ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Also, why stop at the fat person or the smoker? Should I have to pay for the person who speeds excessively? Should I pay for person who forgot to look where they were going and tripped on stuff on the floor? Should I pay for the person having unprotected sex? Should I pay for the person who works with hazardous materials? Should I pay for the person who decides to hand glide? Should I pay for the person who decides to ever leave his house because it is so much safer being a shut-in? Should I pay for the person who travels to Southeast Asia and gets bird flu? And how much can we even control? I'd think in regards to what we can control given what card we are dealt, death, serious injury and a terrible quality of life should be enough deterrence. Paternalism and shame from other people who don't want to pay their health care bill is unnecessary. Everytime a company attempts to offer targeted insurance they get sued for discrimination. Can you imagine the outrage if two males with the exact same health got difference insurance rates because one was white and one was black, even though statistics show the black person has higher risks? And show me a study that connects excessive speed to accidents. I'd connect careless driving to accidents, cell phones for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 If more people were healthy, guess what, the UAW would have been able to keep the sweet health benefits they had cause they wouldn't have cost so damn much. Really. Do you have a basis for this? Is the cost of treatment going up? Or is the incidence of treatment going up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Ironically, there was some research report conducted awhile back, and reported on yesturday on some news station, stating that IF PAID, people were willing to lose weight. Supposedly the group consisted of people being paid $7 for each percentage of fat they lost. And next up after that is, Insurance companies looking into possibly requiring higher premiums for people who are overweight, and incentives for those who are in their correct weight range... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 How is it not fair? Is it because the 'fat' guy 'wants' to be 'fat'? Sounds fine to me. While we're at it, let's round up all those people with depression and make them pay for their own psych bills. They 'want' to be depressed. Let's just start developing a list of health issues that people 'want' to have, and give them their own insurance pools, and maybe even their own segregated work areas, and so forth. I mean really, Shock. Once you start down that road, there is absolutely no valid basis for drawing the line anywhere. You either make it equal across all participants, or you start drawing distinctions. Remembering of course, that the only basis for any distinction is 'because', and that's no valid distinction at all. Because depressed people can control that chemical imbalance just as well as obese people control eating too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Really. Do you have a basis for this? Is the cost of treatment going up? Or is the incidence of treatment going up? It's cost, because now if you get a heart attack at age 60 cause you're obese, you get 6 drugs and tons of tests and other procedures. Before you would just be SOL, get aspirin and hope for the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Everytime a company attempts to offer targeted insurance they get sued for discrimination. You say you'll change the constitution Well, you know We all want to change your head You tell me it's the institution Well, you know You better free your mind instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Because depressed people can control that chemical imbalance just as well as obese people control eating too much. Wow. You really are 23, aren't you? --- Wilson: "My God, she's 26." House: "Yes, but with the wisdom of a much younger woman." --- There's no point in continuing this debate. Call me back when you grow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Very interesting, l find some of the figures hard to believe, Iraq has a better mortality rates than the Bahamas. Bahamas is not a good place to retire to, or a good place to take vacation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Wow. You really are 23, aren't you? --- Wilson: "My God, she's 26." House: "Yes, but with the wisdom of a much younger woman." --- There's no point in continuing this debate. Call me back when you grow up. Technically I'm now 2 minutes more grown up than last time. It's like hearing people complain about being unhealthy/overweight as they dine at McDonalds. There is no reason for a child (ok, 99% of them) to be overweight. It is simply unacceptable and a failure of society. If you refuse to believe that obesity is controllable this debate has to end because you are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 your post disproves your point - the interior dimensions for the front row are within millimeters of each other .. and that is for a car that is quite a bit smaller on the outside. IE: the EU C1 Focus wastes space. Igor Personaly I feel there is much more space inside my C1 Focus compared to my C170. I cannot agree with your assumption of wasted space in the C1, my perception is that there is much more useable space in my C1. You have a C1 vehicle, do you feel you have less or wasted space when you compare to the C170? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 If you refuse to believe that obesity is controllable Of course it's controllable. The point is your eagerness to assign blame. To be satisfied with simple, easy, and comfortable answers. http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/backpages.html "Fearing not that I'd become my enemy In the instant that I preach" A favorite Dylan song of mine, and my favorite song by the Byrds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted October 5, 2007 Author Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) Personaly I feel there is much more space inside my C1 Focus compared to my C170. I cannot agree with your assumption of wasted space in the C1, my perception is that there is much more useable space in my C1. You have a C1 vehicle, do you feel you have less or wasted space when you compare to the C170? Mazda3 <> C1 Focus - not even in dimensions my point was that the exterior dimensions of the C2 Focus was quite a bit larger than those of the C170, however the interior dimensions - at least in the first row are identical ..if you have a car that is wider, longer and taller, but it does not give you any extra space on the inside - the space is wasted. Edge is a similar example - it actually has LESS shoulder room than the Escape despite being about 4 inches wider on the outside. Igor vvvv Not Mine. Edited October 5, 2007 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Of course it's controllable. The point is your eagerness to assign blame. To be satisfied with simple, easy, and comfortable answers. http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/backpages.html "Fearing not that I'd become my enemy In the instant that I preach" A favorite Dylan song of mine, and my favorite song by the Byrds. You're not even making sense. How can you lump obesity with despression then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) How can you lump obesity with despression then? Because they're unhealthy states. Because they predispose you to other unhealthy conditions. You are the one that wants easy answers. You are the one that claims to -have- the answers. Not me. I don't have the answers to the widely distributed health issues in this country (which does include depression). I'm not going to sit here and blame 'fat' people for being fat, depressed people for being depressed, etc. That's your game. It's what you've been doing all along. You have an abundance of health, and like someone with an abundance of money asserting that people 'choose' to be poor, it suits your worldview to assume that everyone else can be like you if they just put some effort into it. Keeps you from having to acknowledge that you have no control over large parts of your life. By no means would I want you to drop a viewpoint that works so well for you, but don't come around here proselytizing. Edited October 5, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Mazda3 <> C1 Focus - not even in dimensions my point was that the exterior dimensions of the C2 Focus was quite a bit larger than those of the C170, however the interior dimensions - at least in the first row are identical ..if you have a car that is wider, longer and taller, but it does not give you any extra space on the inside - the space is wasted. Edge is a similar example - it actually has LESS shoulder room than the Escape despite being about 4 inches wider on the outside. Igor vvvv Not Mine. I will enjoy my fantasy then that I perceive to have much more space when sitting in my C1 Focus then when I sit in my C170, but that is just "my reality", no matter what the tape measure states. So are you trading in the Mazda3 for the 2008 C170? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 my point was that the exterior dimensions of the C2 Focus was quite a bit larger than those of the C170, however the interior dimensions - at least in the first row are identical ..if you have a car that is wider, longer and taller, but it does not give you any extra space on the inside - the space is wasted. What's the interior volume? Space measurements are governed by a set of obscure SAE regs, and can be impacted by arm rest placement, and so forth, without capturing 'spaciousness', interior volume seems to be a better measure of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Because they're unhealthy states. Because they predispose you to other unhealthy conditions. You are the one that wants easy answers. You are the one that claims to -have- the answers. Not me. I don't have the answers to the widely distributed health issues in this country (which does include depression). I'm not going to sit here and blame 'fat' people for being fat, depressed people for being depressed, etc. That's your game. It's what you've been doing all along. You have an abundance of health, and like someone with an abundance of money asserting that people 'choose' to be poor, it suits your worldview to assume that everyone else can be like you if they just put some effort into it. Keeps you from having to acknowledge that you have no control over large parts of your life. By no means would I want you to drop a viewpoint that works so well for you, but don't come around here proselytizing. I'm seriously debating if you understand reading comprehension at ALL. First, obesity is preventable. I was unaware depression and other chemical imbalances were as well. Clearly the advantage is you can treat depression with a pill, but it's harder to catch cause you're not spilling fat rolls out of your pants when you're depressed. Seconds, I have made no such claim to answers, nor am I blaming fat people for being fat. I'm blaming fat people for eating McDonalds and making no effort to exercise. I'm blaming people for the own bad choices they themselves made. No, you can't just change your wealth or health state with the snap of your fingers. But when I see what some people do to their bodies, it's their own damn fault. And you can keep being in denial of the hard choices that would give you control of your life. That's how you defend Ford as well, looks like you're a winner to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Seconds, I have made no such claim to answers, nor am I blaming fat people for being fat. I'm blaming fat people for eating McDonalds and making no effort to exercise. I'm blaming people for the own bad choices they themselves made. First part of this sentence (underline) is a direct contradiction of the second part (bold). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShockFX Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 First part of this sentence (underline) is a direct contradiction of the second part (bold). Turns out, that's not the same as blaming fat people for being fat. It's indentifying the reason they are fat and blaming them for that. If someone has AIDS, I don't blame them for a low white blood cell count, I blame them for how they got it. You are confusing symptoms with causes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 Turns out, that's not the same as blaming fat people for being fat. It's indentifying the reason they are fat and blaming them for that. If someone has AIDS, I don't blame them for a low white blood cell count, I blame them for how they got it. You are confusing symptoms with causes. Probably not a good example. But hey..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 You're not even making sense. How can you lump obesity with despression then? Dude.... You really are 23... (wait I am 18) but seriously, people eat a lot when they're depressed... That's what I do but I am not fat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 First, obesity is preventable. I was unaware depression and other chemical imbalances were as well. Clearly the advantage is you can treat depression with a pill Absolutely none of those statements has been established. 1) There is debate over the extent to which genetics controls weight. 2) There is debate over the extent to which mental states contribute to chemical imbalances in depression. This is very much a 'chicken or egg' subject. It is known that mental states affect neurotransmitter production, but it is as well known that neurotransmitter concentration affects mental state. 3) Very few professionals advocate treatment of serious depression exclusively with pills. As with people that are dangerously overweight, medication and therapy are both required. As far as 'hard choices' are concerned, I reiterate my assertion that you are primarily interested in 'easy' answers. You say that overweight people are unwilling to make hard choices, and it makes you feel superior to them because you feel that you've made those hard choices that they haven't. You should be ashamed of yourself. You don't live their life, you -can't- live their life, and if you would like me to cut you slack for the rank immaturity, the close-mindedness, the childishness, of your philosophy, then you should earn it by replacing your scorn and derision with a fair bit of empathy. Your weaknesses, right now, may not seem to cost you anything like the penalty an obese person's weaknesses impose on him. But there will come a day when your weaknesses will betray you, in fact they may have already done so, and you will deserve all the sympathy that you've shown your fellow humans. And we are all humans, none greater or less than any of the rest of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 It's not much of a blame game. This is just an evolutionary process. Obesity, depression, and addiction are just variations of mental weakness and sickness. Nature, at the end, decides who lives on and who will face an early demise. Turns out, that's not the same as blaming fat people for being fat. It's indentifying the reason they are fat and blaming them for that. If someone has AIDS, I don't blame them for a low white blood cell count, I blame them for how they got it. You are confusing symptoms with causes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 You are confusing symptoms with causes. No. The symptoms exist because of the cause. Ergo, blame for the cause equates to blame for the symptom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted October 5, 2007 Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) Turns out, that's not the same as blaming fat people for being fat. It's indentifying the reason they are fat and blaming them for that. If someone has AIDS, I don't blame them for a low white blood cell count, I blame them for how they got it. You are confusing symptoms with causes. You're a hyprocite. I know that without a shadow of a doubt that if we examined your lifestyle and the choices you make, there would be something in which "blame" could be assigned to you so that the rest of us wouldn't be encumbered with the cost. If you say there isn't then you're a liar as well. Edited October 5, 2007 by TomServo92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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