why Government regulation is necessary.

[suv_guy_19]

Our founding fathers were never against government itself. They were against governing from afar. What was once England ruling the American colonies is now Washington, DC ruling the rest of the United States. There is a complete disconnect between what the US government THINKS Americans need and what local politicians and governments are trying to accomplish. We don't necessarily need a smaller government overall, but we DO need a much smaller FEDERAL government, with much of its power put back in the hands of local governments that actually know what the heck is going on in their own back yards.

 

Would you rather send $100 to someone living 2000 miles away and trusting them to spend it wisely for you, or would you rather give the same $100 to your neighbor who is facing many of the same problems you are? Heck, on top of that, the neighbor could probably accomplish the same thing for $80.

 

Yes but the government is not just someone. Its a large body with checks and balances in place to make sure that the money can be tracked. I would say that your Federal Gevernment is too small. It causes them to lose touch with the general public. You have what, just over 400 representatives for 300 million people. Those people can't talk to their constituents and get a good sense of whats going on. You don't even vote for them, but rather just their party leader. They lose touch with you. We have 308 Members of Parliament for 32 million people. It keeps each member accountable to their constiuents. The problem with giving more power to local governments is that it takes away from the order. It becomes a patchwork rather than a union or federation.

[NickF1011]

WHO ratings of world health care systems From 1 to the US. Great system you have, though ours doesn't rate much better. Then again, 2 years ago we were in the spot just above you, so things have inproved greatly.

 

1 France

2 Italy

3 San Marino

4 Andorra

5 Malta

6 Singapore

7 Spain

8 Oman

9 Austria

10 Japan

11 Norway

12 Portugal

13 Monaco

14 Greece

15 Iceland

16 Luxembourg

17 Netherlands

18 United Kingdom

19 Ireland

20 Switzerland

21 Belgium

22 Colombia

23 Sweden

24 Cyprus

25 Germany

26 Saudi Arabia

27 United Arab Emirates

28 Israel

29 Morocco

30 Canada

31 Finland

32 Australia

33 Chile

34 Denmark

35 Dominica

36 Costa Rica

37 United States of America

 

The reality is, that you spend more of your GDP than most of these countries. Yous system is expensive and the cost is passed on to you. You have for profit health care. Most of these system eitehr have publily funded hospitals or a combination of for profit and public bringing in competition keeping the price down.

 

My health care coverage is pretty darn cheap, and it's quite excellent. Would I rather go to a hospital in France or one of the many local ones here like Johns Hopkins, University of Maryland Medical Center, or Union Memorial? Hmm...I think I'll take my chances here. :P

[suv_guy_19]

My health care coverage is pretty darn cheap, and it's quite excellent. Would I rather go to a hospital in France or one of the many local ones here like Johns Hopkins, University of Maryland Medical Center, or Union Memorial? Hmm...I think I'll take my chances here. :P

 

 

Built into coverage there is usually a rule that for every person that gets covered there is another person that the company will not cover. It's how they make money.

[NickF1011]

Built into coverage there is usually a rule that for every person that gets covered there is another person that the company will not cover. It's how they make money.

 

Long as I'm not that other person....

[jpd80]

Australia is interesting, we have a public health system people pay a 1.5% salary levy into.

If you earn over $50K youpay an extra 1.5% unless you're in a private fund.

If you're in a private fund, the government picks up 30% of your fees.

 

Funny how liberal governments set up one system and then the conservatives

set up another to avoid a UK style money pit.

Encouraging people into private health care even with subsidies has saved the governmnet billions.

Edited September 18, 2007 by jpd80

[suv_guy_19]

Australia is interesting, we have a public health system people pay a 1.5% salary levy into.

If you earn over $50K youpay an extra 1.5% unless you're in a private fund.

If you're in a private fund, the government picks up 30% of your fees.

 

Funny how liberal governments set up one system and then the conservatives

set up another to avoid a UK style money pit.

Encouraging people into private health care even with subsidies has saved the governmnet billions.

 

 

With our system ,almost everything is completely paid for by the government. Private health care that you pay for out of pocket is illegal, though some small MRI clinics and surgery cnetres are popping up. There is talk of going to a system like France where there is private and public health care and both are aid for by the government. because there is competition it is said to keep costs down.

[jpd80]

So Australian system could be considered 50/50 Canadian/USA.

Those that can pay do.

[NickF1011]

With our system ,almost everything is completely paid for by the government.

 

In the end, we all pay for it.

[suv_guy_19]

In the end, we all pay for it.

 

 

Of course, I just like the fact that if something happens to you you have nothing to worry about. Now as little as a couple years ago you would have to worry about the waiting lists, but that problem is being taken care of as well.

Edited September 18, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[NickF1011]

Of course, I just like the fact that if something happens to you you have nothing to worry about. Now as little as a couple years ago you would have to worry about the waiting lists, but that problem is being taken care of as well.

 

No more waiting lists? Government bussing them to the US?

[suv_guy_19]

No more waiting lists? Government bussing them to the US?

 

 

Oh there still are waiting lit's they are just significantly shorter. A massive cash injection was made. Most of what Canada has isnot paid for by taxes, but rather the money from trade surplses. Some patients are sent to the US or out of their home province to get treatment. Some provinces, like mine, have things very under control while others don't.

Edited September 18, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[Edstock]

This is the biggest lie about nationalized health care that was ever told. There are still huge bills

 

The only difference will be that, unlike insurance companies, government really doesn't care how much of your money they spend. YOU WILL STILL PAY!! You will pay by means of ungodly high taxes. The money has to come from somewhere

 

You're right, there are still huge bills, and we will still pay.

 

But, are the taxes "ungodly high"? Depends on your mind-set. As you say, the costs are the costs, you either pay Lotsaluck Healthcare Inc., or your state government, for example. Taxes go up, but now there's no Lotsaluck invoice.

 

Anyway, the savings are not in the wards and operating theaters, but in the amount of paper-shuffling. The US health system is a bureaucratic monster.

 

Another area of improvement is that the "government really doesn't care how much of your money they spend" attitude of universal health care that upsets some people, means that a doctor can prescribe a course of treatment without having an HMO weasel fight over treatment approval. The weasel-fight takes time, and incurs its own additional costs to the fiscal hoo-ha.

 

Eventually, we all need this treatment. This means you. If paying $100 a month means you offer this treatment to your neighbor who just got "contracted-out" and can't pay his Lotsaluck invoice, or some good-for-nothing homeless type who possesses neither a bank account or money to deposit in it to pay the same invoice, you might just score some brownie points with Jesus. He seemed to think that healing the sick was a good idea.

[BlackHorse]

You're right, there are still huge bills, and we will still pay.

 

But, are the taxes "ungodly high"? Depends on your mind-set. As you say, the costs are the costs, you either pay Lotsaluck Healthcare Inc., or your state government, for example. Taxes go up, but now there's no Lotsaluck invoice.

 

Anyway, the savings are not in the wards and operating theaters, but in the amount of paper-shuffling. The US health system is a bureaucratic monster.

 

Another area of improvement is that the "government really doesn't care how much of your money they spend" attitude of universal health care that upsets some people, means that a doctor can prescribe a course of treatment without having an HMO weasel fight over treatment approval. The weasel-fight takes time, and incurs its own additional costs to the fiscal hoo-ha.

 

Eventually, we all need this treatment. This means you. If paying $100 a month means you offer this treatment to your neighbor who just got "contracted-out" and can't pay his Lotsaluck invoice, or some good-for-nothing homeless type who possesses neither a bank account or money to deposit in it to pay the same invoice, you might just score some brownie points with Jesus. He seemed to think that healing the sick was a good idea.

 

Yeah, he also said God helps those who help themselves. Oh I'm pretty sure there was something about thou shalt not steal in there somewhere too. Just because your money is taken without your permission by some faceless government entity doesn't mean it's not stealing from you. I'll pay for mine, you pay for yours. I'll seeya in line at the pearly gates ok?

[Edstock]

Just because your money is taken without your permission by some faceless government entity doesn't mean it's not stealing from you. I'll pay for mine, you pay for yours. I'll seeya in line at the pearly gates ok?

 

Helping the less-fortunate is stealing? You sure know how to give Ayn Rand sticky panties.

[suv_guy_19]

You're right, there are still huge bills, and we will still pay.

 

But, are the taxes "ungodly high"? Depends on your mind-set. As you say, the costs are the costs, you either pay Lotsaluck Healthcare Inc., or your state government, for example. Taxes go up, but now there's no Lotsaluck invoice.

 

Anyway, the savings are not in the wards and operating theaters, but in the amount of paper-shuffling. The US health system is a bureaucratic monster.

 

Another area of improvement is that the "government really doesn't care how much of your money they spend" attitude of universal health care that upsets some people, means that a doctor can prescribe a course of treatment without having an HMO weasel fight over treatment approval. The weasel-fight takes time, and incurs its own additional costs to the fiscal hoo-ha.

 

Eventually, we all need this treatment. This means you. If paying $100 a month means you offer this treatment to your neighbor who just got "contracted-out" and can't pay his Lotsaluck invoice, or some good-for-nothing homeless type who possesses neither a bank account or money to deposit in it to pay the same invoice, you might just score some brownie points with Jesus. He seemed to think that healing the sick was a good idea.

 

 

Very well said.

[suv_guy_19]

My Reply to the person in the othr thread. I know that Ontario's wait times are shrinking. Maybe nt very fast, but they are, slowly. I, if you missed it, am from Manitoba. Wait times are getting vey short here thanks in part to our wonderful Premier Gary Doer. He has turned this province around. Our roads are being fixed, our health care is improving, and our economy is undergoing steady growth. Wait times in Canada are going down. On top of that if you really need something, you will ge it. For examle the mean wait time for urgent heart surgery is a few hours to immediate, cancer radiation therapy can be as little as that. Non urget diagnostic services are down to a few weeks wait, 6 for MRI, 9 for CT, Iand I beleive its almost immediate for PET. The PET scanner now has its own centrifuge allowing them to double their number of scans. A Cancer knife is being installed at the Health Sciences Centre. That hospital has brand new emergency wards for both childen and adults. The St. Boniface General Hospital has a brand New Centre for Cardiac Excellence attractng world renowned doctors. The Victoria, Grace, and many other hospitals are all being expanded and renewed. Mny citys and towns have or are geting brand new hospitals. Ther are front line Primary Health Care Centres in many communities. I could go on and on, and I know similar things are happening across this country.

[BlackHorse]

My Reply to the person in the othr thread. I know that Ontario's wait times are shrinking. Maybe nt very fast, but they are, slowly. I, if you missed it, am from Manitoba. Wait times are getting vey short here thanks in part to our wonderful Premier Gary Doer. He has turned this province around. Our roads are being fixed, our health care is improving, and our economy is undergoing steady growth. Wait times in Canada are going down. On top of that if you really need something, you will ge it. For examle the mean wait time for urgent heart surgery is a few hours to immediate, cancer radiation therapy can be as little as that. Non urget diagnostic services are down to a few weeks wait, 6 for MRI, 9 for CT, Iand I beleive its almost immediate for PET. The PET scanner now has its own centrifuge allowing them to double their number of scans. A Cancer knife is being installed at the Health Sciences Centre. That hospital has brand new emergency wards for both childen and adults. The St. Boniface General Hospital has a brand New Centre for Cardiac Excellence attractng world renowned doctors. The Victoria, Grace, and many other hospitals are all being expanded and renewed. Mny citys and towns have or are geting brand new hospitals. Ther are front line Primary Health Care Centres in many communities. I could go on and on, and I know similar things are happening across this country.

 

I guess it never registered that you guys up there in Canada had to improve your game because you were "competing" with the American medical system, where many Canadians were coming to get service because of the prolonged wait times in Canada. Yes I said, you got better because of competition, the free market way. Like it or not, it just worked to your advantage.

[jpd80]

With our system ,almost everything is completely paid for by the government. Private health care that you pay for out of pocket is illegal, though some small MRI clinics and surgery cnetres are popping up. There is talk of going to a system like France where there is private and public health care and both are aid for by the government. because there is competition it is said to keep costs down.

Anything the government completely pays for is a result of their taxes and levys on you.

Smart governments set limits on the cost of a national health scheme. Our system in Australia

used to be fully funded 35 years ago but now requires gap payments to stop medical practitioners

charging whatever they like.

Our system is far from perfect but the mix of public and private health care ensures that those that can

afford medical insurance have it instead of sponging off a system intendedfor people with little money.

In order to achieve this, private health funds cannot refuse new policy applications on medical grounds.

[suv_guy_19]

I guess it never registered that you guys up there in Canada had to improve your game because you were "competing" with the American medical system, where many Canadians were coming to get service because of the prolonged wait times in Canada. Yes I said, you got better because of competition, the free market way. Like it or not, it just worked to your advantage.

 

 

The number of Canadians that went to the US were small, and those types of things are really no longer necessary. We fixed the system because it needed fixing. The system was Fixed by Liberal and New Democratic Governments. It's been continued by our new Conservative government. I'm not arguing your system is bad, but I'm saying there are batter ways, and if you had a system such as this, there would be less burden to companies such as the automakers.

Edited September 18, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[BlackHorse]

The number of Canadians that went to the US were small, and those types of things are really no longer necessary. We fixed the system because it needed fixing. The system was Fixed by Liberal and New Democratic Governments. It's been continued by our new Conservative government. I'm not arguing your system is bad, but I'm saying there are batter ways, and if you had a system such as this, there would be less burden to companies such as the automakers.

 

 

You misunderstand me. It's not that I don't agree our medical system needs a major overhaul, it does. It's that I know my own government far too well and trusting them to do it is a gianormously bad idea.

[xr7g428]

Oh there still are waiting lit's they are just significantly shorter. A massive cash injection was made. Most of what Canada has isnot paid for by taxes, but rather the money from trade surplses. Some patients are sent to the US or out of their home province to get treatment. Some provinces, like mine, have things very under control while others don't.

 

I don't see Americans going to Canada for treatment, but I do see Canadians here by the droves. How did they convince you that waiting was appropriate treatment for any medical condition?

 

I have a great idea. Let's tax the hell out of all of the medicines invented in the US. We will only drop the taxes with countries that have equivalent medicines for trade. We can use the money to fund our health care system. What were there, something like three new medical patents out of Canada last year?

 

Let's start with the OPEC countries.

[suv_guy_19]

I don't see Americans going to Canada for treatment, but I do see Canadians here by the droves. How did they convince you that waiting was appropriate treatment for any medical condition?

 

I have a great idea. Let's tax the hell out of all of the medicines invented in the US. We will only drop the taxes with countries that have equivalent medicines for trade. We can use the money to fund our health care system. What were there, something like three new medical patents out of Canada last year?

 

Let's start with the OPEC countries.

 

 

Thats simply because you cannot buy treatment in Canada. I don't see Canadians going down in droves, thats an overestimation. If its an emergency you don't wait, and if it isn't in most cases you no longer wait very long. Every vsit to the doctor is already paid for, every MRI, CT or PT.

 

We pay less for medication than you, and I have news for you, a few major drug companies are located in Canada, it was a lot more than three. Our testing procedures are more rigorus and it takes usually about 2 extra years to make sure the medicine is safe here because of the extra testing. While were on the subject of medication, its too bad none of your seniors can afford the ones south of the border. They have to order them From Manitoba nd Ontario interne pharmacies. How about flu shots, I remember in 2005 when 10's of thousands of americans had to be brought to Canada because the US idn't have enough.

 

Oh and if your going to stop the medical supply and start charging more, perhaps we should do the same for Oil, we are soon to be the worlds largest exporter and I beleive almost all of it goes to you. What about electricity,water, need I go on. 85% of what we export goes to the US, so don't say that we have nothing to offer.

[Extreme4x4]

Well, if you are going to get smug about it............... why don't we talk about military spending. You don't have to spend much............ because we provide it.

 

I was born in Canada. A lot of my relatives still live in Canada. My grandmother died because of the wonderful Canadian healthcare system................... and I still know, and see, large amounts of Canadians coming to the US to get the proceedures that they want or need to get. The thing is, these are the Canadians with money. The have-nots just sit on a waiting list.

 

It is admiral that you love your country............. as you should. However, your "more government is good government" has truly pulled the wool over your eyes. It is quite obvious that the propoganda has worked.

 

Canada is a wonderful country................ and the US is also. They have many positive things, and many negative. I truly believe that our healthcare system sucks................ but yours isn't much better. There has to be a better solution.

[suv_guy_19]

Well, if you are going to get smug about it............... why don't we talk about military spending. You don't have to spend much............ because we provide it.

 

I was born in Canada. A lot of my relatives still live in Canada. My grandmother died because of the wonderful Canadian healthcare system................... and I still know, and see, large amounts of Canadians coming to the US to get the proceedures that they want or need to get. The thing is, these are the Canadians with money. The have-nots just sit on a waiting list.

 

It is admiral that you love your country............. as you should. However, your "more government is good government" has truly pulled the wool over your eyes. It is quite obvious that the propoganda has worked.

 

Canada is a wonderful country................ and the US is also. They have many positive things, and many negative. I truly believe that our healthcare system sucks................ but yours isn't much better. There has to be a better solution.

 

 

I agree with everything that you said but I was not getting smug. I didn't start it. i was simply reminding him that the US is not the world and we don't all depend on you for everything. Yes the protection that you give s very important. I suppose I may see things differently because I live where I do and things are undergoing cnstant improvement. And, the waiting lists have gotten significantly shorter. People die under the care of both countries health systems all of the time. Accidents, misdiagnosis, it happens all of the time, we jsut pray it doesn't happen to us.

 

I love my country, and I don't hate yours, but people too often look down on Canada, Canadians included. I have been trying to change that. Its not what I'm doing here. This all started with arguents over health care. More gvernment is not bad government. You jsut have to have the right checks and balances in place.

 

Both countries as you say are wonderful, but neither of them have a whole lot of negtaives, and really hav a great deal of positives. There is a better solution to healthcare. France has it, and no atter what people say it works. We are currently trying to move to that model, I hope it works for us like it did for them.

Edited September 19, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[matthewq4b]

Most of Canada's healthcare systems were way over spending 20 and 30 years ago it is just how the system was set up. Spending was out of control with little or no checks and balances. The Feds scaled back funding in an attempt to get the provinces to better manage the monies spent The provinces in turn (especially Alberta And Ontario) cut back to the bone and further. Patients suffered for it and people died cause of it. I will not kid you on that.

 

But now we are seeing a balance finally being achieved cost effective with appropriate levels of service. It has been a 40 year learning experience to fine tune our healthcare. Yes there are still issues but they are being fixed. Progress is being made.

 

Medical practitioners here can not charge what ever they like. They have a schedule of fees they can charge for services. The fees are adjusted per region and province. Basically all medical personal here are Gov't employees either directly or indirectly. Bottom line their pay checks come from the tax payers.

 

As for cost, Canada's system is far cheaper than the U.S's per capita and delivers a higher standard of care.

The U.S Gov't spends more per capita on health care than any other nation on the planet. Yet only 40% of U.S citizens are covered by the Government funded system.

By all rights the U.S should have the best health care on the planet and be able to cover 100% of the citizens.

 

Our cure and survival rates are better than in the U.S for basically everything. I think the main reason for this is, that the physicians are deciding what treatments will and can be used and not an Insurance company or HMO that has to be cost conscience so they can insure that they show profits to share holders.

 

The single biggest cultural difference between the states and the U.S is that most all Canadians regardless of status. Find the idea of corporations and share holders profiting off the care of the sick and the ill distasteful and for some down right disgusting. Illness affects every body regardless of age, status, or health.

 

Some comment that universal health care will promote people to not take care of them selves with either diet or exercise. But the opposite seems to be true the U.S has about the most out of shape and over weight citizens on the planet. The is could be argued 2 ways I suppose , that citizens are that way do to the fact that they do not readily go to the doctor unless some thing is seriously wrong due to costs, There for physicians do not see patents regularly and are not able to intervene when a patient is starting to show signs of excessive weight gain or able to give them information on lifestyle changes or able refer them to the appropriate Gov't funded specialists (dietitians ETC). It could also be argued that the people in the U.S are prosperous enough that they are more idle and have better or richer diets than most places. That angle holds up to most of the planet, until you make the same comparison to Canada.

 

 

The facts speak for them selves. The Canadian and most universal systems costs less per capita, and Deliver a higher standard of care over all. Canada and other national systems have a higher success and survivability rate over all for curing illnesses. That is why Canadians and many nations with Universal coverage have longer average life spans than Americans.

 

Is the Canadian system perfect. Absolutely not. It is not the most cost effective or the best. But we are trying to move towards a perfect balance between cost and appropriate levels of care. Some thing that has just been concentrated on in the last few years.

 

 

At some point and time U.S citizens have ask why is your government spending more per-capita than any other nation on health care to cover only 40% of the population.

 

There is some thing seriously wrong with the current U.S System. Strait for profit private healthcare it seems does not work. Not from a cost perspective nor from a quality of care or coverage perspective.

 

 

 

Matthew