Joe771476 Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I thought they just took out a huge loan. Why sell a profitable unit for basically peanuts...........for less than 2 years of revenue!? It's reminiscent of when they sold the heavy truck line for nothing! After 100 years in the biz they should be acquiring, not emaciating the company! I think they're all done. I've been a huge fan for 50 years, but they're just not using their heads anymore! Again............very sad. End of an era. I guess I'll have to become a GM fan. Forty years ago I would have had you shoot me for such a thought! Now it's not so far-fetched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 I thought they just took out a huge loan. Why sell a profitable unit for basically peanuts...........for less than 2 years of revenue!? It's reminiscent of when they sold the heavy truck line for nothing! After 100 years in the biz they should be acquiring, not emaciating the company! I think they're all done. I've been a huge fan for 50 years, but they're just not using their heads anymore! Again............very sad. End of an era. I guess I'll have to become a GM fan. Forty years ago I would have had you shoot me for such a thought! Now it's not so far-fetched. because Ford had too many luxury marquees ... without AM in the portfolio, Jaguar will be moved close to its place, and Lincoln will finally rise to full luxury brand (possibly global). The sale had nothing to do with money - that is why it was not sold to highest bidder - but a reputable racing company that will take care of it. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo2079 Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Probably a good move on their part.... although I hated to see them do it. It somehow gave Ford more legitimacy to have AM under their umbrella. At least from a performance point of view. Hopefully this will allow Jag to do whatever it needs to do to move back up the luxury/performance ladder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 because Ford had too many luxury marquees ... without AM in the portfolio, Jaguar will be moved close to its place, and Lincoln will finally rise to full luxury brand (possibly global). The sale had nothing to do with money - that is why it was not sold to highest bidder - but a reputable racing company that will take care of it. Igor I really think it is simply BS when everyone says "Now Jaguar can move up and then Lincoln can move up" Like AM presence caused Ford to totally neglect Lincoln and Jaguar? Lincoln and Jaguar are both faiing miserably at their current price range, let's fix that before conjuring up the ladder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Okay. Nobody's going to be buying $200k Jags. Jaguar and AM have never ever sold in comparable price ranges, And selling AM and APCO was a heckuvalot smarter than selling half of Ford Credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Okay. Nobody's going to be buying $200k Jags. Jaguar and AM have never ever sold in comparable price ranges, And selling AM and APCO was a heckuvalot smarter than selling half of Ford Credit. Did Ford really need 843M though? I mean that is chump change in the auto business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 843M isn't chump change anywhere. Except maybe the Pentagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 843M isn't chump change anywhere. Except maybe the Pentagon. well it is what? .7 % of Fords yearly revenue? That is just a guess I don't know their yearlyrevenue but I would guess at about 160B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JW Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 843M isn't chump change anywhere. Except maybe the Pentagon. Yeah, that's what, four toilet seats and a hammer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Yeah, that's what, four toilet seats and a hammer? Only if your shopping at wal*mart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 well it is what? .7 % of Fords yearly revenue? That is just a guess I don't know their yearlyrevenue but I would guess at about 160B The better metric would be profit, not revenue. And Ford's annual revenue is a fair bit more than 160B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) Premier Automotive Group (PAG): For 2006, PAG reported a full-year pre-tax loss of $327 million, compared to a pre-tax loss of $89 million a year ago. The decline is more than explained by prior model warranty accrual adjustments at Jaguar and Land Rover and unfavorable currency exchange rates, partially offset by other cost reductions and favorable mix and pricing. Full-year sales for the group totaled $30 billion, compared to $30.3 billion in 2005. In the fourth quarter, PAG reported a pre-tax profit of $191 million, an improvement of $129 million compared to the year-ago period. This improvement primarily reflected favorable volume and mix at Volvo due to the introduction of new products, and favorable pricing at Jaguar and Land Rover, partially offset by the effect of a weaker U.S. dollar against key European currencies. Fourth-quarter sales totaled $8.6 billion, compared to $8 billion a year ago. Reference: http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?...p;make_id=trust I thought this might clear up some of the PAG discussion: 2005 Revenue: $30.3 B, Loss: $89 M 2006 Revenue: $30 B, Loss: $327 M (prior model warranty accrual adjustments at Jaguar and Land Rover, unfavorable exchange rates) Dec 1/4 2005 Revenue: $8 B, Profit: $129 M Dec 1/4 2006 Revenue: $8.6 B, Profit: $191 M A the moment PAG is about 1/5th of Ford's total sales value. You would think with annual sales of $30 Billion and an improvement in internal efficiency, profit must be coming soon. I'm not sure how much AMs sell for but I don't think they would be a sizeable chunk of the total sales , even if they sold all 7,000 AMs for $200K, that's still $1.4 Billion in sales but, is there about $300 M profit there? Sales dipped to a few dozen in 1992 but climbed to about 7,000 last year. You can get a new Aston Martin for about $110,000 but the price can run as high as $270,000, according to Beau Boeckmann, vice president of Galpin Motors in North Hills, Calif., one of Aston Martin's top dealers.Reference: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070312/ap_on_...rd_aston_martin So strictly speaking, Ford off loaded Astin Martin for around 12-15 months sales value, why so little? I suppose on top of the Cash, selling 7,000 V12 engines/year and retaining about a 8% stake is good compensation. Edited March 14, 2007 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) The industry is, even in the best of times, a low margin affair. Hence the low selling price. It was probably sold for something like 10x anticipated 2007 profits. The great quest for profit from PAG has been going on for some time now. The thing is, BMW milked LR for money, before giving them an incredibly buggy flagship model and an incredibly uncompetitive entry level model, (while leaving the hideously unreliable Discovery alone for the entire tenure of their ownership). Ford botched Jaguar in the late 90s, and Volvo needed a huge infusion of cash for new product a couple years back. At one point in time, PAG was targeted to provide (IIRC) 25% of Ford's profit. Instead it's been a non-stop crisis. Exchange rate issues haven't helped either (unlike BMW and MB, there are no U.S. PAG assembly plants). It appears to be getting better, what with a new LR lineup, a new Volvo lineup, and a slow transition at Jaguar. Only time will tell, though. Edited March 14, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Did Ford really need 843M though? I mean that is chump change in the auto business. uh-huh.... so they can sell it... and get that money or keep it and continue to pump money into it. Because the reality is... AM will never make money. Beause of its family relationship, it never paid its fair share of R&D costs. So any profits made were grossly overreported and not real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Yeah, Ford sure did mismanage Aston...... The took a brand that was on the brink of death, and turned it into something profitable and reliable. Stupid Ford management. I hate the fact that Aston is no longer in the company's portfolio, but lets face it when it comes time for a major overhaul to keep the brand competitive Ford won't be able to do it. As far as I'm concerned it would have been stupid to keep AM around, especially when you have X Types, Town Cars and Rangers running around as they do. That money could be used to further Ford's engine development, or alot for the seamless introduction of the C2 when it begins production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Okay. Nobody's going to be buying $200k Jags. Jaguar and AM have never ever sold in comparable price ranges, And selling AM and APCO was a heckuvalot smarter than selling half of Ford Credit. Are we forgetting the XJ220? It sold for well OVER $200K. Not exactly a successful car, but it does prove that Jaguar can be taken seriously at that price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 In the end, Ford secured about several years worth of direct operational profits from AM, and, a steady revenue source by providing them engines( and with their retained ownership stake, that should likely continue) and other components. This, in turn, leaves less for ford management to worry about, and allows them to focus more on their problem child (Jaguar) and gives them, on paper at least, more opportunity with Jag without stepping on AMs feet. There was no forcast on earth that had AM providing loads more profits in the future (5 years) than they do now, so, that isn't much lost opportunity cost either. This is a good move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Jaguar can easily go head to head with Bentley. That will leave space for Lincoln to kick total ass like it used to 46 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Jaguar can easily go head to head with Bentley. That will leave space for Lincoln to kick total ass like it used to 46 years ago. Ford still has absolutely no desire to turn lincoln into anything, there is no indication that they will do away with gussying up Fords. Lincoln may finally gets its own sheetmetal but how down right pathetic is it that it doesn't in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Are we forgetting the XJ220? It sold for well OVER $200K. Not exactly a successful car, but it does prove that Jaguar can be taken seriously at that price point. Oh I remember the XJ220, IMO, the prettiest 200mph+ car until the Ford GT. But TWR built them, and took a bath on them when they didn't sell anywhere near as expected. A whole bunch ended up in a U.S. spec series, which is kind of funny seeing they weren't street legal here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Oh I remember the XJ220, IMO, the prettiest 200mph+ car until the Ford GT. But TWR built them, and took a bath on them when they didn't sell anywhere near as expected. A whole bunch ended up in a U.S. spec series, which is kind of funny seeing they weren't street legal here. I always loved the XJ220, I saw one on the road here in L.A. last year for the first time ever, what an incredible looking car, the coolest thing is the guy showed off a bit and kept falling back like 500 feet behind us and then blowing past us like a rocket, it's incredible how those things can move with 80's technology and a V6.. I always wished Jaguar would build another one when they get back into better shape, they could call it the XJ250 for it's new top speed.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 ............... How did he get that thing registered in CA? They were little more than LeMans prototypes wrapped up in svelte Jaguar skin..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted March 14, 2007 Author Share Posted March 14, 2007 I was joshin' a bit about defecting to GM. But sometimes I just get frustrated! As far as $200K Jags: That's what they need! The brand has to have some mystique! Okay, maybe more like $125K. But nothing less than $100K! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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