Ford: Quality equal to Toyota

[RichardJensen]

You are not an "independent 3rd party" if you are paid to do your polling by a company you are polling about, as was "the RDA group" -- an organization I've never heard of before this, and hardly a respected organization like JD Powers or Consumer Reports. Heck, even Strategic Vision has some credibility.

Strategic Vision doesn't have much credibility, IMO.

 

BTW, this survey revealed that Honda's quality was a fair bit better than Toyota, Ford, and Nissan.

 

Not exactly the results that a biased company would furnish to the outfit paying their bills, unless you want to play the old, "Well, they didn't want it to LOOK biased" thing, in which case, there's no point in commissioning a biased study in the first place.

[Noah Harbinger]

Strategic Vision doesn't have much credibility, IMO.

 

They do partisan-funded polls, almost always favoring republicans, but they are at least on the radar of people who follow the polls.

 

BTW, this survey revealed that Honda's quality was a fair bit better than Toyota, Ford, and Nissan.

 

Not exactly the results that a biased company would furnish to the outfit paying their bills, unless you want to play the old, "Well, they didn't want it to LOOK biased" thing, in which case, there's no point in commissioning a biased study in the first place.

 

I don't particularly think there's any reason to doubt their results, I'm just saying I don't have any reason to trust them apart from how well they align with other sources (i.e. consumer reports' recent praise).

 

Though (now that I actually read the article) what is probably significant to me is that the survey is showing improvement relative to previous results. Any poll fiend will tell you trends in the same poll are more important than the absolute numbers from any given poll.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

If your intention is to keep the American economy humming, wouldn't it be better to purchase a product that contributed to it?

Edited April 19, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Ford Jellymoulds]

If your intention is to keep the American economy humming, wouldn't it be better to purchase a product that contributed to it?

 

Ford build cars in Europe, if they shut down production lines down today in Europe nobody would buy Ford cars in Europe = Death of Fords in Europe = No more profits from FOE = Void filled by Toyota = No competition for Toyota = Sky high car prices for the buyer once Toyota owns the local market. Cars are going the same way as the Japanese Motorcycle industry but just lagging a bit behind in the Timeline. Ford or Jap Crap?? Crap decision by Ford not to open a plant in Detroit as well as Mexico, as a lot of the components in the Fusion are made in the US, US Toyotas are full of components made in Nippon. If Ford had built two Fusion Plants with in one in Detroit with a Made in the USA tag on it, it would now be eating into Toyota Sales PROFITS. No long term thinking by Ford Management when they set up production in Mexico only.

Edited April 19, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[NickF1011]

Ford build cars in Europe, if they shut down production lines down today in Europe nobody would buy Ford cars in Europe = Death of Fords in Europe = No more profits from FOE = Void filled by Toyota = No competition for Toyota = Sky high car prices for the buyer once Toyota owns the local market. Cars are going the same way as the Japanese Motorcycle industry but just lagging a bit behind in the Timeline. Ford or Jap Crap?? Crap decision by Ford not to open a plant in Detroit as well as Mexico, as a lot of the components in the Fusion are made in the US, US Toyotas are full of components made in Nippon.

 

:beatdeadhorse:

 

I don't really see motorcycle prices going sky high because the Japanese own the sport bike market. It wouldn't happen with cars either. Have electronics gotten more expensive since the Japanese have dominated much of the industry? No, they've actually gotten significantly CHEAPER.

 

Additionally, there are a lot more automakers than just Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Toyota. Just because one of the Big 3 goes away doesn't automatically mean Toyota will be able to control prices in the market. All of the television makers in the US went out of business or were bought out. Does Sony suddenly control prices of televisions? Hardly.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

:beatdeadhorse:

 

I don't really see motorcycle prices going sky high because the Japanese own the sport bike market. It wouldn't happen with cars either. Have electronics gotten more expensive since the Japanese have dominated much of the industry? No, they've actually gotten significantly CHEAPER.

 

Additionally, there are a lot more automakers than just Ford, GM, Chrysler, and Toyota. Just because one of the Big 3 goes away doesn't automatically mean Toyota will be able to control prices in the market. All of the television makers in the US went out of business or were bought out. Does Sony suddenly control prices of televisions? Hardly.

 

Nobody buys Toyota's in Europe, most don't knows what a Toyota Camry is? Where do the Japanese build Motorcycles Nick, so l don't think to many Japanese motorcycle assembly workers spend there pay in the US. You sound you are a price tart that Nick giving away your jobs in the process. Future will look bleak for kids growing up in the US with folk like you around. I would rather ride a Harley or a Duke than a rin tin tin Jap crap motorcycle, Japanese spare parts are where the money is made, it's not cheap shipping them in from Nippon.

Edited April 19, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[NickF1011]

Nobody buys Toyota's in Europe, most don't knows what a Toyota Camry is? Where do the Japanese build Motorcycles Nick, so l don't think to many Japanese motorcycle assembly workers spend there pay in the US. You sound you are a price tart that Nick giving away your jobs in the process. Future will look bleak for kids growing up in the US with folk like you around.

 

No, I'm just saying your argument that Ford going out of business (a rather ridiculous assumption in itself) would lead to Toyota controlling the market and raising prices is flat out absurd.

 

I own two cars. Both were assembled in the US. Don't go attempting to label me. It doesn't make you look any smarter.

[falconman13]

Where do the Japanese build Motorcycles Nick, so l don't think to many Japanese motorcycle assembly workers spend there pay in the US.

I dont know about all Japanese Motorcycles, But Honda builds at least some, if not all in Ohio.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

No, I'm just saying your argument that Ford going out of business (a rather ridiculous assumption in itself) would lead to Toyota controlling the market and raising prices is flat out absurd.

 

I own two cars. Both were assembled in the US. Don't go attempting to label me. It doesn't make you look any smarter.

 

I own 2 Fords built in the UK, and l dont buy Japanese electronic goods like you do Nick, so what’s that got to do with my main point. Why did Fords incompetent management at the time not open a Fusion plant in the US as well as Mexico to eat into Toyotas sales.

Edited April 19, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[NickF1011]

I own 2 Fords built in the UK, and l dont buy Japanese electronic goods like you do Nick, so what's that got to do with my main point. Why did Fords incompetent management at the time not open a Fusion plant in the US as well as Mexico to eat into Toyotas sales.

 

Yeah, I'm sure you own ZERO Japanese electronics.

 

Why not open a Fusion plant in the US as well as Mexico? Easy. Ford's not going to sell nearly enough Fusions to make such a proposition the LEAST bit fiscally possible. Ford barely runs ONE plant building CD3's at/near capacity. How in the hell would they be expected to run a SECOND plant in the same manner? It would make zero sense. Just because you BUILD more of a vehicle in no way indicates that you'll actually SELL more of a vehicle -- unless of course, you are Ford in the late 90's and you can dump $5000 on the hood of every one to make it move, in which case you lose money on every single one you sell.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Yeah, I'm sure you own ZERO Japanese electronics.

 

Why not open a Fusion plant in the US as well as Mexico? Easy. Ford's not going to sell nearly enough Fusions to make such a proposition the LEAST bit fiscally possible. Ford barely runs ONE plant building CD3's at/near capacity. How in the hell would they be expected to run a SECOND plant in the same manner? It would make zero sense. Just because you BUILD more of a vehicle in no way indicates that you'll actually SELL more of a vehicle -- unless of course, you are Ford in the late 90's and you can dump $5000 on the hood of every one to make it move, in which case you lose money on every single one you sell.

 

So Ford don't sell any Fusions in Mexico to make it pay it's way then Nick, so why don't they shut the line down in Mexico. I am not into electronic gadgets Nick, but do own a Motorola phone, l bought my Wife and Daughter an I-Pods and spend a bit to much on Snap-On Tools far, and have to many Funk Brothers 45's, it's a shame Ford don't build cars like they knocked out 45's, they are my only the foreign vices that l own Nick, l don’t know if they are Jap inside, but as long as it does not have a crap name like Sony on the front it does not bother me to much

 

I cant see any crappy Toyota holding it's price like a Mustang, and selling for the sought of price a Classic 60's Mustang will fetch at Barrett Jackson auction, or outlasting an old Motown Monster, like thousands that are still going strong and being used everyday in Cuba.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[NickF1011]

So Ford don't sell any Fusions in Mexico to make it pay it's way then Nick, so why don't they shut the line down in Mexico.

 

Huh? Ford sells the Fusion in Mexico. Sure don't sell a lot of them, but they sell them.

 

And even a single US plant selling the Fusion would likely do it at a loss when compared to building them in Mexico instead. Profit margins on midsize sedans are miniscule at best.

[Daryll40]

Kudos on the Fusion which is both a styling and an initial quality winner.

 

Unfortunately I agree with the prior comments, however, that it's long term durability that really is going to drive sales. Last year (and I am a Ford guy) when the choice was Mercury Mariner or Honda CRV for my teenage daughter to drive for 10 years, I remembered this and bot the CRV: (from Consumer's Reports)

 

 

"An 8 year old Honda has fewer defects/failures than an three year old Ford".

 

 

Great. Initial quality is a start. And I know you'll bash Consumer Reports as biased blah blah blah. But in the real world 7 and 8 year old and older Fords are worth nearly zilch while ToyHons that age still bring in a buck. Because people recognize that 100,000 miles on ToyHon is no big deal but on a GM/Ford/DCX you are playing roulette at best and buying constant aggravation at worst. It's better with trucks....Ford trucks have a pretty good reputation for durability. But the big SUV/Truck sales era is over.

 

I AM rooting for Ford but am also a realist with my personal finances.

[NickF1011]

Because people recognize that 100,000 miles on ToyHon is no big deal but on a GM/Ford/DCX you are playing roulette at best and buying constant aggravation at worst.

 

Oh give me a break. Anyone buying a used car with 100,000 miles on it from ANY manufacturer is just asking for trouble. If people BELIEVE a used ToyHon with 100K on it is a good value and will be completely reliable, send them my way...I have a bridge to sell them.

[MKII]

Nobody buys Toyota's in Europe, most don't knows what a Toyota Camry is?

 

Is that why Toyota is #6 out of the 10 top selling brands in Europe as of end of March 2007?

I agree with your Camry comment, Toyota tried selling this model in Europe, but decide to pull it of the market couple of years ago. Just not up to the Euro consumers needs.

 

http://www.jato.com/extFrameSet.asp?page=54

 

Good news for Ford as well "As well as being the UK’s best selling new car, the Ford Focus was also Europe’s throughout March with 51,789 units sold, ahead of the Opel/Vauxhall Astra with 51,557 units and Ford Fiesta with 50,657 – up 3.3% on the same month last year."

Edited April 19, 2007 by MKII

[LincolnFan]

Even though my Focus is the stripper model, I have to admit it's fucking good.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Is that why Toyota is #6 out of the 10 top selling brands in Europe as of end of March 2007?

I agree with your Camry comment, Toyota tried selling this model in Europe, but decide to pull it of the market couple of years ago. Just not up to the Euro consumers needs.

 

http://www.jato.com/extFrameSet.asp?page=54

 

Good news for Ford as well "As well as being the UK’s best selling new car, the Ford Focus was also Europe’s throughout March with 51,789 units sold, ahead of the Opel/Vauxhall Astra with 51,557 units and Ford Fiesta with 50,657 – up 3.3% on the same month last year."

 

Ford is Number 1 & 2 in the UK but it always was Number 1, 2, 3, 4, & 5 best seller in the UK for Decades, it is losing market share to the German and French made cars, you very rarely saw a French car on British roads back in the past. Vauxhall Astra is the No 1 best selling in Europe with the Renault Clio at number 2 these spots were also held by Fords in the past like the Classic Escort & Cortina, so Fords market share is sinking in Europe compared to the past despite heavy discounting by Fords at the moment which won't bring Ford much profit back to Ford, but is eating into market sale share, so it's not all bad. The only problem for Ford will be the future, as Toyota is embarking on massive plant opening expansion plan in Europe.

Here is a link to cars sales figures in Europe in 2006 if anybody is interested

 

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnew..._10008722.shtml

Edited April 19, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[sim]

Funny thing about that finfacts sales figures report - at the bottom it states, where actual data was not available, estimated data was used - but it doesnt state which data was estimated in that piece.

 

I had a Fiesta and 2 Escorts in my time in the UK when i was of driving age - all were used though, so wouldnt affect any sales figures! I did however like the Peugeot 106, and 306 - nice nippy cars as was the Renault Megane and i was thinking of considering those when i might eventually buy new. My family also had owned VW's and such during our time as they met our needs. I can definately see what you mean about losing market share though! Not sure quite what you can do about it, i dont know if they are undercutting on price, doing better on reliability or service, better ad campaigns or just that people arent being "patriotic" by buying British made (even if not owned) cars such as Ford/Vauxhall compared to the Euro imports - maybe they are going that way for a reason? I havent been in that market for at least 7 years now to get a good feel for it, at that time i recalled quite a few factories had or were being closed down at both major car manufacturers there.

[MKII]

13/04/07 PASSENGER CARS: First quarter soaring new EU Members’ registrations contrast with Western Europe’s slowdown

http://www.acea.be/files/PRPC-0307-TOTAL%20EUROPE-Final.xls

[Deanh]

Oh give me a break. Anyone buying a used car with 100,000 miles on it from ANY manufacturer is just asking for trouble. If people BELIEVE a used ToyHon with 100K on it is a good value and will be completely reliable, send them my way...I have a bridge to sell them.

have to agree with Nick here...I have LOTS of Ford high mile stories...180k Explorers, 200plus k Econolines......200k f150's.... 2 1/2 year old focus's w 85k ( my dad ) and one guy I'm surprized Ford didn't latch onto...he had a fleet of 15 Aerostars that had an average of 850k on them with not much more than trans rebuilds...and then he RE_SOLD em.....fact is Toyota came up with a FANTASTIC add campaign........FIRST!

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Toyota don't own the monopoly on reliability or high mileage, most Peugeot diesel engines go on for ever and are the best in the business, It's just the body that falls to bits first. l know of quite a few owners of old Fords that run on Unleaded that have made it past 200,000, and so many B-52 aged Motown Monster Detroit Iron dinosaurs still roam the streets of Cuba on a daily basis, whilst most Toyotas longevity don't extend much past 15 years max. Why are they perceived as reliable, probably because most car test reports are based on new cars coming out of the Factory with fewer defects due to a better quality control, long term they are no better than any other manufacturer, and are very costly when it comes to buying spare parts. Toyota has undercut Fords & GM in the past on price with cars that give a much better MPG. Ford are undercutting everyone in Europe on price at the moment winning market share, the Ford Focus is No 1 at the moment, most of the folk buying the Focus will find it just as reliable as a Toyota long term, and so will be coming back to Ford in the future to grab another reliable Ford in the Future, even if its cost a bit more to buy that Ford second time round. the Camry price tart will return to buy another 100,000 mile better MPG Camry that gave him good service before. Ford's first priority should be to build a Camry killer, beat it on Price & MPG. Ford already has the reliability and longevity built into its cars that match Toyota, so that is not a problem. Ford in the US get no help from it's government, Toyota bend every rule in the book to make a cheaper car, abuse staff with no terms and conditions, cheap set-up loans, using currency differences, Made in the USA flag (Until they have killed off the opposition Sony Style), . Ford and GM needs a bit of a helping hand from the spineless Government politicians (Don't care who is in power) to legislate against unfair way Japanese operate, rather than sit back do nothing and let it's own car industry go down the swanny. What's wrong with having a level playing field.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Daryll40]

There is no doubt that ToyHon plays whatever cards they can. Yet the Big 3 always do the same thing too.

 

As I stated originally, I agree that the Big 3 trucks in general and Ford trucks in particular are the best in terms of long term durability. There is no argument here. But in the mainstream middle market, the products were the Ford Contour/Mercury Mistake, Taurus-Sable that got no updating for a decade and Focus which, for whatever reason, just ain't a Corolla or Civic. It might be true that Ford is now approaching Japanese quality initially and in the long run, but the horse is out of the barn. And if you are going to bring up the surviving American cars in Cuba from the 1950s, then you also can't forget about an entire generation of now-peak-earning Americans who got screwed bigtime on Pintos, Vegas and Gremlins.

 

Too little too late. Even the Fusion, which seems to be (but not quite proven) in the Accord/Camry league, is built in MEXICO while Camry Accord are built in the USA. The world has changed and the glory years of the Big 3 are not coming back.

 

Again, I have AlWAYS had at least 1 Ford product, but honestly could not imagine an Escape/Mariner being as trouble free as a Honda CRV for a long term 10 year planned ownership period.

[Extreme4x4]

Hmmm, 2003 Mazda Tribute (same as Escape/Mariner) ES, AWD. Fully loaded.

 

Currently, 55K miles. Only warranty work done on the truck was a noise A/C compressor, and a digital display in my audiophile head unit, that was having problems. I fully expect this truck to be as reliable as the CRV or Rav, as I have worked on both (when we had our auto repair shop).

 

At least I know that I will never have to get a timing belt changed. LOL

[Ford Jellymoulds]

Only trouble the Japanese have not let Ford or GM play in the cards school in Nippon, so you cant win if you have been excluded for the last 30 years.

 

I don’t think the big earners would like to drive around today in an old 60 year old Cuban Ford, but surely you have got admire the longevity of them, if you fast forward to 2037, and if we still have the fuel left to run them, there will still be thousands of 2007 made Mustangs around, and not a single Camry left on the planet, Why?? So which is the better quality car, in my eyes it is the Mustang.

 

The glory days of the big three not coming back you say Darvll, l find that very depressing but a bit true.

Toyota are probably using the billions of dollars made from selling Camry’s in the States, nearly interest free loans to set up the factories from the Japanese governments to fund a massive expansion plan in Europe soon, which will eat FOE profits in the future. I don't think the French or Germans will buy Toyotas but the rest will. Very sad for future generations to come.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds

[NickF1011]

Only trouble the Japanese have not let Ford or GM play in the cards school in Nippon, so you cant win if you have been excluded for the last 30 years.

 

I don't think the big earners would like to drive around today in an old Cuban 60 year old Fords, but surely you have got admire the longevity of them, if you fast forward to 2037 and if we still have the fuel left to run them, there will still be thousands of 2007 made Mustangs around, and not a single Camry left on the planet, Why?? So what is the better quality car, in my eyes it is the Mustang.

 

I wouldn't say that the Mustang is better built than the Camry. Far from it, most likely. The difference is that many Mustang owners are passionate about cars and passionate about Mustangs specifically. Because of that passion, many Mustang owners are going to take care of their cars long past their expected lifespan so future generations can enjoy them. On the other hand, the Camry is seen as nothing more than transportation; a throw-away car. They are built well and they are reliable, but nobody buys a Camry out of passion for the nameplate and therefore nobody has no desire whatsoever to keep it around for longer than it serves its purpose as basic transportation.