bifs66 Posted March 27, 2017 Author Share Posted March 27, 2017 This has been a great discussion with lots of info provided. The benefit to keep engine enhancements compatible with existing production machining (bore-centers, etc.) is not something new. The original SBF(221,260,289,etc) had the same bore centers as the Y-block so that they could be machined along the same lines. I've often wondered if 289 heads could have been "adjusted" to fit a Y-block. Incidentally, In the last several "Engine Masters" challenges, the old Y-block engines have been producing unbelievable HP (and winning their class). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 the old Y-block engines have been producing unbelievable HP (and winning their class). Something to be said for deep skirt engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 There's a lot more than bore spacing shared between the Koeniggsegg engine and the 4.6. Koenigsegg is still using the 4.6 cam/crank position sensors, 4G altenator, timing cover remains interchangable, rear main seal plate is the same, they were using actual Ford cylinder heads castings on at least as late as the Agera motor. Crankshafts are interchangable between all 3 engines, the Coyote's rear mounted crank trigger posing he greatest obstacle to interchangeability, no such issue exists between the Koenigsegg/4.6. The Coyote shares many dimensions with the 4.6 beyond bore spacing and deck height. Main bearing width/diameter, rod bearing diameter, connecting rod length (and small end diameter), cylinder head bolt pattern, bellhousing bolt pattern all identical. And like I've already said, the Coyote is MUCH close to a new architecture than the Koenigsegg engine is. Koenigsegg have tried to distance themselves from the 4.6 from a marketing perspective, they have done exactly the opposite from an engineering perspective. Which is pretty much the objective when your aim is to fortify and evolve existing design, read the article and Koenigsegg only have one engine designer guy...Of course he's only going to change that which needs changing and leave the rest to a fair usage agreement between the two companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 For the record this is the list of parts Ford lists for "classic hot rod". Anyone notice any deficiencies? https://performanceparts.ford.com/classic-ford-hot-rod/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 For the record this is the list of parts Ford lists for "classic hot rod". Anyone notice any deficiencies? https://performanceparts.ford.com/classic-ford-hot-rod/ Yeah. These things: https://performanceparts.ford.com/category/38/Engine%20Blocks And these things: https://performanceparts.ford.com/category/43/Cylinder%20Heads And these things: https://performanceparts.ford.com/category/44/Crankshafts And so on and so forth. It's patently obvious that list consists of dress-up bits that are intended for FORD engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 This has been a great discussion with lots of info provided. The benefit to keep engine enhancements compatible with existing production machining (bore-centers, etc.) is not something new. The original SBF(221,260,289,etc) had the same bore centers as the Y-block so that they could be machined along the same lines. I've often wondered if 289 heads could have been "adjusted" to fit a Y-block. Incidentally, In the last several "Engine Masters" challenges, the old Y-block engines have been producing unbelievable HP (and winning their class). For a project in the back of my mind, this is one reason I am looking at being non traditional - I am looking for a Ford 302, not the one you all are thinking of, but the Lincoln Y block 302 truck engine. Unique look with unique sound and can still use the 302 or 5 liter badges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 For a project in the back of my mind, this is one reason I am looking at being non traditional - I am looking for a Ford 302, not the one you all are thinking of, but the Lincoln Y block 302 truck engine. Unique look with unique sound and can still use the 302 or 5 liter badges. Wow. How many of those blocks do you think there even are anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 For Ford, the reasoning was simple. By not changing the bore spacing Ford avoided millions of dollars in new tooling costs and shortened the time to production by re-using existing tooling. Right around the same time Coyote was developed Ford invested in new tooling for the 6.2L Boss. According to this article, Ford had considered the 6.2L for the Mustang. I wonder if they ever considered dropping the modular V8 altogether and focus on the new engines based on 6.2L instead. Develop aluminum blocks, 4 valve heads, various displacements, etc. for the Boss instead of putting the funds into Coyote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) Yeah. These things: https://performanceparts.ford.com/category/38/Engine%20Blocks And these things: https://performanceparts.ford.com/category/43/Cylinder%20Heads And these things: https://performanceparts.ford.com/category/44/Crankshafts And so on and so forth. It's patently obvious that list consists of dress-up bits that are intended for FORD engines. Yes Richard, there is precious little support for Ford V8 into early car. As far as I know there is a "shorty" water pump available and some block hugger headers. Maybe an angled oil filter adapter. That's about it. What they need to do initially is so simple. Firstly they need some reasonably priced pulleys and brackets available for 289-302, 351W, and 429-460 engines. The "Fairlane" engines need both conventional and shorty setups. These parts mostly already exist in some form but haven't been pulled together under one brand and thus making them easy to find and use. There should be some form of literature or at least a section on the Ford Performance website, that includes Q & A, that pertains specifically to Ford V8 into early car applications. Again all this information exists but has never been pulled together in one understandable information source. Lastly Ford should really think about branding a parts group including engine assemblies that speaks to the very type of enthusiast that would endeavor into this type of project. Something catchy and old school like the "Power King" or maybe the "Thunderbird" power train line. Not rocket science just a teeny tiny wee bit of effort could make a big difference. Edited March 29, 2017 by Stray Kat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Wow. How many of those blocks do you think there even are anymore? It is never easy to be non traditional. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 It is never easy to be non traditional. I am slowly building a 1954 317" Lincoln V8. In fact I have a neat B/W 3spd o/d to back it up for a traditional hot rod drive line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 These parts mostly already exist in some form but haven't been pulled together under one brand and thus making them easy to find and use. Doesn't necessarily need to be Ford that does this. Someone with a bit of web savvy could put together a "Put a Ford in your Ford" website that cataloged the parts necessary to fit a Fairlane, FE, 385, or any other Ford motor into a hot rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 They might even be able to make money off it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 They might even be able to make money off it! That's crazy talk right there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Doesn't necessarily need to be Ford that does this. Someone with a bit of web savvy could put together a "Put a Ford in your Ford" website that cataloged the parts necessary to fit a Fairlane, FE, 385, or any other Ford motor into a hot rod. Richard I'd do the technical "leg work" if someone talented such as yourself could do the website thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Richard I'd do the technical "leg work" if someone talented such as yourself could do the website thing. It's worth a shot! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I am slowly building a 1954 317" Lincoln V8. In fact I have a neat B/W 3spd o/d to back it up for a traditional hot rod drive line. Great - We need to keep some of the old engines around. Those Lincoln Y blocks have unique looks and sounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Ford had great engineering in the 1950's. That cream continues to rise to the top in competitions such as this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 4V Modulars dominated Engine Masters in 2013, the first year they were allowed, and we're subsequently banned. I guess you can't beat up and steal the LS's lunch money when PHR is running the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Is there anyone else hoping that Ford Performance decides to really pull out the stops and builds a crate version on the 6.2 Raptor engine to 427 cubic inches giving us a modern 427 SOHC? Ford does sell those engines to Indmar where they are converted for marine use. There seems to be a quiet program at Ford that does business with cottage industry. If a 427 SOHC Raptor could be created and marketed for $10,000 or less you would hear a giant sucking sound coming out of the GMPP division of General Motors. Seems like a fairly minor changes to the rotating assembly would get them to the magic number. Such an engine would cause shock waves in the hot rod community. There would be magazine covers dedicated to that engine for months. In a very short time that engine would catch on and form a whole new and exciting branch of the Ford Performance tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Is there anyone else hoping that Ford Performance decides to really pull out the stops and builds a crate version on the 6.2 Raptor engine to 427 cubic inches giving us a modern 427 SOHC? Ford does sell those engines to Indmar where they are converted for marine use. There seems to be a quiet program at Ford that does business with cottage industry. If a 427 SOHC Raptor could be created and marketed for $10,000 or less you would hear a giant sucking sound coming out of the GMPP division of General Motors. Seems like a fairly minor changes to the rotating assembly would get them to the magic number. Such an engine would cause shock waves in the hot rod community. There would be magazine covers dedicated to that engine for months. In a very short time that engine would catch on and form a whole new and exciting branch of the Ford Performance tree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Kat Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 This is interesting: http://www.stangtv.com/news/can-a-6-2-liter-raptor-engine-become-a-modern-boss-429/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 It's a nice idea and I get your enthusiasm but from Ford's standpoint it probably wouldn't make sense. Hard to justify a one-off crate engine not used in a production vehicle both from a profit and resource perspective especially when they already have production based ecoboost engines making even more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 It's a nice idea and I get your enthusiasm but from Ford's standpoint it probably wouldn't make sense. Hard to justify a one-off crate engine not used in a production vehicle both from a profit and resource perspective especially when they already have production based ecoboost engines making even more power. I'm not following you here--Ford is already selling crate engines that aren't used in production vehicles, including 302s, 351s, and 460s. They're even selling 351s stroked and bored out to 427 cubes: https://performanceparts.ford.com/competition-crate-engines/#351 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 I'm not following you here--Ford is already selling crate engines that aren't used in production vehicles, including 302s, 351s, and 460s. They're even selling 351s stroked and bored out to 427 cubes: https://performanceparts.ford.com/competition-crate-engines/#351 But those are based on previous production engines so all that tooling and development is already paid for. This would entail development and testing and production of a new engine with limited market competing with Ford resources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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