Mustang Competition

[NickF1011]

The driver is never a zero factor in the comparison nick. How the hell do you even arrive at that conclusion? Cars do not drive themselves (at least not yet). They have to have a driver, you can't factor it out and say "Oh well, mechanically speaking and all things being equal and blah blah blah, the driver is a zero factor." Horseshit!! The driver is the biggest variable in any car.

 

Also, who knows, maybe this was a good driver beating a shitty driver. We don't really know so it's not right to speculate on it. Heck, maybe the Speed 6 really is just that fast. As White 99 points out it's running 17PSI. But then again the Mustang is supercharged which should put it in the 400+ horsepower range. All the video really prooves is what I already tried to tell White99 a while back. You can't make blanket statements that car X will beat car Y everytime. Car Y just kicked Car X's ass didn't it?

 

By the way White99, with respect to the wheels. It's not unsprung weight, it's rotating mass in the driveline. Yes larger wheels can cause a slight reduction in your times, but fractional at best. Given that the car is supercharged I think probably more then compensates for the additional rotating mass. Face it, the Mustang is a fast car, but it's not out there dusting everything in site, so quit with the broad stupid ass statements already.

 

Car X will beat Car Y every time when operated properly. If you can't drive a car properly, you shouldn't be racing. If you want to defend people who shouldn't be racing, go on right ahead with your bad self.

[02MustangGT]

Go watch some video's asswipe. We are so past arguing numbers. The videos say enough I think.

 

Yeah, your links to videos that I would never pay attention to because they are full of unknowns. Those really tell the story. You are so past arguing numbers because you can't admit when you are wrong. The only thing you are good for is a great laugh. I hope you stick around, I enjoy laughing at your outrageous claims.

Edited September 6, 2007 by 02MustangGT

[BlackHorse]

Car X will beat Car Y every time when operated properly. If you can't drive a car properly, you shouldn't be racing. If you want to defend people who shouldn't be racing, go on right ahead with your bad self.

 

Oh brother, hey you know Nick, these kids on the street, they aren't going to bother with the Skip Barber school before they hammer the gas from a light. And they sure as hell aren't going to get permission from you or me before they go out there and get sideways. I'm not here to defend anyone or anythig except the reality of world we live in. In that reality, most of the time when some Mustang guy pulls up next to some guy in a Speed 3, odds are it won't be at a sanctioned drag track with a light tree and beer sponsors. When that happens, all this bullshit about trap times and unsprung weight doesn't amount to a pile of cricket shit. That's reality, so sorry for you guys that you can't accept it.

[BlackHorse]

Yeah, your links to videos that I would never pay attention to because they are full of unknowns. Those really tell the story. You are so past arguing numbers because you can't admit when you are wrong. The only thing you are good for is a great laugh. I hope you stick around, I enjoy laughing at your outrageous claims.

 

 

I got a better idea, go film yourself racing a Speed 3, I'd love to see that. Put up or shut up bitch.

[el norte]

Go watch some video's asswipe. We are so past arguing numbers. The videos say enough I think.

maybe you should take your own advice and get the hell out of here! you really have nothing intelligent to say, so scram horseshit!

[BlackHorse]

maybe you should take your own advice and get the hell out of here! you really have nothing intelligent to say, so scram horseshit!

 

 

I think I'll stay. El Numb Nuts

[el norte]

I think I'll stay. El Numb Nuts

no, maybe you should really go! you are a punk, and have nothing of value to post, so just quit now!

[NickF1011]

Oh brother, hey you know Nick, these kids on the street, they aren't going to bother with the Skip Barber school before they hammer the gas from a light. And they sure as hell aren't going to get permission from you or me before they go out there and get sideways. I'm not here to defend anyone or anythig except the reality of world we live in. In that reality, most of the time when some Mustang guy pulls up next to some guy in a Speed 3, odds are it won't be at a sanctioned drag track with a light tree and beer sponsors. When that happens, all this bullshit about trap times and unsprung weight doesn't amount to a pile of cricket shit. That's reality, so sorry for you guys that you can't accept it.

 

What kids do on the street isn't "racing" anyway, so to use that to judge the ability of anything (other than the lack of brains possessed by the children participating) is ludicrous. There isn't even any useful anecdotal evidence to be gathered by watching reckless speeders on public roads.

[BlackHorse]

What kids do on the street isn't "racing" anyway, so to use that to judge the ability of anything (other than the lack of brains possessed by the children participating) is ludicrous. There isn't even any useful anecdotal evidence to be gathered by watching reckless speeders on public roads.

 

 

All true Nick. But then that means we should probably stop advertising 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times in car mags shouldn't we. Why do you think they do that? Obviously, everyone wants to know how fast it is. But a stock Mustang GT is not going to be a serious contender at a drag track is it? It's not even legal at a lot of drag tracks because it doesn't have a roll cage. The vast majority of drag cars are modified for the purpose of drag racing. So really, there's no need for car mags to tell us how fast a street car is, unless you intend to street race it.

 

Remember the Ford Mustang commercial, that came out about a year ago where the father and son are in the car and the son lights up the tires. The father yells at him for a second but then smiles and says "Wanna do it again?" Or how about the current one where the cops have arrested the kid in his Mustang and the cop car is chasing the Mustang around on "city streets". What kind of behavior do you think that is promoting among the general public out there on the streets. I mean Ford is practically telling the buying public, "Buy our Mustang and street race it." I don't see you getting put out with them.

 

The reality is that the vast majority of times that a Mustang lines up with a Speed 3 or a Speed 6 it's not going to be at a drag track, it's going to be on a city street. So trying to say that a Mustang is always faster then a Speed 3 but only at a drag racing track with two well trained drivers is just not the reality most people live in. So like it or not, it is incorrect to make blanket statements about Mustangs always beating Speed 3's, even at a drag track.

[NickF1011]

All true Nick. But then that means we should probably stop advertising 0 to 60 and 1/4 mile times in car mags shouldn't we. Why do you think they do that? Obviously, everyone wants to know how fast it is. But a stock Mustang GT is not going to be a serious contender at a drag track is it? It's not even legal at a lot of drag tracks because it doesn't have a roll cage. The vast majority of drag cars are modified for the purpose of drag racing. So really, there's no need for car mags to tell us how fast a street car is, unless you intend to street race it.

 

Remember the Ford Mustang commercial, that came out about a year ago where the father and son are in the car and the son lights up the tires. The father yells at him for a second but then smiles and says "Wanna do it again?" Or how about the current one where the cops have arrested the kid in his Mustang and the cop car is chasing the Mustang around on "city streets". What kind of behavior do you think that is promoting among the general public out there on the streets. I mean Ford is practically telling the buying public, "Buy our Mustang and street race it." I don't see you getting put out with them.

 

The reality is that the vast majority of times that a Mustang lines up with a Speed 3 or a Speed 6 it's not going to be at a drag track, it's going to be on a city street. So trying to say that a Mustang is always faster then a Speed 3 but only at a drag racing track with two well trained drivers is just not the reality most people live in. So like it or not, it is incorrect to make blanket statements about Mustangs always beating Speed 3's, even at a drag track.

 

The only stock Mustangs that are going to run into trouble at a race track are the convertibles...and perhaps the GT500 for the lack of a driveshaft loop (required at 12.99 I believe). Other than that, there are no cage requirements for cars running slower than 11.49.

 

Cars are tested in magazines to show their POTENTIAL. People want to own cars with potential to go fast, not necessarily to do it themselves. Most people are smart enough NOT to street race. The fact that they KNOW their car can perform better than the douchebag next to them at a red light is enough for most people.

[BlackHorse]

Cars are tested in magazines to show their POTENTIAL. People want to own cars with potential to go fast, not necessarily to do it themselves. Most people are smart enough NOT to street race. The fact that they KNOW their car can perform better than the douchebag next to them at a red light is enough for most people.

 

Oh bullshit Nick!!!! LMAO, Hey! :slap: Get your head back in reality man. Poeple want to know how fast the car is so they know how fast they can drive it. Yeah I can just see some Mustang guy at the light thinking "I know I can smoke that little punk in that Honda Civic that's been weaving in traffic and cutting everyone off with his loud obnoxious music. Look at him looking at me with that smug look on his face. I could really teach him a lesson. But I won't because I'm better than that. That's right, I bought a Mustang GT just to have the certain peace of mind that if I really wanted to smoke that kid I could but I won't because I'm all better than that and shit."

 

LMAO Yeah whatever Nick. Meanwhile back in reality when the light changes the Mustang guy embarasses the shit out of mister honda civic and all the people behind them that he cut off in traffic get a little smile on their face at getting to witness such a spectacle. You really don't believe that garbage I know. You put it up there for the sake of jusitfying your argument. It's sooooo not the way things work in traffic. Get real man.

Edited September 6, 2007 by BlackHorse

[timmm55]

Timmm, you're going to be hard pressed to find a brand new Mustang GT for 25K given that the base price is 26 and some change. Don't try to lowball me for the sake of some argument. While it's entirely possible that some people by a completely stripped down Mustang GT it is very much the exception and not the rule. I know how people like to point out exceptions to the rule and act like they exception is the rule around here. I don't. The average price tag on a Mustang GT is between 28 and 30 grand. Thats reality unless you are one of the few who make it a point to get one cheaper. Visit a lot sometime and see what I mean.

 

They've gone up a grand or so since I bought mine. I have the automatic, optional wheels and alarm @$26.7K. But there was a $2000-$4000 mark up at a lot of dealerships, I paid sticker and thought that was good at the time. But now there are rebates and/or good finance rates.

 

Even a base equipped Mustang GT is hardly "stripped".

[BlackHorse]

They've gone up a grand or so since I bought mine. I have the automatic, optional wheels and alarm @$26.7K. But there was a $2000-$4000 mark up at a lot of dealerships, I paid sticker and thought that was good at the time. But now there are rebates and/or good finance rates.

 

Even a base equipped Mustang GT is hardly "stripped".

 

No argument there Timmm, that was a fair and true statement.

[NickF1011]

Oh bullshit Nick!!!! LMAO, Hey! :slap: Get your head back in reality man. Poeple want to know how fast the car is so they know how fast they can drive it. Yeah I can just see some Mustang guy at the light thinking "I know I can smoke that little punk in that Honda Civic that's been weaving in traffic and cutting everyone off with his loud obnoxious music. Look at him looking at me with that smug look on his face. I could really teach him a lesson. But I won't because I'm better than that. That's right, I bought a Mustang GT just to have the certain peace of mind that if I really wanted to smoke that kid I could but I won't because I'm all better than that and shit."

 

LMAO Yeah whatever Nick. Meanwhile back in reality when the light changes the Mustang guy embarasses the shit out of mister honda civic and all the people behind them that he cut off in traffic get a little smile on their face at getting to witness such a spectacle. You really don't believe that garbage I know. You put it up there for the sake of jusitfying your argument. It's sooooo not the way things work in traffic. Get real man.

 

A few idiots will race them to "put that civic in its place" yes....but the VAST majority won't. Have I done it? Sure, when I was younger and dumber. Now all I really have to do is LOOK at the other driver and LAUGH and they usually get the point. Most people will NOT race their cars on public roads under ANY circumstances, including MOST Mustang owners. And the ones who DO make the rest of us look bad.

Edited September 6, 2007 by NickF1011

[BlackHorse]

A few idiots will race them to "put that civic in its place" yes....but the VAST majority won't. Have I done it? Sure, when I was younger and dumber. Now all I really have to do is LOOK at the other driver and LAUGH and they usually get the point. Most people will NOT race their cars on public roads under ANY circumstances, including MOST Mustang owners. And the ones who DO make the rest of us look bad.

 

LMAO, This is too funny. I wish you guys could step back and look at yourselves.

 

"Oh the Mustang is all bad ass because you can get a 300 hp V8 that kicks ass for under 30K. It's like all in a league by itself and shit. It has no competion because there's nothing as fast and bad ass as the Mustang in this price range. It's way faster then a Speed 3 BlackHorse, you big dummy you. It's like totally fast. It's got the Shaker 1000 sound system and that makes it even more bad ass. Nothing can touch a Mustang. Oh and by the way the vast majority of us don't ever jump on it while were out driving around because we're better then that. We just like knowing that we could if we want to. It's all a frame of mind and shit."

 

LOL, That's what you guys sound like. You're all full of shit!!! Meanwhile back in real life lots of mustang owners are proving you wrong every second of the day.

Edited September 6, 2007 by BlackHorse

[lbytesxk]

Oh and by the way the vast majority of us don't ever jump on it while were out driving around because we're better then that. We just like knowing that we could if we want to. It's all a frame of mind and shit."

 

It's not that, sometimes I just feel I have absolutely nothing to prove to Mazda (speed or not).

[NickF1011]

LMAO, This is too funny. I wish you guys could step back and look at yourselves.

 

"Oh the Mustang is all bad ass because you can get a 300 hp V8 that kicks ass for under 30K. It's like all in a league by itself and shit. It has no competion because there's nothing as fast and bad ass as the Mustang in this price range. It's way faster then a Speed 3 BlackHorse, you big dummy you. It's like totally fast. It's got the Shaker 1000 sound system and that makes it even more bad ass. Nothing can touch a Mustang. Oh and by the way the vast majority of us don't ever jump on it while were out driving around because we're better then that. We just like knowing that we could if we want to. It's all a frame of mind and shit."

 

LOL, That's what you guys sound like. You're all full of shit!!! Meanwhile back in real life lots of mustang owners are proving you wrong every second of the day.

 

Yes. Yes I am better than acting like a juvenile and putting other drivers at risk. If you are any different, frankly, that makes you an asshole.

[02MustangGT]

BH, there are lots of owners of ANY car that are proving YOU wrong every second of the day. You should wake up and come back to reality instead of dreaming up words to describe what you read. Honestly, you have one person in this forum that actually respects you or your views, that should tell you something. You are a fucking troll that lives his life through a forum because you have nothing better to do.

[BlackHorse]

BH, there are lots of owners of ANY car that are proving YOU wrong every second of the day. You should wake up and come back to reality instead of dreaming up words to describe what you read. Honestly, you have one person in this forum that actually respects you or your views, that should tell you something. You are a fucking troll that lives his life through a forum because you have nothing better to do.

 

Oh man, I just got back from doing something better. Pork chops, over the grill, good stuff. Hey 02Mustang, if that's really the way you feel then you won't have any problem not responding to anything I say. You're all better then that right? Looking forward to that video of you "whipping" a Speed 3. Seeya.

[BlackHorse]

Yes. Yes I am better than acting like a juvenile and putting other drivers at risk. If you are any different, frankly, that makes you an asshole.

 

Good for you Nick. No really that's good. It's just too bad that our entire car culture from TV commericals to auto magazines promote the idea and notion of buying cars and driving them very aggressively on pubic streets. That's just the way it is, and plenty of people are happy to oblige the notion with their right foot. You know I was on my way back over to the house just a few minutes ago and low and behold there was a guy in about an 02 / 03 Mustang just ahead of me in traffic. It's a cool night so I've go the windows down. It's clearly modified, aftermarket tires, exhaust, who knows what all. How do you think he was driving? You guessed it buddy. He's chirpping the tires and racing the motor and dumped the clutch at a couple street lights. He's not even racing anyone, just driving like an ass to get attention I guess. I guess he's not one of the guys in your majority. lol

[2005GTP]

BH and the other idiot...I did not cross shop the 350Z or the Grand Prix. Having owned the GP, I realized it didn’t compete with the Stang. That's why I bought the Stang. The 350Z, never even entered my mind. Barely know what one is.

 

There is a difference between cross shopping and competition. As it was stated before, every car in the market for that price range would have to be cross shopped with each other. That doesn’t mean it competes with the other vehicles because each offers a unique value based on your needs (e.g. a 27K mini-van and a 27K sports car). Each costs 27K and could potentially be cross shopped but the cars offer 2 completely different sets of values.

 

Right now, there is not a vehicle that really offers the value of the Mustang. There are many cars that cost less, as much and more than a Stang but when you put that all together, nothing offers the kind of value the Stang does.

[suv_guy_19]

BH and that A plus guy SUV :shades: ...I did cross shop the Grand Prix. Having owned the GP, I realized it did compete with the Stang. I bought the Stang. The 350Z, never even entered my mind. Barely know what one is, which is really strange considering I'm a car enthusiast. I just may be lying here. :blah:

 

There is no difference between cross shopping and competition. As it was stated before, every car in the market for that price range can be cross shopped with each other. That means it competes with the other vehicles.

 

Right now, IMO there is not a vehicle that really offers the value of the Mustang. There are many cars that cost less, as much and more, and they all compete as long as they are similar.

 

 

Being the A plus guy that I am, I edited it for you. :stats: Thanks for the compliment by the way.

Edited September 7, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[goingincirclez]

Good for you Nick. No really that's good. It's just too bad that our entire car culture from TV commericals to auto magazines promote the idea and notion of buying cars and driving them very aggressively on pubic streets. That's just the way it is, and plenty of people are happy to oblige the notion with their right foot. You know I was on my way back over to the house just a few minutes ago and low and behold there was a guy in about an 02 / 03 Mustang just ahead of me in traffic. It's a cool night so I've go the windows down. It's clearly modified, aftermarket tires, exhaust, who knows what all. How do you think he was driving? You guessed it buddy. He's chirpping the tires and racing the motor and dumped the clutch at a couple street lights. He's not even racing anyone, just driving like an ass to get attention I guess. I guess he's not one of the guys in your majority. lol

 

Oh come on now Blackhorse, that's a desperate stretch even for you. Surely you've heard of the law of averages right? So you saw some dipshit in a modded Mustang. Big deal. 10 years ago it would have been just as likely to be a Camaro or Firebird. Today it could be any cheap Asian coupe as well. In fact I kind of doubt you actually saw a Mustang, but I'll grant you that one anyways because let's face it: we've all seen those idiots before. I'll even bet dollars to donuts we've all _been_ that idiot once or twice in our day, regardless of what we were driving at the time.

 

But I'll bet you don't notice EVERY Mustang on the road though. And that would be because 99% of the time, the drivers of those Mustangs are obeying the rules as they should. As for the assholes, see the law of averages: more Mustangs on the road means a greater chance of an asshat driver. Who cares if the Mustang commercials show risky driving. A shitload of commercials do. Some even show vast urban areas completely devoid of all life, save for the ballsy driver tearing up downtown. It's all fantasy. It's the reason they make Hotweel cars.

 

I agree with Nick on the point regarding owners of performance cars. I actually do get to see a fair amount of 6-figure exotic/ performance cars on the road where I live, not to mention professional hotrod jobs and affordable exotics. And I have NEVER seen one driving in a risky manner in traffic. Heck, half the time I manage to cruise on by my own merry way and give the "nice ride nod" to the driver. They don't need to be asinine. Most of the time they hardly break the speed limit! It may be hard to believe but I shit you not. Closest I saw was a Porsche tearing up backroads. Most of the asshats I see are driving more readily-available cars. Hmm, I wonder why that might be? Because a Toyota Camry can really take on a Ferrari 360?

 

Now, just tonight I saw a news clip of some dipshit parent racing her minivan to beat a freight train to a crossing. And not only did she get hit by the train, she got hit by TWO of them simultaneously (killing two of her four kids). I suppose by your logic above, all Mercury Villager drivers are asshats, based on the actions of that one. Or because C&D might have published 0-60 times back in the day. But you and I both know that most minivan drivers aren't reckless. And for the millions of Mustangs out there, the number of asshats are in the VAST minority.

 

 

As for the Mustang vs. Mazdaspeed issue: there's a simple way to decide that: take both cars to the same closed course on the same day so as to equalize conditions, and have the same driver of ample skill wring them both out. You remove the driver skill variable, so that all that remains are the STOCK cars. You define parameters to be tested and by all rights, the one with better specs would win. Whether that handling or acceleration or braking or lateral grip or what have you.

 

Hell, absent those controlled conditions, you're no longer testing just the cars, so ANYTHING is possible. Heck, I've seen the clip of Sabine Schmidtz lapping a Porsche 911 with a Ford Transit at Nurburgring. Yeah, that must be because the Ford Transit really is the superior racing machine.

[BlackHorse]

LOL, Nice one Suv Guy, saved me the trouble.

 

You cross shopped them 2005GTP, you admitted that you cross shopped them even if you didn't mean to admit it, and because you cross shopped them you made a grand prix competiton for the mustang.

 

Also I'm on board with SUV, your ass if flat out lying if you claim to be any kind of knowledgable about cars and don't know what a 350Z is. Yeah, I just called you a liar. That's what you are.

Edited September 7, 2007 by BlackHorse

[BlackHorse]

Oh come on now Blackhorse, that's a desperate stretch even for you. Surely you've heard of the law of averages right? So you saw some dipshit in a modded Mustang. Big deal. 10 years ago it would have been just as likely to be a Camaro or Firebird. Today it could be any cheap Asian coupe as well. In fact I kind of doubt you actually saw a Mustang, but I'll grant you that one anyways because let's face it: we've all seen those idiots before. I'll even bet dollars to donuts we've all _been_ that idiot once or twice in our day, regardless of what we were driving at the time.

 

But I'll bet you don't notice EVERY Mustang on the road though. And that would be because 99% of the time, the drivers of those Mustangs are obeying the rules as they should. As for the assholes, see the law of averages: more Mustangs on the road means a greater chance of an asshat driver. Who cares if the Mustang commercials show risky driving. A shitload of commercials do. Some even show vast urban areas completely devoid of all life, save for the ballsy driver tearing up downtown. It's all fantasy. It's the reason they make Hotweel cars.

 

I agree with Nick on the point regarding owners of performance cars. I actually do get to see a fair amount of 6-figure exotic/ performance cars on the road where I live, not to mention professional hotrod jobs and affordable exotics. And I have NEVER seen one driving in a risky manner in traffic. Heck, half the time I manage to cruise on by my own merry way and give the "nice ride nod" to the driver. They don't need to be asinine. Most of the time they hardly break the speed limit! It may be hard to believe but I shit you not. Closest I saw was a Porsche tearing up backroads. Most of the asshats I see are driving more readily-available cars. Hmm, I wonder why that might be? Because a Toyota Camry can really take on a Ferrari 360?

 

Now, just tonight I saw a news clip of some dipshit parent racing her minivan to beat a freight train to a crossing. And not only did she get hit by the train, she got hit by TWO of them simultaneously (killing two of her four kids). I suppose by your logic above, all Mercury Villager drivers are asshats, based on the actions of that one. Or because C&D might have published 0-60 times back in the day. But you and I both know that most minivan drivers aren't reckless. And for the millions of Mustangs out there, the number of asshats are in the VAST minority.

As for the Mustang vs. Mazdaspeed issue: there's a simple way to decide that: take both cars to the same closed course on the same day so as to equalize conditions, and have the same driver of ample skill wring them both out. You remove the driver skill variable, so that all that remains are the STOCK cars. You define parameters to be tested and by all rights, the one with better specs would win. Whether that handling or acceleration or braking or lateral grip or what have you.

 

Hell, absent those controlled conditions, you're no longer testing just the cars, so ANYTHING is possible. Heck, I've seen the clip of Sabine Schmidtz lapping a Porsche 911 with a Ford Transit at Nurburgring. Yeah, that must be because the Ford Transit really is the superior racing machine.

 

Oh christ almighty boys, I would not and did not make the case that every asshole driving a mustang on the road is driving like a maniac. Nor would I limit that dubious honor to just mustang owners. Hell I'd wager that around here you're more likely to see some kid in a Honda driving like that then a mustang.

 

But don't play stupid with me either ok. I used to run with that crowd of guys when I was a mustang owner myself and I know what they are like. They don't buy those kinds of cars to putt around and observe the speed limit at all times. Don't even try to blow that smoke up my ass becase I'm not buying ok. These are serious car guys that do things like add superchargers and various other performance parts and they do that for one reason, to drive fast, and many of them don't restrict their driving fast time to a race track. Who the hell do you think you're kidding with that bullshit anyway? They might be a little more careful about it when they do it, but you can bet a 20 dollar hooker they are gonna do it.

 

So no I'm not buying all this bullshit about how every Mustang owner, or hell any car owner period for that matter, spends all their time doing the grandma routine behind the wheel because they are oh so mature and better than that. Whatever. Why even buy a Mustang GT then? Why not just buy the V6? I mean the whole point of a Mustang GT is to buy a fast car. That's its heart and soul. So if you boys are going to putter around and play pretend that you can just give the guy in the next car the nod everytime and oh he knows better then to mess with you. Get outta here with that fairy tale bullshit already. If you're going to do that, why even buy the GT? That's like buying a new pistol and never taking it to range. It's buying a pack of bubble gum and never chewing it.

 

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. You might be pretty careful about when you hammer the gas but I damn well know better then to think you guys are all out there minding your "p's" and "q's". I never met a mustang owner or someone who was about to buy one that said they wanted one because they just wanted to drive around and observe the speed limit. Horseshit.