decide to leave Ford for other employment? You can roll it into anything you wish, it's your money, you can leave today and take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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