You Had to Try Hard to Lose Me as a Customer, But You Succeeded

[johnnyb82]

Ever since I was a little kid, my family bought Ford. It stretches back to when my father was a farmer in Maryland and they bought Ford trucks and Ford tractors.

 

Eventually, everyone else in my family became sick of the constant repairs and the unreliability of the vehicles they bought. First my parents bought a Honda Pilot, then when they had such a great experience with that, my father chose an Acura TL to replace his Ford.

 

Still I would chastise my parents for losing their loyalty. I would say that Ford's problems were overblown, that their cars were becoming more and more reliable, and say that they should give this American auto manufacturer the benefit of the doubt.

 

I am in my twenties and a member of a generation that Ford has all but lost. I knew no one--not a single person--who wanted to buy a Ford or even drive one. Still, I would patiently explain the virtues of the new cars. How their reliability was good. That they had exciting new products so they should ignore their prejudices and give the cars a shot.

 

I believed in the company so much that with money I saved from part-time jobs in colleges, I bought a number of Ford shares. Even when those shares lost a couple of thousand in value, I stood fast and did not blame the company that Wall Street lost faith in them. Out of necessity, I had to sell a lot of my shares, but kept 25 just so that I could have a stake in the company I loved.

 

Because of this love of Ford, I followed their news religiously, frequenting this site and other automotive news sites, hoping to witness Ford's resurrection.

 

My fiancee had no faith in American-made cars and was set on purchasing a Honda CRV to replace her old Camry. Through perseverance, and having her actually test drive a Freestyle I had convinced her that the Freestyle instead should be her next automotive purchase. She was going to buy one within the year, but not anymore.

 

My 99 Ford Taurus with just 50K on it had some exhaust problems. I took it to a mechanic and he told me that the problem was with the CAT assembly but that luckily it was covered by a 8yr/80K federally mandated warranty.

 

I took it to a dealer to get it fixed. They claimed that in New York State, because it has the California emissions warranty, they only had to cover 7 years and 70,000 miles. All the information I have found indicate that the California warranty is addition to the default federal rules and that they do NOT reduce the EPA mandated warranty. Ford itself has made it clear in its warranty statements from 2002 up (it was unclear before).

 

The dealer was condescending and belligerent. Ford Customer Care was clueless, bureaucratic and unhelpful. They did not even have a supervisor or other number I could call to complain.

 

Everything indicates that Ford is wrong on the law and that they should repair it. But even I am wrong and for some reason there was a strange limbo of 1999-2001 where Ford did not have to cover it, the company has made no effort to explain why I am wrong. All they do is recite some handbook they have, with no explanation.

 

Unless you somehow come through with me, I am done with Ford. I have already sold all my shares this morning. My fiancee will not buy a Freestyle. I will no longer stick-up for Ford when I am among skeptical friends. Actually, I will probably tell them of what happened to me and tell them how I am through with Ford. I doubt that any of them will now change their minds considering that Ford's ineptitude and rudeness has turned even a partisan like me off.

 

There are a lot of reasons why Ford is in the sorry state that is in today, but my guess that turning off customers like me is probably one of the biggest reasons. Fighting me on this warranty claim may have saved you a $1000 today, but you have lost thousands of dollars in profits from my family's future car purchases. Before it was a no-brainer to buy Ford, now there is no chance I will ever even consider one.

 

I hope you are happy. I feel sorry that so many innocent workers will suffer, but you have left me no choice. Goodbye.

Edited November 7, 2006 by johnnyb82

[TheLemon]

Feel free to post your story on our website at FordLemon.com

[RaZor]

My 99 Ford Taurus with just 50K on it had some exhaust problems. I took it to a mechanic and he told me that the problem was with the CAT assembly but that luckily it was covered by a 8yr/80K federally mandated warranty.

 

I took it to a dealer to get it fixed. They claimed that in New York State, because it has the California emissions warranty, they only had to cover 7 years and 70,000 miles. All the information I have found indicate that the California warranty is addition to the default federal rules and that they do NOT reduce the EPA mandated warranty. Ford itself has made it clear in its warranty statements from 2002 up (it was unclear before).

 

The dealer was condescending and belligerent. Ford Customer Care was clueless, bureaucratic and unhelpful. They did not even have a supervisor or other number I could call to complain.

 

Everything indicates that Ford is wrong on the law and that they should repair it. But even I am wrong and for some reason there was a strange limbo of 1999-2001 where Ford did not have to cover it, the company has made no effort to explain why I am wrong. All they do is recite some handbook they have, with no explanation.

 

Unless you somehow come through with me, I am done with Ford. I have already sold all my shares this morning. My fiancee will not buy a Freestyle. I will no longer stick-up for Ford when I am among skeptical friends. Actually, I will probably tell them of what happened to me and tell them how I am through with Ford. I doubt that any of them will now change their minds considering that Ford's ineptitude and rudeness has turned even a partisan like me off.

 

Sorry to hear of your problems, but if you think that warranty issues (real or imagined) are going to go away by changing manufacturers, you are wrong. I will make one suggestion though.

 

If you go through and read the complains of most here about warranty issues, you will find one common thread. . . everyone wants to call someone and verbally complain thinking that they are going to get satisfaction. First of all, I know you are young (in your twenties) but realize that for most businesses (I speak here of long time experience), with a very high percentage of verbal complainers on issues that are borderline, many companies find that a very high percentage of them are scams by the customer. For example, many large chain retail stores have stopped allowing "returns" without an original receipt and only to the original store - why? Because of the high millions of dollars scams of people returning stolen merchandise or stuff that wasn't even bought from that chain every year. A very common one is women buying dresses to wear to a party and then retuning them afterwards. Thankfully they have laws about returning underwear.

 

Excessive useage (like drag racing a car and then trying to get the manufacturer to replace the engine/tranny/etc to replace the part under warranty), abnormal useage (routinely running over curbs damaging suspension parts) and all sorts of attempts by people to get someone else to pay for damage, storing a car without performing storage routines (have you ever seen the Stabil commercial with the guy in the bass boat that didn't bother to do proper storage routines for his boat? and if I remember right his RV - and now its going to cost him). People are stupid and companies have learned that and they should not pay for people's stupidity. Now I am not saying that you are one of those.

 

However, if you do have a legitimate issue, the best way to do it is in a written format with proper documentation. I relate a perfect example earlier in post #97 http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...=6832&st=77. Keep in mind that vehicle was clearly out of the warranty period. Now why is it that I got satisfaction and you didn't?

 

What does a cat converter cost for a 7 year old Taurus? $350-400? I helped my son replace one on a Nissan that he used to have that cost more than that and it took less than an hour to replace - out in the driveway. This idea that many have that the manufacturer covers all costs forever is ridiculous. Did you get 3 written estimates from bona fide exhaust companies? What caused the cat to fail? That is a pretty low mileage for a 7 yr old car. Do you realize some things (esp exhaust parts) will rust right off the car if they just sit. There has always been a rule to be careful when buying a used car with very low mileage as many parts - for instance seals (compressor/pumps/etc) will fail oftentimes once the car starts to used daily bec they just dried up for lack of use? I have seen stored cars that had much lower mileage on them - and the entire exhaust system was rusted out and it hadn't even been driven in years.

 

There are so many details that you haven't included to convince even me that this is a warranty issue and that sometimes with vehicles you just go ahead and pay, or fix it, yourself. My ex-wife had a conniption (fit) when a 8 year old clothes dryer heating element failed. It took me 15 minutes to replace it. But to hear her tell it -- the dryer was a piece of junk.

 

As my brother would say, good luck with Honda/Acura. Oh, and thelemon? I have a neighbor who got his Honda returned under the Florida lemon law for a very similar issue. Fortunately, he (my neighbor) is all grown up and moved on from the situation - unlike some.

[johnnyb82]

1. There was nothing abnormal about this car. I never drag raced it or treated it roughly in anyway.

 

2. The cost estimate I got is $1400 b/c of the extensive labor of the problem.

 

3. It's not an imagined warranty problem as the law is pretty clear on this and Ford itself has admitted it starting with the 2002 models.

 

4. It's low mileage because it was not used for long trips. It was used almost daily but for quick commutes.

 

5. Even if I was wrong about the warranty, you don't treat customers this way. And yes, I have once worked as a call center rep in school and I know what it is like to be on the other end.

 

I apologize that I am not as much of an expert on this to be able to do everything my self, but I do know what the warranty is and that Ford is blatantly failing to follow this. The customer is always wrong attitude that you display here is basically Ford's problem and how I was treated in this instance.

 

Finally, it is not about having the manufacturer cover all costs forever, it's about Ford living up to what the law requires.

[Ovaltine]

There are so many details that you haven't included to convince even me that this is a warranty issue and that sometimes with vehicles you just go ahead and pay, or fix it, yourself. My ex-wife had a conniption (fit) when a 8 year old clothes dryer heating element failed. It took me 15 minutes to replace it. But to hear her tell it -- the dryer was a piece of junk.

 

My cats in my '88 5.0 'Stang went bad in less than 5 years. It sounded like the material inside of them had broken apart and would rattle around as you applied the gas.

 

Unfortunately I assumed that that since this was past the 3 year warranty, I'd have to fix it out of pocket.... which I did. I didn't know that the Fed's had mandated cat coverage for 5 years/50k miles at that point.

 

So all I can say is, my experience with the one Ford I do still happen to own parallels the original author's. Luckily for me, there were *other* replacement parts available at that time that improved my vehicle's performance, if you know what I MEAN! B) For folks like the author however, similar performance enhancing and less-expensive-than-new-cats parts like mine don't exist off-the-shelf for vehicles like the Taurus.

 

Interestingly enough, my Plymouth Acclaim's cat system was going strong at 126k miles, and my Chevy C1500's cats are doing just fine at 95k miles. ????

 

-Ovaltine

Edited November 7, 2006 by Ovaltine

[bec5150]

*TRUE STORY*

 

My brother had the check engine light come on in his 2000 Accord. It ended up being the catalytic converter. The mechanic at Honda said "Yeah, the cats in the 2000's have issues and go out early."

 

Even at that, Honda didn't replace it. Something about warranting a car with 210K on it...

[JW]

*ALSO A TRUE STORY*

 

338,000 miles on my Ranger, and the entire exhaust system is factory stock, hangers and all. What a Ford pile of crap, huh? :rolleyes:

[mettech]

Yes there are. It's called a drill bit and a hammer. Unfortunately, I think NY has emissions testing.

 

Don't do that to your cat. Replace it.

[johnnyb82]

Look, I think people are misunderstanding why I am through with Ford. It is not because I have problems with my exhaust system, but because of how I have been treated by the company and the dealer despite the clear federally mandated law in place. If the warranty didn't exist, I would grumble about the cost, but it would not stop me from buying another Ford.

 

I have stood with Ford even though none of my family's Fords lasted longer than 75K before they done. 1988 Taurus, 1994 Windstar, etc. The only car that stayed fairly reliable was a Contour. This compares to much more positive experience when they have tried other manufacturers so it is not about how the cars have been treated by us.

 

My point in saying this is not that Ford's are less reliable, but that despite having bad experiences with their liability, I have stuck with them until now.

 

You can attack Honda and other companies with anecdotes about their technical problems, but that's not my point. You can also say that other companies might have treated me similarly, which is fine.

 

However, I have stayed loyal to Ford because of my heart, not my head. My heart was with the workers and some sort of patriotism, however misguided that might be. But they have killed my heart's attachment to them with the way they have treated me both on a corporate level and a dealer level (arguably not their fault). I just cannot reward that, however normal this might be, with continued business out of principal, however misguided. It boils down to that they have killed my loyalty and that's all that was left to keep me with them.

 

Listen, I have provoked a lot of negative responses from people here, perhaps deservedly so. Maybe I did not explain why I was upset with Ford and it's understandable that others were attack me on what they think I meant or think I said.

 

I do not mean to attack your choices personally. I certainly do not want to attack those who work at Ford. I think you folks have been treated terribly and are going through an awful time. I also do not want attack Ford enthusiasts at all. I respect that you have had good experiences, prefer their products and everything else.

 

So please don't view this as some sort of objective argument sort of thing. They have just treated me, personally, badly. They are ignoring a federal law. In the end, they most likely will have to do this repair once I get the EPA or a lawyer to back me, but they have already done the damage. I just cannot reward that. If they change their mind and follow the law willingly, that's fine and I will forgive what happened previously. But it doesn't look like they will.

[RaZor]

Apparently, you did not understand the main point (it may have been that I included too much information and it confused you) of my post. Answer me this:

 

Why would a person (who believes he/she has a legitimate complaint), take the time to come on an internet forum complaining about they have been 'done wrong' in writing -- WITHOUT taking the time to assemble all of your receipts and records (mileage, oil changes, service receipts) and at least two (three or more would be better) estimates/diagnosis by professional shops verifying the problem/failed part, ATTACH a well written business-like letter explaining your position (leave the 'my heart' is now aching BS out as if it were a country music song), and send it off to Dearborn?

 

In short. . . present your case -- in writing -- with documentation -- to the right people! If you don't, or can't, present your case in writing why should any company take you seriously? If you didn't keep all of your receipts/records, then you have learned an important lesson of life. . . start keeping them! It really helps should problems arise at some point.

[retro-man]

Or, choose a car that doesn't require you to spend your time as a legal assistant (assembling receipts and back-up, obtaining multiple estimates, writing letters, etc. - many valuable hours of your time), but rather lets you just drive it without trouble, and can be serviced quickly and efficiently. At your local Honda dealer.

 

I'm a Ford loyalist too. Drive one right now. But my wife doesn't. I have seen the other side. I feel a bit guilty about coming on here and pointing it out - but there is a difference.

[RaZor]

Or, choose a car that doesn't require you to spend your time as a legal assistant (assembling receipts and back-up, obtaining multiple estimates, writing letters, etc. - many valuable hours of your time), but rather lets you just drive it without trouble, and can be serviced quickly and efficiently. At your local Honda dealer.

 

I'm a Ford loyalist too. Drive one right now. But my wife doesn't. I have seen the other side. I feel a bit guilty about coming on here and pointing it out - but there is a difference.

 

Hahaha. Talk to my brother and many other people that I know. . . and they won't agree with you. Or, be prepared to use another vehicle for 3 months (2x's) at a time (still paying your car payment all the while). If you think that Honda is a care free car, guess again.

 

You don't need to be a legal secretary either, just document. If you don't document things that you buy, just hope that you are never robbed, never get hit by a hurricane, earthquake, tornado, flood, etc, etc., etc. If you don't document and cannot prove what you have . . . insurance companies will not pay your claim either.

 

The world is NOT as uncomplicated as it used to be. If you do business with a hand shake nowadays, get ready to bend over too.

[retro-man]

Oh, I'm not saying that Honda is a care free car. Only that the five Accords that have sat in our garage next to my Fords since 1983 have been. I can only speak to my own experience.

 

The reasons of sentiment and loyalty that have kept me in my Fords all these years are much the same as johnnyb82. Reliability is not one of them. Only the '98 Escort wagon I had before my current T-Bird achieved Honda-like levels of reliability. I think I sold it at around 75,000 miles, and the only problem I had on it was a flaky speaker wire in the passenger door. It was a good car.

 

On my wife's Accords - 23 years worth, most going well above 100k before trade-in, the only problems have been: a starter motor at around 30k miles on the '83 (which we traded, running like a watch, at 144,000 miles) - $200.00 covered under warranty, and a rattling rear vent on the '88 - fixed for free. Others have been, for all intents and purposes, trouble free. The current one, an '00 with 115,000 miles on it, is the only one where we have done the timing belt change as a precautionary measure. And her dealer does provide loner cars for service days.

 

Would you like me to list the problems so far on my '02 T-Bird?

[johnnyb82]

I didn't intend for this to be much of a discussion. This is To Ford Management, not to Ford apologists. I don't see the point of going back and forth attempting to get the last word in here.

Edited November 8, 2006 by johnnyb82

[Mark B. Morrow]

I didn't intend for this to be much of a discussion. This is To Ford Management, not to Ford apologists. I don't see the point of going back and forth attempting to get the last word in here.

 

If the law is as clear as you have represented as to Ford's obligation, you should contact your State Attorney General's Office and file a complaint. I interned with the PA AG many years ago and we were very successful in resolving this type of issue. If Ford or the dealer in violating the law, the State should be providing enforcement.

 

If you are in New York, your AG was just elected Governor. Mr. Spitzer has quite a reputation for enforcing consumer trade laws against Corporate America.

Edited November 8, 2006 by Mark B. Morrow

[bec5150]

Actually there are OEM mufflers more restrictive than a modern day cats. I do remember my father's 75 Chevy truck that had one of 'em with the beeds. Before removal: 7MPG. After removal: 13MPG. Crazy!!

[DICKHEAD]

Quote:

I have stood with Ford even though none of my family's Fords lasted longer than 75K before they done. 1988 Taurus, 1994 Windstar, etc. The only car that stayed fairly reliable was a Contour. This compares to much more positive experience when they have tried other manufacturers so it is not about how the cars have been treated by us.

 

 

 

 

Where does the lemon find these people? I have owned lots of fords and have never had any problems.

But then again I would not go after them to replace a converter on a seven year old car. :pig:

Edited November 9, 2006 by DICKHEAD

[johnnyb82]

Quote:

I have stood with Ford even though none of my family's Fords lasted longer than 75K before they done. 1988 Taurus, 1994 Windstar, etc. The only car that stayed fairly reliable was a Contour. This compares to much more positive experience when they have tried other manufacturers so it is not about how the cars have been treated by us.

Where does the lemon find these people? I have owned lots of fords and have never had any problems.

But then again I would not go after them to replace a converter on a seven year old car. :pig:

 

I suppose I shouldn't try to enforce a federally mandated warranty. I should give my money away and let Ford break the law.

[Mark B. Morrow]

I suppose I shouldn't try to enforce a federally mandated warranty. I should give my money away and let Ford break the law.

 

 

I have suggested above that you do enforce the federally mandated waranty. I don't see how complaining on this site is getting you any closer to that goal. You might be better off going through the necessary legal channels and then posting to tell any one else with the same issue how you solved the problem. If Ford broke the law, they should be held accountable and you should receive the repairs you are entitled to.

 

I would highly doubt that you are going to shame them into doing anything with your posts here.

[johnnyb82]

I have suggested above that you do enforce the federally mandated waranty. I don't see how complaining on this site is getting you any closer to that goal. You might be better off going through the necessary legal channels and then posting to tell any one else with the same issue how you solved the problem. If Ford broke the law, they should be held accountable and you should receive the repairs you are entitled to.

 

I would highly doubt that you are going to shame them into doing anything with your posts here.

 

The first post was to vent, but people keep on insulting me although sometimes in guise of giving advice. I am working on getting this done through legal channels, but it takes awhile. It's not an either or thing.

[True]

This really hurts me as a Ford employee. I truly hope that someone within Ford Management reads your message and delivers to you something that will help correct this. As an individual working for the company... I really wish I could help.

[96towncarcartier]

I suppose I shouldn't try to enforce a federally mandated warranty. I should give my money away and let Ford break the law.

 

 

And I bet that is EXACTLY what you want to have happen every time you get a speeding ticket.... give some lame excuse in the hope that you will be allowed to break the law without paying the fine....

 

 

 

Razor, you're exactly right. It takes all of a few minutes to present a case in writing that outlines the problem, and submit it for action. Expecting everything to be resolved with just one phone call is hooey.

 

*ANOTHER TRUE STORY*

 

My sister drives a 1988 Crown Victoria. Was a police car before she bought it.

 

At 18 years of age, it now has over 400,000 miles on it.

 

Original engine, and transmission. Runs like a scalded dog.

 

But of course, everyone thinks only the Jap cars are good.

 

 

 

 

*ALSO A TRUE STORY*

 

338,000 miles on my Ranger, and the entire exhaust system is factory stock, hangers and all. What a Ford pile of crap, huh? :rolleyes:

[earthworm]

I suppose I shouldn't try to enforce a federally mandated warranty. I should give my money away and let Ford break the law.

I am the sole Saab owner here and have owned cars from Hudson to Mazda; Buick to Volkswagen....

The car manufacturing companies can improve, in many ways.

One is communications - I would rate most as poor..

Your warranty is an example.

Your papers should show clearly and without doubt exactly how long the warranty is good for.

There must be no dispute.

It would be interesting to see exactly how your warranty reads...

 

The car-makers should not allow the governments "push them around", but they do.

The converter warranty should be about 5 years, 50,000 miles - IMO, the government, any government has no right telling the manufacturers how to do things !

 

What people say, orally, is worthless, IMO !

As an example, your mechanic - this warranty stuff has become so complex that no man should make a statement without the papers and books in hand... and this un-necessary complexion is what is wrong !

 

Your situation, Johnny, is crazy; you are caught between the state and federal government not doing the right thing...

 

You could make a big stink about this, hire some lawyers @ $$$$ per hour and force Ford to give you a new Catatlylic converter .

But, would this be the right thing to do ??

[ebritt]

Don't do that to your cat. Replace it.

 

 

 

 

The car-makers should not allow the governments "push them around", but they do.

The converter warranty should be about 5 years, 50,000 miles - IMO, the government, any government has no right telling the manufacturers how to do things !

You mean like having seatbelts mandatory?

 

Those government bastards!!!

 

 

 

[touchdown]

I didn't intend for this to be much of a discussion. This is To Ford Management, not to Ford apologists. I don't see the point of going back and forth attempting to get the last word in here.

 

johnnyb82

 

For the record, I appreciate your posts and your polite and professional attitude. Don't let the apologist get you down. As with any Board their are hardcore apologists and hard core critics (such as the Lemon and Otis). While they can be entertaining, nothing you do or say can change their mindsets. But there also seem to be a lot of thoughful and reasonable posters who would like to hear what you have to say.

 

I echo your point that the supposed purpose of this forum is to tell Ford Management things they ought to here - whether they listen or care is another matter.

 

My experience with Ford on warranty issues has some similarities - the striking point that I got from your post was the clueless Ford Customer Service and Ford's unwillingness to even put a manager on the phone to explain Ford's position. Even more than Ford's refusal to honor a warranty (at least as I saw the situation), I was very put off by Ford's customer service and Ford's apparent policy of preventing anyone who has knowledge or authority from actually speaking to a customer.

 

I will not buy a Ford again for this reason - I posted here to let Ford management know that and appreciate that you have done so also.

 

Touchdown