igor Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355721 read posts by Fourcam330 .. he claims direct inside sources claims that the 4,6l 400hp engine has been dead for over a year. that what Ford will probably do is a similar 5.4l V8 getting about 380hp. The 4,6l was getting only about 330hp, and needed some expensive tech to make it more ... something that killed it. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSFan00 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Back in the mid-90's that engine made about 300 in the 4v variant. Throw a supercharger on it and away you go. Of course, the Mark VIII/Marauder motors were not exactly high-endurance reliability kings either...but it's not like it needs "high tech" tweaks to get beyond what it did 10 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=355721 read posts by Fourcam330 .. he claims direct inside sources claims that the 4,6l 400hp engine has been dead for over a year. that what Ford will probably do is a similar 5.4l V8 getting about 380hp. The 4,6l was getting only about 330hp, and needed some expensive tech to make it more ... something that killed it. Igor When I saw the 400HP 4.6, I was leery. It really doesn't make sense. Ford already has a V8 capable of 400HP in NA form, the 32V DOHC 5.4L. It made an under-rated 385HP in the 2000 Cobra R. A higher compression non supercharged version of the GT500 engine should make at least 380HP on 87 octane with no problem. Hell, a 3V SOHC all aluminum 5.4 should be good for at least 350HP. Plus the 5.4 fits in the S197 pretty easily. I don't really care which one they use. I just want to see a 350+ HP Mustang that is more readily available then the GT500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 The non-emissions legal 5.0L cammer just makes 400, no way can they get that much out of a N/A 4.6L. I don't know where that info originated but they were wrong.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admiral Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 The non-emissions legal 5.0L cammer just makes 400, no way can they get that much out of a N/A 4.6L. I don't know where that info originated but they were wrong.. Why can't they make 400 hp from 4.6 liters? Honda engines routinly breach the 100hp/liter gold standard. Personally, I think a 400 plus hp 4.6 DOHC with an 8,000 rpm redline would be awesome. I'd much rather have a high power 4.6 than a 5.4. I've never really liked the 5.4; it's too slow to rev with that 4.17" stroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Why can't they make 400 hp from 4.6 liters? Honda engines routinly breach the 100hp/liter gold standard. Personally, I think a 400 plus hp 4.6 DOHC with an 8,000 rpm redline would be awesome. I'd much rather have a high power 4.6 than a 5.4. I've never really liked the 5.4; it's too slow to rev with that 4.17" stroke. Why not? It starts with an F, ends with a D.. Really, the tiny little bores just don't seem to make power N/A, and Ford won't build an 8,000rpm dual VVT 4.6 with variable intake and high compression that would be needed to do so. Audi gets 420 out of their N/A 4.2, but it has all the tricks, DI, dual VVT, 12.5/1 compression if I remember correctly, 8200 rpm redline? So yea, it takes more than just slapping the deep breathing GT heads on a 4.6 to make 400 horsepower. It's like throwing a set of CNC'd race heads on a stock 5.0, it's got to have the supporting hardware to get the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealmrmustang Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Why not? It starts with an F, ends with a D.. Really, the tiny little bores just don't seem to make power N/A, and Ford won't build an 8,000rpm dual VVT 4.6 with variable intake and high compression that would be needed to do so. Audi gets 420 out of their N/A 4.2, but it has all the tricks, DI, dual VVT, 12.5/1 compression if I remember correctly, 8200 rpm redline? So yea, it takes more than just slapping the deep breathing GT heads on a 4.6 to make 400 horsepower. It's like throwing a set of CNC'd race heads on a stock 5.0, it's got to have the supporting hardware to get the job done. Bravo!! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted January 29, 2007 Author Share Posted January 29, 2007 Why not? It starts with an F, ends with a D.. Really, the tiny little bores just don't seem to make power N/A, and Ford won't build an 8,000rpm dual VVT 4.6 with variable intake and high compression that would be needed to do so. Audi gets 420 out of their N/A 4.2, but it has all the tricks, DI, dual VVT, 12.5/1 compression if I remember correctly, 8200 rpm redline? So yea, it takes more than just slapping the deep breathing GT heads on a 4.6 to make 400 horsepower. It's like throwing a set of CNC'd race heads on a stock 5.0, it's got to have the supporting hardware to get the job done. good point .. I guess we should be happy that the BOSS engines will have full VVT (not jusdt VCT) and DI is under consideration (which means that even if the engines debut without it (see D35) they will be engineered to accept it and use it well down the road ... that should give them legs to grow in the future. The BOSS heads are reportedly 2v only thought - which is little disappointing, but apparently the smaller stroke and biggerbore of the BOOS engines does nto need multi valve as much ad the MOD/Triton does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hemiman Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 good point .. I guess we should be happy that the BOSS engines will have full VVT (not jusdt VCT) and DI is under consideration (which means that even if the engines debut without it (see D35) they will be engineered to accept it and use it well down the road ... that should give them legs to grow in the future. The BOSS heads are reportedly 2v only thought - which is little disappointing, but apparently the smaller stroke and biggerbore of the BOOS engines does nto need multi valve as much ad the MOD/Triton does. 2V isn't so bad, the 427 SOHC made 657 HP on 2V and the Trans-Am spec Boss 302 made 485 HP. Nice numbers for any engine, but at a price of race only drivability. Modern electronics could probably tame these engines a little. But to get the deep breathing needed to support this HP AND have cam profiles that provide street drivability, you'll have to go to a multi valve head, as well as VVT on both cams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 The non-emissions legal 5.0L cammer just makes 400, no way can they get that much out of a N/A 4.6L. I don't know where that info originated but they were wrong.. I thought the Cammer 5.0 was rated 425 HP in basic crate configuration? I believe the 5.0 Cammers in the FR500C's are making well in excess of 450. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildosvt Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Inserting poor bore spacing in this topic due to the need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzler Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 Whatever happened to that Hydraulic hybrid system Ford was testing on its trucks. Something like that hooked up behind a mustang transmission would give you the feel of waaaay more than 400HP, not require a new transmission, and make all the environmentalists all weepy happy. Screw 400HP all day every day, just bring on the 'moment of joy' booster. Oh, and lets call it an alternative driveline... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 29, 2007 Share Posted January 29, 2007 (edited) Why not just mass produce the 5.4 4V. FOA has had hand built versions of these for 4 years now. With 10:1 compression and a relatively standard 3V bottom end 350 Hp @ 5200 is a snap on regular ULP. The Boss 290 (385Hp @5500)has better rods and 11:1 pistons and headers to let it rev. Just think of it like a mini 454. FOA actually kept the HP down to boost low end torque for the heavy Falcon (V8 = 3960 lb) Both these setups are soft and reliable, Im'm sure NA could develop much more HP . Edited January 29, 2007 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiehaskell Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 I thought the Cammer 5.0 was rated 425 HP in basic crate configuration? I believe the 5.0 Cammers in the FR500C's are making well in excess of 450.Go here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/crateengine/modularcobra.asp 400hp & 365 lb-ft. The Cammer also uses 11.0:1 compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoss96racing Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) Whatever happened to that Hydraulic hybrid system Ford was testing on its trucks. Something like that hooked up behind a mustang transmission would give you the feel of waaaay more than 400HP, not require a new transmission, and make all the environmentalists all weepy happy. Screw 400HP all day every day, just bring on the 'moment of joy' booster. Oh, and lets call it an alternative driveline... uhh... where would you put all the hydraulic tanks and the pumps for the system in a mustang... plus the added weight would make it a little rough in the handling department Edited January 30, 2007 by hoss96racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzler Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 uhh... where would you put all the hydraulic tanks and the pumps for the system in a mustang... plus the added weight would make it a little rough in the handling department Just think of them as big NOS tanks. The only people who would pay actual money for a 400HP mustang, actual EXTRA money, are the boy-racer types. I doubt they'd miss a back seat, or most of the trunk. They'd probably love the whooshing, clanking, and general audio mayhem occurring behind their heads. They could paint everything in dayglo colours and chrome all the hold-down straps. Coolio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Just think of them as big NOS tanks. The only people who would pay actual money for a 400HP mustang, actual EXTRA money, are the boy-racer types. I doubt they'd miss a back seat, or most of the trunk. They'd probably love the whooshing, clanking, and general audio mayhem occurring behind their heads. They could paint everything in dayglo colours and chrome all the hold-down straps. Coolio. The boy racer types could only dream of being able to AFFORD a 400 HP Mustang. There are certainly easier ways to achieve 400 HP than by shoving a bunch of unproven technological gizmos into the trunk and back seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Whatever happened to that Hydraulic hybrid system Ford was testing on its trucks. Something like that hooked up behind a mustang transmission would give you the feel of waaaay more than 400HP, not require a new transmission, and make all the environmentalists all weepy happy. Screw 400HP all day every day, just bring on the 'moment of joy' booster. Oh, and lets call it an alternative driveline... Just think of them as big NOS tanks. The only people who would pay actual money for a 400HP mustang, actual EXTRA money, are the boy-racer types. I doubt they'd miss a back seat, or most of the trunk. They'd probably love the whooshing, clanking, and general audio mayhem occurring behind their heads. They could paint everything in dayglo colours and chrome all the hold-down straps. Coolio. Are you for real? There are applications for Hydraulic Hybrids and Hydraulic Launch Assist, but not in a pony car. They only "alternative driveline" that should ever go in a pony car would maybe be a twin turbo V6 or an Electric Hybrid/V6 set-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) Why not? It starts with an F, ends with a D.. Really, the tiny little bores just don't seem to make power N/A, and Ford won't build an 8,000rpm dual VVT 4.6 with variable intake and high compression that would be needed to do so. Audi gets 420 out of their N/A 4.2, but it has all the tricks, DI, dual VVT, 12.5/1 compression if I remember correctly, 8200 rpm redline? So yea, it takes more than just slapping the deep breathing GT heads on a 4.6 to make 400 horsepower. It's like throwing a set of CNC'd race heads on a stock 5.0, it's got to have the supporting hardware to get the job done. Blah, blah, blah. Why don't you go look up the bore and stroke for the BMW M3 I-6, the Honda S2000 I-4 or the Ferrari 360 Modena V-8 before talking about tiny bores not making power n/a. Seriously, educate yourself. Multivalve tech allows for plenty of power n/a from small bores. The problem is FORD wasn't WILLING to develop an engine from scratch to make a high performance engine for a Mustang only application. They would probably need to design cylinder heads, an intake, and cams specific to the application, and they would probably need trick likes VVT on both sets of cams to make 400 emissions legal hp from a 4.6. Actually, all of the above is available straight from the FRPP catalog but those FR500 cams probably wouldn't meet emissions so they'd need to find 20 horsepower somewhere else. Regardless, the engines will do it Ford just isn't willing. The aftermarket has proven these engines will EASILY eclipse 400 flywheel horsepower n/a. There are 530-540 horsepower 5.0 Cammers running around. Edited January 30, 2007 by White99GT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) Go here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/crateengine/modularcobra.asp 400hp & 365 lb-ft. The Cammer also uses 11.0:1 compression. **Ahem** M-6007-T50EA* The 5.0L DOHC 4-valve “Cammer” engine is an upgraded variant of the 4.6L DOHC 4-valve Mustang Cobra engine, with numerous changes for improved power and durability. This engine is completely electronically managed. As part of the “Cammer” crate engine program, a stand-alone harness and engine management computer will be available separately. This will allow the engine to be used for many applications. With proper headers (not included) and low restriction air intake and vehicle exhaust systems, the engine will exceed 400 Bhp and have a very broad torque curve, peaking over 365 ft./lbs. Ford would have to do be doing something seriously wrong for an 11:1 big bore with the FR500 intake, heads and cams to only make 400 flywheel horsepower. Setups like this usually make well over 400 rwhp. Naz on SVTPerformance is making 459 rwhp (n/a) with the same setup in a '99 Cobra, only difference is that he ported his heads he has the same displacement, compression, cams and intake. Edited January 30, 2007 by White99GT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Remember, true, full VVT will make up for all sorts of "sins" like incredibly big valves, barely streetable base cam profile, larger rocker ratios (where applicable), etc. Using Honda's i-VTEC as an example, where they have variable lift added to the cariable cam timing, or Toyota's VVTi system, you can have a cam that is basically not streetable be made streetable at low rpms and at other conditions and then regress to its true ugly form at higher engine speeds. If Ford ever finished their development work on the solenoid valve train, they could have complete control over timing, lift and duration and could run some extremely obnoxious setups on their engines, coupled with variable compression techniques, they could have an engine switch to the atkinson cycle when going down the highway and back to a normal cycle when the torque is needed. And all of the above only gets magnified when combined with direct fuel injection. It only requires one thing that ford doesn't currently have, money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzler Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 (edited) . Edited January 30, 2007 by Sizzler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzler Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 *AHEM* M-6007-T50EA: $15,000 PLUS the sold-separately harness and ECM PLUS installation, plus the cost of a replacement vehicle because the package isn't emissions-legal... Call it $20,000 package leaving you with a toy that can't be driven on the street. I don't think that's what these benchracers are looking for. They want something they can pay for out of their piggybank and drive down to the Dog 'N Suds to look cool in and talk about "400HP" and stuff. For $20K, just get a blower... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White99GT Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 *AHEM* M-6007-T50EA: $15,000 PLUS the sold-separately harness and ECM PLUS installation, plus the cost of a replacement vehicle because the package isn't emissions-legal... Call it $20,000 package leaving you with a toy that can't be driven on the street. I don't think that's what these benchracers are looking for. They want something they can pay for out of their piggybank and drive down to the Dog 'N Suds to look cool in and talk about "400HP" and stuff. For $20K, just get a blower... Hey, it's not the engine's fault Ford overcharges for them and makes the intake manifold out of magnesium to jack the price up even more. You can create a 5.0L Cammer in the aftermarket with better internals for about $10K. It's alot of money, but it's a small volume one off engine with a $3,100 magnesium intake manifold. Assembled big bore bottom end for $4,095 - http://www.modularperformance.com/shortblocks.htm FR500 cylinder heads for $795 each - http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=5398 FR500 cam kit, includes 32 valve springs, 32 rocker arms, 32 valves, 32 valve stem seals, 4 camshaft for $1,495 - http://www.speedconcepts.net/product_info....cba24664ea4efcd The intake is the killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sizzler Posted January 30, 2007 Share Posted January 30, 2007 Hey, it's not the engine's fault Ford overcharges for them and makes the intake manifold out of magnesium to jack the price up even more. You can create a 5.0L Cammer in the aftermarket with better internals for about $10K. It's alot of money, but it's a small volume one off engine with a $3,100 magnesium intake manifold. Assembled big bore bottom end for $4,095 - http://www.modularperformance.com/shortblocks.htm FR500 cylinder heads for $795 each - http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_...rtKeyField=5398 FR500 cam kit, includes 32 valve springs, 32 rocker arms, 32 valves, 32 valve stem seals, 4 camshaft for $1,495 - http://www.speedconcepts.net/product_info....cba24664ea4efcd The intake is the killer. I did the math using your numbers and I get $10,280...not including a harness or the specially calibrated ECM, another $1,500 I'm guessing, plus sundries, and you're at $12K. Seriously, get a blower. New shortblock at $4K and the blower stuff at another $4K and you're money and power ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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