MKII Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Oh man. Everytime this Focus thread gets started up its the same old big stupid assed argument as the last time. There's always some bunch of guys that actually thinks you can import a Focus ST and sell it here for 25 grand. It can't be done guys!!! Ok, it's just not economically feasible.Look. Now first of all I don't see where you're being charged sales tax in that price tag so if you do get charged sales tax it's going to be in addition to the price you see here. So this notion about high tax rates in the UK is out, rejected, disproven, gone, seeya bye. It doesn't matter how you look at it, this car is nearly 24 thousand pounds and in United States dollars that is over 47 grand. If you could import the damn thing from the UK and sell it here for 25 grand don't you think Ford would have done that by now? Think!!!! :slap: If it was that easy to bring the price down Ford would import them, turn right around and ship them back to the UK and sell them for 15 or 16 thousand pounds and still make killer profit. No matter how you look at it, if FNA decided they wanted to start selling this car here in the US, even after working out a discount with FOE its still an easy 18 to 20 thousand pound car and that is still well over 30 thousand dollars US. Then FNA has to put a profit margin on there just to cover the cost to import it. Long story short, YOU AREN'T GETTING ONE FOR 25 GRAND!! Get that through your thick skulls, do some math and quit arguing about the damn thing becase it's not going to get imported here. Just to show another comparo why you cannot compare UK auto pricing to the USA. Honda CR-V in the UK starts at GBP18,827 or in USD$37,432 whereas on Honda USA website the CR-V starts at USD$20,600 Note- the all new Honda CR-V, is built in Swindon , UK plant Try comparing MSRP between Canada and the USA, you will notice a big difference in MSRPs. The new Volvo C30 is a good example, in Canada the C30 T5 starts at CAD$32,000, or in USD$30,115.00, but Volvo USA lead in price for the C30 T5 is USD$22,000. BTW if you notice on the Ford UK site on this page http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/all_cars/-/-/-/-/-/- which lists all vehicles you can read the meassage below each vehicle, EG: Focus Bodystyle 3,4,5 door & Estate Prices from *£11,522 (OTR, inc VAT) OTR = ON THE ROAD, inc= includes VAT, VAT= value added tax, which currently is 17.5% in the UK Even once on the Ford UK configurator page it states "Prices from displayed are on the road and include VAT (Commercial vehicles including Ranger exclude VAT) " How about the Mazdaspeed 6 for a UK to USA price comparo In the UK the MS6 MSRP GBP24,100 converted to USD$47,916, price is OTR= ON THE ROAD, VAT included. in the USA the MS6 MSRP USD$28,590.00 GBP= United Kingdom Pounds CAD= Canadian dollars USD I am sure you can figure that out Edited June 19, 2007 by MKII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_the_limey Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) No it is including sales tax, here it is called Value Added Tax (VAT) and the reason it's rarely mentioned is that it's applied nationally at the rate of 17.5% with very few exceptions. Also nobody pays full price for a Ford over here! Although I do wish there was more transparency in UK pricing because it's a lot of work to find out how much your being ripped off! I agree that importing the C1 from Europe is a no go with current exchange rates and also the fact that FoE is at capacity. C170 is superb platform, I have a 2004 1.8 diesel, and it has been faultless. But the C1 is a far superior car in terms of comfort and practicality. I've heard rumours that the C1 platform is an easier car to assemble than the C170, especially on the electrical/electronic side of things, apparently Volvo had a big hand in that one. Perhaps C170 in NA had to amortise tooling costs for longer it wouldn't surprise me, who knows? BTW, back on topic, Clarkson has long been accused of Ford bias in the UK ever since he was "loaned" an Escort Cosworth in the early 90's, although this is usually by Deutshe-phile tossers! Yes he did unfairly slag off the F150 because it's a unpretentious workhorse, also not least because he tested a RHD conversion of the F150 Lightning and these conversions are notoriously crap. A large part would be playing to the audience and to his pinko-liberal paymasters at the BBC! Edited June 19, 2007 by jon_the_limey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Perhaps C170 in NA had to amortise tooling costs for longer it wouldn't surprise me, who knows? It's more like this: The decision made by Ford NA to pull out of the 2nd gen. Focus was made in late 2001/early 2002. Why? http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems...rintVersion=YES The C170 Focus launch in the U.S was an unmitigated disaster. As of this date, that car has been recalled 14 times. Padilla and others at Ford NA wanted no part of any global Focus until the problems with the current Focus were worked out. The response may have been a bit extreme, but you have to appreciate just how awful the Focus and Escape launches were in the U.S., when coupled with the Explorer tire issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Quite right, it is and since you didn't bother to say what price isn't "bullshit" that tells me you really didn't know. Did any of you really think I wouldn't know the answer to the question, even before I asked it? You've not been paying attention. I speced out a Focus ST on the UK Ford website, pretty well equipped, nothing short of what Jeremy Clarkson was driving in that video. So I know for a fact that $30,000 US dollars is bullshit for that car. In fact the price I came up with after conversion is $47,389. US. You can check for yourself if you like smart ass. The car http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/foc_c307/-/foc_c3...fig/-/-/-/2006# I built one with Recaro Leather Seats, the Key Free System, Advanced Blue Tooth Hands Free, Touch Screen DVD Navigation System, Park Assist -rear parking sensors, Sun Roof and sport apperance pack. The conversion http://coinmill.com/GBP_USD.html In point of fact the Focus ST even in its most stripped down no frills version is 18,000. pounds In US dollars that is. $35,657. So to be fair gamble, wescont erred on the side of underpricing it. If any of you really believe Americans are going to pay 35 to 47 grand for a Focus here in the US, you're smoking crack, get real. This debate is over. You know what's really funny, a stripped down totally entry level Focus in the UK is priced at 12,945. pounds. In U.S. dollars that is $25,644. Anyone here think Americans will seriously pay that for an entry level Focus? Do you seriously think that the price would go by the currency conversion like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolita Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 (edited) Just to show another comparo why you cannot compare UK auto pricing to the USA.Honda CR-V in the UK starts at GBP18,827 or in USD$37,432 whereas on Honda USA website the CR-V starts at USD$20,600 Note- the all new Honda CR-V, is built in Swindon , UK plant Try comparing MSRP between Canada and the USA, you will notice big a big difference in MSRPs. The new Volvo C30 is a good example, in Canada the C30 T5 starts at CAD$32,000, or in USD$30,115.00, but Volvo USA lead in price for the C30 T5 is USD$22,000. BTW if you notice on the Ford UK site on this page http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/all_cars/-/-/-/-/-/- which lists all vehicles you can read the meassage below each vehicle, EG: Focus Bodystyle 3,4,5 door & Estate Prices from *£11,522 (OTR, inc VAT) OTR = ON THE ROAD, inc= includes VAT, VAT= value added tax, which currently is 17.5% in the UK Even once on the Ford UK configurator page it states "Prices from displayed are on the road and include VAT (Commercial vehicles including Ranger exclude VAT) " How about the Mazdaspeed 6 for a UK to USA price comparo In the UK the MS6 MSRP GBP24,100 converted to USD$47,916, price is OTR= ON THE ROAD, VAT included. in the USA the MS6 MSRP USD$28,590.00 GBP= United Kingdom Pounds CAD= Canadian dollars USD I am sure you can figure that out Don't look at the UK for the ST price - just look at the Mexican Ford site. ST retails @ 275,000 pesos todays exchange rate: 10.7353 to 1 so thats +/- 25,600 US Dollars.. Still pricey? I don't know. Even though it doesn't compare directly seems pretty close to a Subaru WRX... Now, touching on the ever existing C1 Focus issue - does any one know if the C1 Focus is selling in Mexico? I heard that its not doing so well... The sedan (only model shown other than the ST Hatch) starts at 15,700... Edited June 19, 2007 by bolita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Just to show another comparo why you cannot compare UK auto pricing to the USA.Honda CR-V in the UK starts at GBP18,827 or in USD$37,432 whereas on Honda USA website the CR-V starts at USD$20,600 Note- the all new Honda CR-V, is built in Swindon , UK plant Try comparing MSRP between Canada and the USA, you will notice big a big difference in MSRPs. The new Volvo C30 is a good example, in Canada the C30 T5 starts at CAD$32,000, or in USD$30,115.00, but Volvo USA lead in price for the C30 T5 is USD$22,000. BTW if you notice on the Ford UK site on this page http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/all_cars/-/-/-/-/-/- which lists all vehicles you can read the meassage below each vehicle, EG: Focus Bodystyle 3,4,5 door & Estate Prices from *£11,522 (OTR, inc VAT) OTR = ON THE ROAD, inc= includes VAT, VAT= value added tax, which currently is 17.5% in the UK Even once on the Ford UK configurator page it states "Prices from displayed are on the road and include VAT (Commercial vehicles including Ranger exclude VAT) " How about the Mazdaspeed 6 for a UK to USA price comparo In the UK the MS6 MSRP GBP24,100 converted to USD$47,916, price is OTR= ON THE ROAD, VAT included. in the USA the MS6 MSRP USD$28,590.00 GBP= United Kingdom Pounds CAD= Canadian dollars USD I am sure you can figure that out None of which matters. Look, if a UK Focus ST costs 24 thousand pounds sterling then FOE has to get at least enough in Dollars US to warrant importing a British Focus to the US. They can't just go and chop the price on the Focus from 23 thousand pounds down to 12 thousand pounds just so the American consumer can get the car at the price they like. It doesn't work that way. If it did just imagine the private sellers that would be all to happy to buy every Focus ST they could get their hands on before it rolled off the boat. Think!!! Oh sure, you can buy a British imported Focus ST that retails for about 40 to 45 grand in Britain for 25 grand here just because they put it on a boat and shipped it across the pond. Then said private buyers will sell them right back to buyers in England with enough markup to cover the cost to ship it back plus some profit and still come in under the British market price. Yeah right, Ford would let that happen. Not to mention that in order to get the price where you guys want it FOE has to discount their car something like 40 to 60% and that's just not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Communication Breakdown at its finest. Yes Blackhorse you are absolutely 100% correct, if a USA consumer went to the UK and purchased a Focus ST. The pricing comparisons being made are "based on if FoA was selling the ST in the USA market as a USA spec'd ST. Hence the comparisons on the Honda CR-V and Mazdaspeed 6 vehicles. Just to show that in the UK, automotive MSRP are generally muh higher, whether its a Honda, Mazda, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_the_limey Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 It's more like this: The decision made by Ford NA to pull out of the 2nd gen. Focus was made in late 2001/early 2002. Why? http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems...rintVersion=YES The C170 Focus launch in the U.S was an unmitigated disaster. As of this date, that car has been recalled 14 times. Padilla and others at Ford NA wanted no part of any global Focus until the problems with the current Focus were worked out. The response may have been a bit extreme, but you have to appreciate just how awful the Focus and Escape launches were in the U.S., when coupled with the Explorer tire issues. What a balls-up! Seems strange though because the Focus in Europe has been instrumental in improving Ford's quality perception. In 2002 it won the German TUV award for most reliable 1-3 year old car. Supplier quality issues? Ah well, it appears with with the D3's and Fusion trio that they've got these launches sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 What a balls-up! Seems strange though because the Focus in Europe has been instrumental in improving Ford's quality perception. In 2002 it won the German TUV award for most reliable 1-3 year old car. Supplier quality issues? Ah well, it appears with with the D3's and Fusion trio that they've got these launches sorted. There were red flags all over as the Focus went into production--it had a lot of unique equipment in it--but Ford NA management were bent on getting it out the door on the scheduled Job 1 date. The results speak for themselves. A LOT of corners were cut. A LOT of defects were ignored in the hopes that nothing bad would happen. Suffice to say that Ford has learned its lesson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 None of which matters. Look, if a UK Focus ST costs 24 thousand pounds sterling then FOE has to get at least enough in Dollars US to warrant importing a British Focus to the US. Well, BlackHorse, you are thoroughly off on the price comparison thing. Take the non-VAT German prices instead of the U.K. prices and you're better off. Or the Mexican prices. That said, you do have a point about importing the Focus. If we aren't going to build the C1 Focus here, we have to import it. If we have to import it, we dang-well ought to make more (or at least as much) per unit than we would selling it elsewhere. With the C1 Focus, that's just not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 Well, BlackHorse, you are thoroughly off on the price comparison thing. Take the non-VAT German prices instead of the U.K. prices and you're better off. Or the Mexican prices. That said, you do have a point about importing the Focus. If we aren't going to build the C1 Focus here, we have to import it. If we have to import it, we dang-well ought to make more (or at least as much) per unit than we would selling it elsewhere. With the C1 Focus, that's just not going to happen. Alright I did just that. Guess what. Ford Focus ST – der Leistungssportler Das Leben ist zu schnell, um es langsam angehen zu lassen. Deshalb bietet Ihnen der Ford Focus ST Kraft hoch fünf. Sein 2,5-l-Duratec ST-Fünfzylinder-Motor entfacht dank Turboaufladung eine Leistung von 166 kW (225 PS) bei 6.000 U/min. Darüber hinaus überzeugt sein bärenstarkes Drehmoment von satten 320 Nm, das schon bei 1600 U/min erzielt wird! Überzeugen Sie sich vom einzigartigen Design und von der Sportlichkeit des Ford Focus ST. Ab 25.400,– Euro*. For those that don't speak German, that 25,400 price tag is in Euros. This is the base price of a Focus ST in Germany, which is (I'm assuming) what you were asking for. This is before options and in US dollars that is, $34,097. Just about the same as a British Focus. http://www.ford.de/ns7/focus/-/-/-/-/-/1899 http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi Unless there is some other price tag I am not aware of. Now I think someone advised the VAT was 17%? Even at that rate that puts the base price of a Focus ST at just over $28,000 US. By the time you add some option, you're still well into the 30 plus grand range and could easily still hit $40,000. So, as has been pointed out, we aren't making the damn C1 here so the only way to get it, is to import it, and at that point, you just aren't getting one for 25 grand. Like I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 mexican pricing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 19, 2007 Share Posted June 19, 2007 mexican pricing? Top of the line Focus in Mexico is the Sport TA, 214,900 pesos base, about 20 grand, and most importantly. Motor DURATEC de 2.0 litros Do you guys even research anything before you start this crap? This is a 145hp non turbo motor. The European version? 2.5 Duratec ST 5 cylinders in line; DOHC; 20 valves; alloy cylinder head; Variable Valve Timing (VVT); dual mass flywheel; turbo charged; electronic multipoint fuel injection 225 hp motor with 320 foot pounds torque. Which of course begs the question, what are the differences between the Mexican built C1 Focus and the European model? Obviously here is one big ass glaring one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Top of the line Focus in Mexico is the Sport TA, 214,900 pesos base, about 20 grand, and most importantly.Do you guys even research anything before you start this crap? This is a 145hp non turbo motor. The European version? 2.5 Duratec ST 5 cylinders in line; DOHC; 20 valves; alloy cylinder head; Variable Valve Timing (VVT); dual mass flywheel; turbo charged; electronic multipoint fuel injection 225 hp motor with 320 foot pounds torque. Which of course begs the question, what are the differences between the Mexican built C1 Focus and the European model? Obviously here is one big ass glaring one. Of course the base Mexician Focus is the same as the standard Saloon in the UK. On top of that, the D20 is tuned for more juice then the NA (Sorry; US/CAD) version like the Mazda 3 GS/GX. As for the ST: Oh yeah thats a Apples/Oranges comparision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Of course the base Mexician Focus is the same as the standard Saloon in the UK. On top of that, the D20 is tuned for more juice then the NA (Sorry; US/CAD) version like the Mazda 3 GS/GX. As for the ST: Oh yeah thats a Apples/Oranges comparision. Right, only this whole damn thread has been based on bringing the ST here to the states and now that you guys have been proven wrong at every turn all of a sudden it's apples and oranges. Whatever. As for this notion that Mexico has some "juiced" up Focus that is just worlds better than ours for less money one need only apply some common sense. If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. NAFTA would long ago have taken care of this little oversight. They can make and import the Fusion from Mexico but not the Focus that is supposed to be so much better than ours? Yeah right. Whatever, argument rejected, try again. Better yet, spend some time researching what the hell you're talking about before you post something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 That's a bit harsh BlackHorse. You need to go have an adult beverage or two.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 That's a bit harsh BlackHorse. You need to go have an adult beverage or two.... Doggonit!! Alright :beerchug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Along with Ford's Swedish unit, Volvo Car Corp., Jaguar and Land Rover belong to Ford's Premier Automotive Group, or PAG, whose results have been sunk in recent years by warranty costs, unfavorable exchange rates and high raw-materials costs. Ford has acknowledged that Jaguar has been unprofitable for most of the nearly 20 years it has owned the unit. Oh shucks one2gamble, I guess those exchange rates do play a big factor after all. LMAO http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?se...article_id=5452 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plev72 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Sorry if I missed a Volvo S40 comment in here - but if someone is that desperate to have a C1 platform with a 5 cyl in line turbo for ~$36,000 a fully loaded all-wheel-drive Volvo S40 T-5 6-speed will get you there... (and with a chip I'd think you'd be good for 250hp easy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 Sorry if I missed a Volvo S40 comment in here - but if someone is that desperate to have a C1 platform with a 5 cyl in line turbo for ~$36,000 a fully loaded all-wheel-drive Volvo S40 T-5 6-speed will get you there... (and with a chip I'd think you'd be good for 250hp easy). LOL, You couldn't have made my point more clearly plev72. No the issue here was we had some guys that wanted Ford to import the C1 Focus ST with all its glory, performance and bells and whistles and sell it for 25 thousand dollars on the American market. They can't seem to understand why that's just not going to happen. But $36,000? Now that sure does seem like the price range I was trying to tell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plev72 Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 I think I included the GPS at that price ;-) (hmm back to my dilemma between the S40 T5 AWD and the G35 Sedan RWD). Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHorse Posted June 20, 2007 Share Posted June 20, 2007 You know speaking of that I went on the Volvo website last night because they are now advertising the prices of the upcoming C30, which they advertise starting at 22K. Yeah, that's great, but take a look at that options list. My guess is most people won't see one for less than 27 or 28 unless they order it specific. The bottle holder is an option? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted June 23, 2007 Share Posted June 23, 2007 Right, only this whole damn thread has been based on bringing the ST here to the states and now that you guys have been proven wrong at every turn all of a sudden it's apples and oranges. Whatever. As for this notion that Mexico has some "juiced" up Focus that is just worlds better than ours for less money one need only apply some common sense. If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is. NAFTA would long ago have taken care of this little oversight. They can make and import the Fusion from Mexico but not the Focus that is supposed to be so much better than ours? Yeah right. Whatever, argument rejected, try again. Better yet, spend some time researching what the hell you're talking about before you post something. As you say BlackHorse; the thread is based on whether we should import the Euro Focus ST here, be prepared to pay. I believe there's a preception that this Focus is the same as the ones we have here with all the issues that came with it as it was relaesed. These issues have been disscussed at length. Either way, maybe someone would pay the price, maybe not. C1 Focus D20 - 145hp Mazda 3 D20 - 148 hp C170 Focus D20 -136 hp All I am saying there's a little more 'juice' there then here. Why NAFTA is not involved? I have no idea and couldn't even venture a guess. But as you say, not the issue here. Enjoy your beverage. Hugh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 (edited) LOL, You couldn't have made my point more clearly plev72. No the issue here was we had some guys that wanted Ford to import the C1 Focus ST with all its glory, performance and bells and whistles and sell it for 25 thousand dollars on the American market. They can't seem to understand why that's just not going to happen. But $36,000? Now that sure does seem like the price range I was trying to tell them. You troll, if Volvo can sell the C30 starting at 22k, don't you think FORD could sell their version even cheaper?? And that is the ST with all the bells and whistles including a 225 horse turbo 5, the base models would come in much much cheaper, the only thing that's been proven here is that you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about and that you're a total ass. Just STFU already, you're making this website a miserable place to be, Jeremy clarkson was right about your type.. Edited June 24, 2007 by Blueblood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Just as the C170 Focus gets a makeover, so does the c1 later this year. I know this is an artists impression but unless other products in your line up look similar, I doubt changing before C2 will be effective: LINK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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