June 2007 Large Car Sales

[SysEng]

Panther Mafia Thread Hijack.

 

PMTH.

 

As a founding member of the PantherMafia, I resemble that remark!

 

But, the real issue, is not what Ford does or does not do with the

"panthers"

 

... its that they do exactly the same with every other product

line. THATS a problem.

[Hemiman]

Make no mistake, now. I am an advocate for the Interceptor and MKR. I think Ford needs to move into this direction, because if Ford wants to remain competitive in the niche RWD market, while fielding a police fleet RWD sedan, they have to do this car...or something along those lines.

 

Where I was taking issue was the value (not monetary) of the Panther and its usefulness today. These cars, equipped right, can perform as good if not better than its perceived competition. They are solid, sturdy, quiet, comfort well-equipped, etc. and can probably outlast anything else in its class. Exterior-wise, these cars are not out of style. They never really were at the cutting edge of it. They follow a simplistic template for a basic modern automobile. Crown Vics are Crown Vics. They aren't a Lexus IS or an Infiniti GS. However, they aren't offensively outdated because they were conservatively styled to begin with. When viewing the car as automobiles once were, they get the job done just fine and not at all in an ugly way. Just plain. Its the service they perform that matters here and few cars can deliver what the Panthers do.

 

I like the Panther styling. I especially like the old-school Ford engine and drivetrain. Its about as close to a four door Mustang GT as you can get when you find an HPP model. That said, I like the 300, Charger and Magnum styling as well. I am firm in my belief that its time to retire the Crown Vic name and build two Ford versions of the Interceptor. The chromed civilian version should be called the "Galaxie", the sport model the "Galaxie 500" and build a bare police version and call it the LTD Interceptor or something like that. Then build the Lincoln.

 

Most people judge the Crown Vic, Grand Marquis and Town Car by the way they think they drive without truly experiencing a new one for themselves. However, public sentiment will never change for these cars and Ford (and Panther fans) must look ahead...and that future is a unibody RWD V8 Ford/Lincoln sedan. If Ford is foolish enough to kill the Panther without a replacement, then I will give Chrysler my money for a 300, Charger or Magnum next time.

 

Nice post.

 

But I have to ask, does the BOF sedan ever have to go away? I'm back in the market for a family car. And after alot of thought, research and test drives, I keep coming back the the Panther.

 

This BOF is old and must go away argument, reminds me of the Airforce's attitude on the A-10 prior to the gulf war. "Not supersonic, not stressed skin, ugly......lets give it to the Army" Then the war started and it had the highest percent kill rate for ground targets in the war. When Iraqi officer's were asked what weapon they feared most: "THE A-10!" was the answer. I feel the same about BOF cars, just plain able to do SOME jobs that more modern types can't.

 

Now, the typical Panther buyer is looking for one, or a combination of, three things:

 

1, A heavy-duty car.

 

2, A large, safe car.

 

3, A car with a nostalgic ride, feel and performance.

 

My reasons for looking at a panther are 2, 1 & 3.

 

I want to pull a trailer, fit my whole family, and I like V-8 RWD.

 

Got to thinking during my research why doesn't ford multiply its investment in the platform by offering a more diverse line up of Panthers. I know it's been beaten to death here, so I'll be brief.

 

Panther 4dr sedan SWB

 

Panther 4dr sedan LWB

 

Both of these exist today.

 

Some new ideas:

 

Panther coupe on the SWB

 

Panther 4dr wagon on the LWB

 

Panther Ranchero reg cab on the SWB

 

Panther Ranchero 4dr on the LWB.

 

Yeah, I know you guys are busting a gut over this . But I came up with the Ranchero idea when, to my horror, I actualy looked at a Honda Ridgeline. Then I realized it didn't meet the heavy duty requirement like a real BOF would.

 

If Ford made the 4dr Ranchero, as noted above, it would be in my driveway.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Have fun blasting away, just like an A-10!

[jpd80]

The typical panther buyer is a fleet manager:

- Crown Victoria is 100% fleet

- Grand Marquis is around 40% Daily Rental Fleet.

Edited July 8, 2007 by jpd80

[suv_guy_19]

As a founding member of the PantherMafia, I resemble that remark!

 

But, the real issue, is not what Ford does or does not do with the

"panthers"

 

... its that they do exactly the same with every other product

line. THATS a problem.

 

 

 

ummm...no they don't....and they certainly don't do it anymore....

[Hemiman]

The typical panther buyer is a fleet manager:

- Crown Victoria is 100% fleet

- Grand Marquis is around 40% Daily Rental Fleet.

 

 

Refer to item 1, in my post.

[matthewq4b]

The typical panther buyer is a fleet manager:

- Crown Victoria is 100% fleet

- Grand Marquis is around 40% Daily Rental Fleet.

 

 

And still generate more profit per unit than any other Ford or Mercury car.

So there is no issue what so ever with fleet sales of these cars.

 

 

Matthew

[jpd80]

And still generate more profit per unit than any other Ford or Mercury car.

So there is no issue what so ever with fleet sales of these cars.

Matthew

 

Matthew,

I get annoyed when other people don't reveal who the typical panther buyer is.

Retail sales make up only 25% of all panther sales so, Fleet managers have a bigger say.

I have no argument with profitability or market placement, just people who misrepresent the facts.

 

If the panther supporters went and bought new ones, that retail number would move up.

People wanting the panther to stay the same but won't buy it because it's old.

Go figure.

Edited July 8, 2007 by jpd80

[Traveler]

For the record, I can say that I bought brand new...with discounts of course, because I knew that the depreciation was going to be murder. Still, I've said it before, the Panthers are cars that don't fit the mold of the typical buyer anymore and my bet is that Ford appreciates that. Also, again for the record, I'm in my mid-30s.

 

The Panther is a car that you're going to keep for 5-7 years in all likelihood. The difference between a A-10 and a Crown Vic is that the A-10 was forced to prove itself to its primary customer and impressed the Air Force with its simplistic ability to be lethal. The Crown Vic, likewise, has proven itself to many police departments over the country at how well it performs. However, the American public is fickle. They want to drive a Camry, Accord or Passat because they have to drive to the PTA meetings, church, social functions and it would never do to show up in a Grand Marquis that has been stereotyped as an old person car.

 

When I bought new in '05, the Five-Hundred was a nice car, but the Crown Vic just did everything better IMO, especially in acceleration. The HPP made the difference for me. Today, the Five-Hundred is renamed and is going on as "Taurus". Its a nice car, for sure. However, very little has changed except for the cosmetics and the engine.

 

I hear it said so much that nobody wants a police car or taxi car for a personal vehicle. WHY NOT? You're not buying a stripped Panther. All the great attributes of the police interceptor is found in each and every Panther and then you get to add the options you want. In the end, you get a nice personal luxury sedan (if loaded up) that certainly can but likely won't be given the same abuse that the police give theirs and the cars will likely last for years and thousands of miles without problems. Most, however, want the freshest face and they'll trade every 3 years to get it.

 

So, in summary, I'm all in favor of keeping the BOF, but realistically I don't believe the Panthers can be saved by the general public. I rather see Ford build a high-quality unit body RWD sedan rather than ride the Panthers into the ground and have nothing in the end but the Taurus representing the Blue Oval.

Edited July 8, 2007 by Traveler

[jpd80]

So, in summary, I'm all in favor of keeping the BOF, but realistically I don't believe the Panthers can be saved by the general public. I rather see Ford build a high-quality unit body RWD sedan rather than ride the Panthers into the ground and have nothing in the end but the Taurus representing the Blue Oval.

 

The next Falcon is all Aussie so it's a dress rehearsal, the car after it will be a joint effort.

I can tell you something has been begun with FoA and Mustang, it's still/was at the very start in March but a lot

more vehicles are now RHD/LHD preserved, meaning the hard points are set but you don't have to tear up half

of the car to change the steering wheel over.

Although its style doesn't suit American showrooms, the next Falcon is perfect fit alongside new Mondeo, C1 Focus and Fiesta.

I gather the guy who penned this CGI had very good Intel and is thinking about an Americanised version.

 

Edited July 8, 2007 by jpd80

[Noah Harbinger]

Today, the Five-Hundred is renamed and is going on as "Taurus". Its a nice car, for sure. However, very little has changed except for the cosmetics and the engine.

 

... and the transmission, and less noise, and better handling, and instrument panel, and better interior materials & colors, and more safety features ...

[Edstock]

"However, very little has changed except for the cosmetics and the engine."

 

Plus the entire front sub-frame.

Edited July 8, 2007 by Edstock

[jpd80]

Over 500 changes wasn't it?

I'd say it qualifies as a new car that resembles the Fivehundred.

[Noah Harbinger]

Over 500 changes wasn't it?

I'd say it qualifies as a new car that resembles the Fivehundred.

 

Have they published an actual list of what the 500 (also heard 600) changes are? Would be interesting to see how significant some of them are.

[taxman100]

Just to be devil's advocate, if Ford did such a great job on the Five Hundred, why did it need over 500 changes to make it more marketable? What happened to the technological wonderous CVT transmission?

 

It takes Ford about 3-4 model years to get things right on their products. I realize I'm not in the mainstream for automobiles anymore, but none of my "mainstream" peers would never even consider buying a Ford anyways - they have all moved over to Japanese makes, primarily Honda, and some Toyota's.

 

Sorry, but others can be the guinea pig on that platform - the days of Ford designing quality into their products from the beginning ended long ago because Ford cannot compete with their current cost structure. Actually, the days of Ford even designing their products in North America has ended as well. We shall see what happens to Chrysler as a model for U. S. automobiles, but it will probably be engineering and basic design, as well as manufactering is done outside the United States, and domestic will be pretty much finishing design and marketing.

 

Once the Panther is gone in 2010, the only real Fords will be the F-150 and maybe the Mustang. Everything else will be as much an import as the before-mentioned Honda's.

 

Ford does not want you to buy a Panther due to office politics - that is why they let the product languish. They would have been further ahead if they kept the Panther updated rather than blow billions on the Five Hundred/Taurus II.

[suv_guy_19]

Just to be devil's advocate, if Ford did such a great job on the Five Hundred, why did it need over 500 changes to make it more marketable? What happened to the technological wonderous CVT transmission?

 

It takes Ford about 3-4 model years to get things right on their products. I realize I'm not in the mainstream for automobiles anymore, but none of my "mainstream" peers would never even consider buying a Ford anyways - they have all moved over to Japanese makes, primarily Honda, and some Toyota's.

 

Sorry, but others can be the guinea pig on that platform - the days of Ford designing quality into their products from the beginning ended long ago because Ford cannot compete with their current cost structure. Actually, the days of Ford even designing their products in North America has ended as well. We shall see what happens to Chrysler as a model for U. S. automobiles, but it will probably be engineering and basic design, as well as manufactering is done outside the United States, and domestic will be pretty much finishing design and marketing.

 

Once the Panther is gone in 2010, the only real Fords will be the F-150 and maybe the Mustang. Everything else will be as much an import as the before-mentioned Honda's.

 

Ford does not want you to buy a Panther due to office politics - that is why they let the product languish. They would have been further ahead if they kept the Panther updated rather than blow billions on the Five Hundred/Taurus II.

 

Who said anything about the 500 not being a quality vehicle......Ford is a global company.....why not use peices fom all over to make things better....it doesn't make the cars imports.

[waymondospiff]

Sorry, but others can be the guinea pig on that platform - the days of Ford designing quality into their products from the beginning ended long ago because Ford cannot compete with their current cost structure.

 

Once the Panther is gone in 2010, the only real Fords will be the F-150 and maybe the Mustang. Everything else will be as much an import as the before-mentioned Honda's.

 

They would have been further ahead if they kept the Panther updated rather than blow billions on the Five Hundred/Taurus II.

The Panther is a dead end. While it could be improved the Panther could never be a Chrysler LX or GM Zeta competitor; Panther's basic design is outdated - fact pure and simple.

 

The D3 cars are a dynamic match for anything in their class, meeting and/or exceeding practically every aspect of the competition. Exterior & interior design are the subjective areas where the D3s lag, but that is no reflection on the fundamentals of the chassis. Also, D3 quality has been great from the get go.

 

I don't want to risk being "penalty boxed" so I'll only say that if you think the Mustang, F-150, & Panther are the only American parts of Ford, I have to laugh.

 

Scott

[Noah Harbinger]

Just to be devil's advocate, if Ford did such a great job on the Five Hundred, why did it need over 500 changes to make it more marketable? What happened to the technological wonderous CVT transmission?

 

Because people don't like technological advances that they are unfamiliar with. We're curmudgeons at heart, and lots of people perceive CVTs as struggling, when really they're being efficient and fast. So it's a poor job of marketing. Nissan's doing a much better job at that.

 

But apart from that, the 500 was a "we gotta get something out the door" product. From day 1 everyone knew certain things were lacking. It's a testament to the New Ford attitude that it only took 3 years to improve it so.

 

Sorry, but others can be the guinea pig on that platform..

 

I think Volvo's customers have already done that job :P

[Hemiman]

Panther's basic design is outdated - fact pure and simple.

 

 

Unless you want a car that can withstand punishment like a truck, yet still ride like and return the fuel economy of a car.

 

Why does everyone think you can only have the 500/Taurus at the exclusion of the Panther? Or visa-versa for that matter. The two could co-exist very nicely and be profitable for Ford.

[wescoent]

Unless you want a car that can withstand punishment like a truck, yet still ride like and return the fuel economy of a car.

 

Why does everyone think you can only have the 500/Taurus at the exclusion of the Panther? Or visa-versa for that matter. The two could co-exist very nicely and be profitable for Ford.

 

As long as Ford has the Taurus and Crown Victoria (as well as their LM counterparts), one will always suffer for the benefit of the other, due simply to fact that there aren't enough development dollars to go around. The large car segment has been contracting for decades. People's attitude today is that if they're spending big bucks on a large mainstream vehicle, they're better off getting a crossover.

 

The Crown Victoria and its ilk are cars that will run for 10 years and 150,000 miles with no complaints or problems. Their basic design is so old that Ford has ironed all the problems out of it, while at the same time keeping it relatively current. Not unlike the Camry flying off Toyota lots. With some very key differences.

 

The Camry is FWD, the Crown Victoria is RWD. Right there, you've scared off everyone living in a snow state. Whether a valid fear or not, Americans are scared to death of snow.

 

The Camry is a fairly efficient vehicle, where the Crown Victoria is not. The Crown Victoria, while a handsome design, is very poorly packaged. Consider the Taurus is a good foot shorter, yet is considerably larger on the inside. Therefore, the Crown Victoria has a lot of "dead weight" that doesn't benefit the vehicle, which saps fuel economy.

 

At the moment, the Camry also leads in exterior/interior design, for the simple fact that Ford has not kept the Crown Victoria's equipment level current, and has slowly decontented the quality of interior parts over the years. The Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis just feel cheap on the inside, which is a major turn off to me, especially when I'm dropping 30 large on a car. The Town Car feels great on the inside, for comparison. Everything is soft, solid, and well-damped.

 

Where the Crown Victoria has an advantage is durability. It's a very rugged design, and can be beaten on without fear of it breaking. That's where all the "dead weight" comes into play. If you beat on a Camry, it'll fall apart on you. This is a virtue, but its present on the wrong vehicle. People who buy a car to last 10 years aren't the kind of people to beat on a car, so this doesn't benefit the Crown Victoria in the eyes of the consumer who should be buying it.

[Hemiman]

As long as Ford has the Taurus and Crown Victoria (as well as their LM counterparts), one will always suffer for the benefit of the other, due simply to fact that there aren't enough development dollars to go around. The large car segment has been contracting for decades. People's attitude today is that if they're spending big bucks on a large mainstream vehicle, they're better off getting a crossover.

 

The Crown Victoria and its ilk are cars that will run for 10 years and 150,000 miles with no complaints or problems. Their basic design is so old that Ford has ironed all the problems out of it, while at the same time keeping it relatively current. Not unlike the Camry flying off Toyota lots. With some very key differences.

 

The Camry is FWD, the Crown Victoria is RWD. Right there, you've scared off everyone living in a snow state. Whether a valid fear or not, Americans are scared to death of snow.

 

The Camry is a fairly efficient vehicle, where the Crown Victoria is not. The Crown Victoria, while a handsome design, is very poorly packaged. Consider the Taurus is a good foot shorter, yet is considerably larger on the inside. Therefore, the Crown Victoria has a lot of "dead weight" that doesn't benefit the vehicle, which saps fuel economy.

 

At the moment, the Camry also leads in exterior/interior design, for the simple fact that Ford has not kept the Crown Victoria's equipment level current, and has slowly decontented the quality of interior parts over the years. The Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis just feel cheap on the inside, which is a major turn off to me, especially when I'm dropping 30 large on a car. The Town Car feels great on the inside, for comparison. Everything is soft, solid, and well-damped.

 

Where the Crown Victoria has an advantage is durability. It's a very rugged design, and can be beaten on without fear of it breaking. That's where all the "dead weight" comes into play. If you beat on a Camry, it'll fall apart on you. This is a virtue, but its present on the wrong vehicle. People who buy a car to last 10 years aren't the kind of people to beat on a car, so this doesn't benefit the Crown Victoria in the eyes of the consumer who should be buying it.

 

 

Nice post,

 

But let's look at Ford Truck for comparison. Ford currently has the Ranger, F-150, Super Duty (F-250 - F-450) and I'll include the Sport Trac.

 

I'll class the Panther in the Super Duty category. The F-350's straight front axle isn't for everyone, and it doesn't sell like the F-150. But Ford responds to customers needs because they see profit there. Toyota isn't even in the market here. Just like the Camery isn't in the Panther's market. But that doesn't mean there isn't a market for (or profit in) a "Super Duty" car.

 

The Panther will never sell 50K/mo like the Camery, that the Taurus' job. But at can easily out sell Toyota's offering of a HD BOF car. Just like the F-350 can out sell the Toyota 1 ton offering, which is N/A in both cases.

 

I just dont see why we can offer 4 distinct pickups, (more if you break up the Super Duty's by payload) and 6 different SUV's both BOF and Unit construction. While only offering 4 cars in the Ford family.

 

Once again, I'm saying that the Panther can co-exist with the Taurus, just like the F-350 can co-exist with the F-150.

 

Maybe that's the answer: Managment of the Panther platform should be given to Ford Truck.

[wescoent]

Nice post,

 

But let's look at Ford Truck for comparison. Ford currently has the Ranger, F-150, Super Duty (F-250 - F-450) and I'll include the Sport Trac.

 

I'll class the Panther in the Super Duty category. The F-350's straight front axle isn't for everyone, and it doesn't sell like the F-150. But Ford responds to customers needs because they see profit there. Toyota isn't even in the market here. Just like the Camery isn't in the Panther's market. But that doesn't mean there isn't a market for (or profit in) a "Super Duty" car.

 

The Panther will never sell 50K/mo like the Camery, that the Taurus' job. But at can easily out sell Toyota's offering of a HD BOF car. Just like the F-350 can out sell the Toyota 1 ton offering, which is N/A in both cases.

 

I just dont see why we can offer 4 distinct pickups, (more if you break up the Super Duty's by payload) and 6 different SUV's both BOF and Unit construction. While only offering 4 cars in the Ford family.

 

Once again, I'm saying that the Panther can co-exist with the Taurus, just like the F-350 can co-exist with the F-150.

 

Maybe that's the answer: Managment of the Panther platform should be given to Ford Truck.

 

Well, the question is, on the retail side of things, is there a truly distinct market for the Panthers that DOESN'T overlap with the D3 cars? I believe there is, albeit a small one. Obviously, fleets wouldn't buy a Taurus if there were no Crown Victoria.

 

They can co-exist, but they must be marketed to different groups. The Taurus is the best large car on the market today for retail customers, period. The Crown Victoria is the best taxi/limo/police car on the market today. They can co-exist, just not in the same market. Ford needs to figure out how much to invest in each to optimize profits.

[Traveler]

The Camry is FWD, the Crown Victoria is RWD. Right there, you've scared off everyone living in a snow state. Whether a valid fear or not, Americans are scared to death of snow.

 

Yet, however, many of the European luxocruisers are RWD. The notion that FWD is safer is what leads many FWD owners to overestimate their traction in such conditions. With modern technology like traction control, brake assist and stability control, RWD can be just as safe...if not safer. While the Vic only is offered with the traction control and brake assist, its much more stable than most people realize. Heck, most police and law enforcement can manage these cars without chains during snow and better than many can with FWD.

 

The Camry is a fairly efficient vehicle, where the Crown Victoria is not. The Crown Victoria, while a handsome design, is very poorly packaged. Consider the Taurus is a good foot shorter, yet is considerably larger on the inside. Therefore, the Crown Victoria has a lot of "dead weight" that doesn't benefit the vehicle, which saps fuel economy.

 

I disagree that the Vic isn't efficient. Not too many cars this size with a V8 can achieve 30 mpg on the highway. Even with a heavy mix of start and stop and highway driving, the 3.27-equipped Vic can easily get low-mid 20s. As for the packaging, it is still functional. For the size of the car, the rear leg room is adequate, but not overwhelming. Still, its about the same as the Taurus and notably wider than any car in its class, which gives it a more comfortable shoulder and hip room. That width comes in handy with three passengers in the back seat. The trunk isn't designed like the Taurus, but in some aspects it will accept larger items than the Taurus.

 

At the moment, the Camry also leads in exterior/interior design, for the simple fact that Ford has not kept the Crown Victoria's equipment level current, and has slowly decontented the quality of interior parts over the years. The Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis just feel cheap on the inside, which is a major turn off to me, especially when I'm dropping 30 large on a car. The Town Car feels great on the inside, for comparison. Everything is soft, solid, and well-damped.

 

I got a chance to sample a Camry not too long ago and the interior was cold and dead feeling. Its interior was just boring and lifeless. Avalon is better, but very pricey. Toyotas are overpriced IMO. Heck, you can get an Infiniti G37 for what a Avalon will cost!!

 

For me, the Crown Vic isn't so bad. Its dated, but not of poor quality. Granted, however that the Taurus as benefited from major investment in the interior design. I'll give Taurus that. It flat out walks over the Accord and Camry in terms of interior quality and IMO is on par with the Avalon. The interior of the Vic, however is well put together. You won't hear squeeks or rattles. Now, my interior is dark charcoal which does tend to improve the appearance of the material quality, but I could never complain with it. I thouroughly enjoy the Vic inside and out.

 

 

Where the Crown Victoria has an advantage is durability. It's a very rugged design, and can be beaten on without fear of it breaking. That's where all the "dead weight" comes into play. If you beat on a Camry, it'll fall apart on you. This is a virtue, but its present on the wrong vehicle. People who buy a car to last 10 years aren't the kind of people to beat on a car, so this doesn't benefit the Crown Victoria in the eyes of the consumer who should be buying it.

 

True. Problem is though, cars take a beating in many cases whether the owner realizes it or not. Take a unexpected drop off of a raised concrete curb or median divider and you're more likely to do some damage to most cars, but the Vic is designed to absorb a lot of punishment. I think in reality, if most people kept cars longer they'd see the advantages of a car like the Panthers. However, first owners usually are impressed with a car for the first three years or so and probably will trade before any major annoyances or mechancial problems arise. I'd bet if you bought a brand new Camry and Crown Vic and drove them both for 10 years, the differences between the two would be astounding.

[jpd80]

As oil climbs higher, the very durable and dependable Crown Victoria will be seen as a bygone relic.

Ford have already said the will only keep it around as long as fleets want it so what has changed in the past 6 months?

The coming CAFE regulations.

 

We're starting to see the shift with Taxis in New York, the dependable CNG Crown Victorias are being replaced by

Hybrids which excel at traffic crawl paces. Although Ford could build a hybrid panther, no such notion is entertained.

 

I seriously doubt that governmnet departments will want to be seen as duplicitous in so far as

legislating for much tighter fuel efficiency and then buying the largest V8 sedan Ford builds.

Once Chrysler or GM come forward with a much more fuel efficient police package, it's all over for the Crown Victoria.

 

It's ironic that the very thing that made the Crown Victoria a survivor will now be seen as it's

main undoing, The last of the giant cars will make way for a more efficient package.

Edited July 9, 2007 by jpd80

[SysEng]

ummm...no they don't....and they certainly don't do it anymore....

 

Really? Which ones do you think they actually do something different in? Maybe the Edge "bastard" of a Chrysler Pacifica?

 

How'd that work out for DCX(?)... and hows it working out for Ford? Then look at the 500/Taurus. A brilliant move if you consider losing 250K unit sales ( and pouring $Billions into multiple sales duds ) to be good management.

[silvrsvt]

The biggest strength of the Panther platform is also its biggest weakness, doing any major changes to the platform itself would destroy its profitably and without major changes, it will never be a player in the retail market because of this. It will just fade out as time goes on...