Gurgeh

Just goes to show that style is so much in the eye of the beholder. I get what you are saying. For instance, I think the current Range Rover Sport's exterior style is timeless, clean and amazingly great in a wholistic way. Same with some of the classic Lincolns you mention. A few others I can think of? The Y2K VW Passat and the Acura TL from about the same era. They both looked carved out of a solid block into an understated work of art. But Tesla? The S has a great looking exterior, but all the rest, in my view, are over-the-top bland.

That's the thing. The Chinese Explorer has a full-bore Lincoln interior. The U.S. one, other than the big tablet screen jutting up from the center vents, looks to me looks like an outdated pick-up truck interior. But maybe that's just me.

plus, the render does it differently than with the Nautilus, where you have a lower, flatter steering wheel enabling you to view the wall-to-wall screens above it. With this render, you will get a poor view of the screens and possibly little view of the road.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2023/06/22/ford-electric-vehicles-battery-plants-ky-department-energy-loan/70347093007/ Ford-SK On venture awarded $9.2B loan from Dept. of Energy for battery plants in KY The U.S. Department of Energy Loan Programs Office granted a conditional commitment loan of up to $9.2 billion for BlueOval SK to support its construction of three electric vehicle battery plants in Kentucky and Tennessee — including one in Stanton. Ford Motor Co. and South Korean company SK On finalized the BlueOval SK joint venture in 2022 to produce batteries for future Ford and Lincoln electric vehicles at the three plants. The Department of Energy called the loan the largest single federal investment ever made in the automotive industry, according to a news release on the announcement. “We’re thrilled the Department of Energy joins BlueOval SK in our vision to electrify the future of mobility,” BlueOval SK CEO Robert Rhee said in a statement. “BlueOval SK will use this loan to its fullest as we create 7,500 good American jobs, strengthen critical domestic supply chains, and produce high-quality batteries for future Ford and Lincoln electric vehicles here in Tennessee and Kentucky.” ...

I hope 5 years will finally get into the commercialization of solid state batteries. Notice Toyota's big solid state battery "breakthrough" announcement a couple of days ago? Well, if you get into the details of the announcement you see that there's no projected date for their application and that the EVs they have planned within the next few years all use traditional EV battery technology. Their "breakthrough" seems to be nothing much different from the press releases we've seen in the last couple of years from other solid state developers about their own path to the technology's commercial application within the 5-7 year timeframe.

Looks like NACS has now become the de facto standard in the North American market, whatever the Federal Government has to say, and the network that provides it is owned by Tesla (which will be getting a huge infusion of cash as a result and presumably will be expanding its supercharger network rapidly to meet the anticipated new demand). I wonder if CCS can even survive in this market after next year.

Though I'm a Lincoln guy, I can answer to an extent. If you want a 2-row mid-sized crossover, you generally aren't going to be tempted to go with a 3-row. It is just longer than you want and has a row you won't use. If Lincoln weren't importing the new Nautilus from one of their Chinese factories, I would have gone with a Genesis GV80, Mercedes GLE 450 or Range Rover Sport. They are all designed around two rows and are shorter than the Aviator (though not cheaper), but frankly are still a little bigger than what I want. So I overcame my wish that this wasn't a Chinese import and am going with the 2024 Nautilus. My guess is that if you were an Edge customer you wouldn't be looking at the Explorer. Definitely the Bronco if you like the rugged styling and greater off-road capabilities (whether you ended up using them or not), but otherwise you'd be looking a GM, Hyundai/Kia or maybe Subaru product, but honestly I don't really know the mass-market 2-row mid-sized crossover segment well. If I had the ability to do overnight charging I might have considered the Mach-E, but I don't (yet). Plus, my periodic road trip vacations down to Chincoteague, Virginia on the southern tip of the Delmarva peninsula would have been a bit of a challenge. I expect within a few years that will get fixed.

Ford and Lincoln really need a new mid-sized, 2-row product to replace the outgoing Edge and the Nautilus soon to be imported from China (hopefully only as a stop-gap measure). It is less urgent on the Ford side of things, since they have the hot-selling Bronco, but soon FMC will lack anything that serves the role of a roomy family car with seating for less than 7.

I understand "Aztek" is available...

Regarding ADMs, I was looking at the Range Rover Sport earlier this year as a replacement for my 2019 Nautilus (ended up going with a factory order and a long wait on the new 2024 Nautilus). JLR dealers are pretty much all into ADMs as well. One salesperson I talked to was proud that at her dealership everything was MSRP -- she then went on to discuss the mandatory add-ons, like $3k for vehicle protection crap. This dealer also engages in the practice of listing on their website vehicles available for purchase that are actually factory orders for other customers (RRSs are all-new and extremely limited in supply, so almost all of them being sold currently as factory orders). Anything to get people to call them I guess. I have a great relationship with the owner of my Lincoln-only dealer (I drive further to use them) and ended up getting below MSRP. Well, only slightly below, but hey that's still good these days in the industry on new product in scarce supply.

Starting in 2017 with release of the new Continental and followed in short order by the all-new Navigator, the updated MKX (the Nautilus), the Aviator and Corsair, Lincoln appeared to be making a serious move toward revitalization and sales were improving. But the new Continental never really caught on as much as many hoped and Lincoln never made an effort to update it. Then FMC decided to shut down all sedans in North America (pretending initially that Lincoln was excluded), and then further development of the line seemed to come to a screeching halt with the all-new Nautilus canceled (later revised for China and now being brought here) and then the Rivian-derived large flagship electric vehicle also canceled. So now Lincoln has just 4 vehicles, which almost became 3. We'll see if FMC actually plans another revitalization effort as the company moves along its electrification route. What Lincoln needs is a vision, fiercely competitive product (and more of them), and maybe an impressive halo sedan (or pretend large crossover with a sloped back and lower stance -- so yeah, pretty much a sedan). But all of that takes serious investment and an actual commitment to the brand. I'm not saying make stuff luxury buyers don't want; there's lots of product out there in the luxury field that does sell. FMC really needs to decide whether to compete full-on in the luxury space on a sustained basis. Just look how far and how fast Genesis has risen in the field. It is possible, but again it takes sustained commitment, a vision, great products and resources. Back on topic, I'll be getting the 2024 Nautilus (I have a Black Label on order), which will be my second Lincoln. It is fine with me that the more powerful engine option is a hybrid, though I'd like it to have at least (and ideally more) power than the outgoing excellent twin scroll V6. I would really like to be able to avoid oversized wheels that Lincoln wants to forced me into; I may go as far as to buy my own and put them on. I wish it wasn't coming from China, but I understand the special circumstances that made this necessary at least as a stop-gap measure. If the Nautilus wasn't being brought over from China -- the only realistic option in the short term -- Lincoln would have lost me as a customer as I look to replace my 2019 Nautilus. I like the unique cabin configuration, with the smaller steering wheel and the sweep of screens above the wheel displaying driver information. Even with its recent problems, Lincoln continues to arguably have the best interiors in the business.

The 2024 Lincoln Nautilus I put a factory order in for includes 4 years of BC subscription. Wow, I had no idea the normal subscription costs would be so high. $75 a month is nuts. If it wasn't included in my purchase price (I know, I know... in the end I'm still paying for it due to the Lincoln premium) I wouldn't pay the subscription fee. I'm fine paying for the much smaller subscription for satellite radio, as that is a feature I use every day. I'd also be perfectly fine paying the lower SuperCruise type fee for BlueCruise. But $75/month for those occasional road trips? No way. The irony is, I was going back and forth between getting the 2024 Nautilus and the new Range Rover Sport. I went with the Nautilus in part because of the availability of the superior and superb BlueCruise driver's assistance package. Ford needs to rethink those prices if they want it to be the selling point that it deserves to be. The two other factors in the decision is that I very much like the lower steering wheel and driver's information above the wheel instead of viewing it through the wheel. Oh, and the fact that it is about $20k less expensive. I'm not sure that I would have gone the other way on my decision if 4 years of BC weren't included in the purchase price of the new Nautilus, but at $75/month it might have.

Look on the bright side. With the last couple of years of nearly 10% inflation and probably a couple more years of current elevated levels of around 5%, $80k+ in 2025 will be the equivalent of 2021's $65k+. Yeah, the bright side... ?

Maybe those words in their original forms have meaning in business. But my background is in energy/environmental policy in government and I assure you that in those worlds the words are particularly vacuous. In their verb sense they have meaning. To sustain something it must be viable and be able to be cost effective over time. One transforms older systems and approaches into things that works into the future. In enviro-speak, turned into adverbs like transformational or, even worse, into adverbs that are then turned further into nouns like sustainability they become increasingly leached of concrete meaning and become whatever policy or approach the speaker prefers but doesn't want to actually explain, define or justify (sometimes because it is pretty much impossible to do so).

Remember a few years ago when everything was "sustainable" or "transformational" (or both)?

In Maryland where I live there's a state law that says any deposits must be fully refundable for any reason (or no reason) up until the point that you physically go in and do the purchase and take possession of the vehicle. Before I decided to buy out the lease on my current 2019 Nautilus I did a factory order for a Mercedes GLE-450 and put down a $2,000 deposit. When I got the call from the dealership that my vehicle was built and would be arriving in a few days -- but, well, the factory made a few changes. Few? So many of the options that made me want the crossover in the first place were factory deleted that I said thanks, but no thanks. That same day they refunded the full deposit amount to my credit card. Then I went in and bought out my Lincoln lease, and I'm glad I did because to my surprise the all new 2024 Nautilus is something I think I'll like better and it is indeed going to be on sale in North America. I've already put in a factory order for the new Nautilus for a much smaller deposit. But if I change my mind I'll get that back. I gather that the vehicle deposit laws in your state are different, but there is no reason for the dealership to keep it. Not if they actually care about keeping customers. They won't lose any money as they'll be able to sell the vehicle you ordered when it arrives at full price.

Good article from Forbes on this issue. There's a paywall, but you get 4 free articles a month. The key conclusions are that while some of the cost differentials on repairs should come down, there are reasons that all-electrics will likely continue to be more expensive to repair. See below for key points. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimhenry/2022/07/25/repairing-an-electric-vehicle-could-cost-more-than-gasoline-cars-a-new-kind-of-sticker-shock/?sh=d0d38945eee5 Repair facilities are making substantial investments in new equipment and training, to work on EVs — costs they will be looking to pass on to consumers. The novelty also means EV repairs can take longer, until technicians get accustomed to the new routines. While ICE vehicles also have more Advanced Driver Assistance Systems, like forward collision-avoidance, EVs are really loaded with ADAS features. ADAS sensors tend to be located in areas that are likely to be damaged in a collision, like the bumpers or exterior mirrors. They are expensive to replace. Battery packs make EVs heavier than similar-sized ICE vehicles. That means they collide with greater momentum. It also means EVs make greater use of expensive, lightweight, high-strength materials to try and offset the battery weight. Those materials are expensive to replace, too. Spray-painting after a repair may take longer for an EV, since often, the battery pack must be removed before painting, and reinstalled after. Time is money.

It wasn't a big deposit. Just a few hundred dollars. Most dealers do this in part to ensure that the person doing the order is serious, but it is totally refundable if you change your mind (according to state law). We even agreed on a price below MSRP, though not a lot below below MSRP. I do still have an issue, however, that might ultimately lead me to backing out of the deal. I really, really don't want the 22" wheels. They said Lincoln doesn't permit them to deliver a vehicle that is different in any way than the configuration on the sticker. But that isn't what I'm actually trying to do. I'm asking them to find another customer getting delivery about the same time with the smaller tires that would be interested in a free "upgrade." And then after delivery, switch, in an aftermarket agreement between two owners. I talked to the owner about this (he is the person who actually did the special order for me) and after talking to the folks in parts he said the he wasn't certain that it would be physically possible, that the bolt pattern that comes with the Reserve/BL might be different than what comes with base Premier (the former coming only with 21" or 22", the later only with 19" or 20" wheels). But this doesn't really make sense to me. For instance, I know people in the snow belt often get smaller wheels/higher profile snow tires that they put on their vehicles in the winter months. So it must be possible. Really annoyed by automakers trying to force people like me into low profile tires. Need to do a little more research on this. EDIT: One more thing. The owner continued to be very frustrated with supply. It is almost impossible for them to keep vehicles on the lot for folks who come by and just want to get into a car. He knows that FMC is trying to push their customers all -- or as nearly all as possible -- into special ordering, but while that works well for people like me who can wait it's not what everyone wants to do with shopping for a new car. He put in a special order for a neighbor of his last October for a Corsair (she currently has an Audi), but it is still not built. ...though Lincoln promises it will be, Real Soon Now.

Not crazy about the new 2024 Nautilus being built (at least for now) in China and imported to North America (even though I'm going in tomorrow to put down a deposit on one), but I'll take that over buying one built in the Chicago plant. It's risky enough buying a first year model -- I can do without the risk of the Chicago facility botching up the build, as they so often do.

Think you mean '23 Nautilus. The 2024's don't start shipping for another 8 months or so.

The new 2024 Nautilus actually has 3 screens. Two are the information screens that stretch across the entire dash. They are not meant to be touched. While driving I doubt you could even reach them. The third is a big input (and info) screen in the usual location that you use to control features of the car and to set up what is displayed on the info screens. The left half of the left top screen is for the usual driver information: speed, fuel, tach and such. It is so high and close to the windshield that no head-up display is needed. The right half of the left top screen you'll probably want to use for navigation. The left part of the right screen (I think it is broken into three sections for display purposes) you'll most likely want to set up for displaying audio. The other two portions, well as I understand it there are still a number of options for display. Clock, weather, etc. Honestly, it really is a nice set-up that answers well the question of recent years: how do I position the screen so that it is high enough to safely view while driving, while still being something that a driver can easily and safely reach? I expect we'll start to see in other Lincolns.

Because their products aren't what you are looking for, so it makes sense for you to look elsewhere. Some folks really want a car, but Lincoln doesn't make those anymore (and Ford barely does). Some folks want driving excitement in their high center-of-gravity crossovers, so best for them to go to BMW who really does try to tweak the laws of physics to deliver that, and does a reasonable job at it -- Lincoln products are oriented around driving comfort. Some folks want their their neighbors to be envious of their purchase, so they should go for Mercedes or Range Rover (in the latter case paying in part for the vehicle's serious off-road capabilities, as if more than .01% of Range Rover owners ever take their $100,000+ vehicles into the mud). And some folks just don't like the look of Lincoln's current external or internal designs -- there's nothing more subjective in a vehicle than what folks thinks looks good -- so they should go with a vehicle that looks more like what they want that vehicle to look like, whatever that is. Maybe a Genesis (I actually love the look of the GV80's front end, but many hate it) or Range Rover (love the clean exterior design which some find bland and their interiors are just as good as MB or Lincoln, in my view). Many don't want so many interior screens or want more physical buttons (I can agree on the latter, but good luck on finding that these days in any of the new models coming out). Some want BEVs, and sadly Lincoln doesn't have those yet -- really too bad about the Rivian-derived product -- but they are working on that. Some just want more variety, and I agree, 4 vehicles isn't much to choose from. ...and to be delicate, I assume you meant six figures income, not six figures net worth. If you are retired and all you have in savings and investments to live out the rest of your life is a few hundred thousand dollars to provide a modest annual income, you'd better be pinching those pennies at every opportunity.

As long as they will be bringing in the promised BEVs, it makes sense to stick with ICE based products as well and let the market decide. As mentioned elsewhere here, I'm heading into my Lincoln dealership on Friday to finalize as order for the 2024 Nautilus and to plop down my deposit. Lincoln has made mistakes over the years, and continues to in my view (don't think 4 products that almost became 3 is enough to sustain a modern luxury make), but honestly since the Continental they have been killing it with their interiors, and the design of the all-new 2024 Nautilus inside and out is just stunning. Though granted, style is very much an eye of the beholder thing. BlueCruise is probably the best system of its type in the world and I like the design where you see the drivers information above a lower-positioned and smaller steering wheel. That is exactly my preferred driving set-up. Also, being able to have the navigation map out along with audio information and one or two other things is great. My wife is always switching around satellite channels when I'm trying to follow the map and it drives me crazy. I'm hoping that the new Google-based infotainment system is a big step forward as well. I have never before done a factory order on a vehicle I hadn't been able to test drive yet, but that's what I'm doing with this one. Sure, it's always a risk buying a first-year model with systems never before seen in the wild, but I'm choosing to hope for the best.

Well, I decided to pull the trigger. Heading into my Lincoln dealer (East West Lincoln) on Friday to walk them through the build and plunk down my $1,500 deposit. Black Label with the redwood interior. I'm hoping for at least a little wiggle on price and for their agreement to swap out the oversized wheels/low-profile tires for 19" or 20" wheels. (They did this for me before.)

Largely agree, but a couple of comments. First, starting with the all-new 2024 Nautilus, Lincoln now calls it "Lincoln BlueCruise." They decided it had much better branding and was better known. And, well, BlueCruise just trips off the lips in the way that ActiveGlide never could. Second, while I agree that Lincoln has found a niche in focusing on a more quiet and disconnected drive experience (what Lexus once had in its early days), the one thing that bugs me about this is that like almost everyone else (significantly, excluding Mercedes), Lincoln also forces its customers into increasingly over-sized wheels with diminishing-profile tires the more expensive trims you get. Gone are the days when larger wheels were something that you could opt into or out of. Big wheels/low profile tires might look nifty, but they make the ride noticeably rougher and are prone to wheel and tire damage from potholes and curbs.