igor Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...p;rssfeed=rss01 Gioia: Ford hybrids will be profitable this year Richard Truett Automotive News January 15, 2008 - 12:01 am ET DETROIT -- By the end of this year, Ford Motor Co.'s hybrid vehicle program is expected to be profitable for the first time. Nancy Gioia, Ford's director of sustainable mobility technologies and hybrid vehicle programs, said that since production started in 2004, Ford has chopped about 30 percent of the cost out of making the Escape, Mercury Mariner and Mazda Tribute hybrid SUVs. She said the improvements have come from better batteries, upgrades to the electrical system that governs the hybrid powertrain and less complex controls. Gioia said Ford expects its hybrid vehicles to make money once hybrid versions of the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan sedans start production later this year. Ford sells around 21,000 Escape and Mariner hybrids per year. Ford has not said how many hybrid Fusion and Milan sedans it expects to sell, but the price of batteries and the vehicles' hybrid transmission will drop once the volume increases. Escape, Mariner, Tribute, Fusion and Milan will share the same basic powertrain and battery pack. Gioia also said Ford is exploring gasoline-electric hybrids that use the company's new EcoBoost system. EcoBoost uses a turbocharger and direct fuel injection to improve fuel economy and lower emissions. Gioia said a hybrid with EcoBoost could have a much smaller gasoline engine without hurting performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Holy crap that's good news....!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti...p;rssfeed=rss01 Gioia: Ford hybrids will be profitable this year Richard Truett Automotive News January 15, 2008 - 12:01 am ET DETROIT -- By the end of this year, Ford Motor Co.'s hybrid vehicle program is expected to be profitable for the first time. Nancy Gioia, Ford's director of sustainable mobility technologies and hybrid vehicle programs, said that since production started in 2004, Ford has chopped about 30 percent of the cost out of making the Escape, Mercury Mariner and Mazda Tribute hybrid SUVs. She said the improvements have come from better batteries, upgrades to the electrical system that governs the hybrid powertrain and less complex controls. Gioia said Ford expects its hybrid vehicles to make money once hybrid versions of the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan sedans start production later this year. Ford sells around 21,000 Escape and Mariner hybrids per year. Ford has not said how many hybrid Fusion and Milan sedans it expects to sell, but the price of batteries and the vehicles' hybrid transmission will drop once the volume increases. Escape, Mariner, Tribute, Fusion and Milan will share the same basic powertrain and battery pack. Gioia also said Ford is exploring gasoline-electric hybrids that use the company's new EcoBoost system. EcoBoost uses a turbocharger and direct fuel injection to improve fuel economy and lower emissions. Gioia said a hybrid with EcoBoost could have a much smaller gasoline engine without hurting performance. quick answer....make a few more, build them quicker ( 3 months and STILL waiting for a vin # on an Escape Hybrid for the city of Costa Mesa ) bump prices up ( like they did 2 months ago...$1000 bump in cost!!!! ).........they are still selling as soon as they hit the lot. I still wonder why the Fusion hybrid has taken so long....I HOPE it is because it has been developed to perfection..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I wonder who they are getting batteries from, which I understand is the main sticking point of the Escape Hybrid only selling in small numbers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 I wonder who they are getting batteries from, which I understand is the main sticking point of the Escape Hybrid only selling in small numbers... could be wrong but Toyota is wrapped up in there somewhere.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted January 15, 2008 Share Posted January 15, 2008 Well, lets see. The current powerpack in the Escape, IIRC, uses a 2.3L I4 configured to run the atkinson cycle. The 2.3L in that configuration produces something in the neighborhood of 150 hp and 145 lbs of torque. To extrapolate the numbers here a bit, a 1.8L Ecoboost engine (with the usual turbo arrangement) would make similar power and consume less gasoline doing it without needing the complexity of the atkinson cycle to do so. It might weigh the same due to the turbos and plumbing, but, in highway cycle operation, you could be looking at an improvement of a couple mpg by making the swap. I'd still like to see an engine option in the Fusion or B car of a 1.3L ecoboost. I think, coupled with a CVT, that such a combo could return excellent mpg while still making a useful vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 (edited) Well, lets see. The current powerpack in the Escape, IIRC, uses a 2.3L I4 configured to run the atkinson cycle. The 2.3L in that configuration produces something in the neighborhood of 150 hp and 145 lbs of torque. To extrapolate the numbers here a bit, a 1.8L Ecoboost engine (with the usual turbo arrangement) would make similar power and consume less gasoline doing it without needing the complexity of the atkinson cycle to do so. It might weigh the same due to the turbos and plumbing, but, in highway cycle operation, you could be looking at an improvement of a couple mpg by making the swap. I'd still like to see an engine option in the Fusion or B car of a 1.3L ecoboost. I think, coupled with a CVT, that such a combo could return excellent mpg while still making a useful vehicle. The Atkinson cycle is not complex. It only has a change in the timing of the intake Cam. Atkins cycle short fall in power can be made up by using direct injection. If ford used some variable cam timing magic and Turbocharging in an atkins cycle engine they could end up with the equivalent to a variable displacement engine. Amagine being able to switch between a normal compression atkin engine to a normal high compression turbo engine just by adjusting the intake cam. The new engines in Fords ecoboost line sound on the large size for a economy engine to me. But sized right for an atkins engine. It would not suprise me if this is their plan. At one time Ford was promising 30% gain in fuel efficiency. Now they are promising 15% gain over a V8. Lately Ford has been giving disinformation to catch the competition off guard. This is how I would do the math. Atkins cycle +15% gain, direct injection +10%, Down sizing with turbo??, Dual clutch transmision +10%. Adds up to 35% plus fuel efficiency gain plus the power of a huge engine. Who needs hybrids with this tech. Edited January 16, 2008 by battyr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 With boost on an atkinson cycle engine, don't you wind up back with a Miller cycle engine like Mazda used in the Milennia S with its 2.?L (I think it was 2.3L or so) supercharged miller cycle engine? Didn't that flop for them? Now, if they were thinking about going variable displacement with a computer controlled turbo, that's a different story. Using a smaller engine with a turbo that was infinitely variable between being effectively a smallish turbo that spools up quickly and a gigantic turbo that moves maximum air would be ideal. That way, the engine could be at WOT for more of the duty cycle and let the turbo and fuel management system control the airflow. You'd also need variable lift and duration on the cams as well to make it work at its most efficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 With boost on an atkinson cycle engine, don't you wind up back with a Miller cycle engine like Mazda used in the Milennia S with its 2.?L (I think it was 2.3L or so) supercharged miller cycle engine? Didn't that flop for them? Now, if they were thinking about going variable displacement with a computer controlled turbo, that's a different story. Using a smaller engine with a turbo that was infinitely variable between being effectively a smallish turbo that spools up quickly and a gigantic turbo that moves maximum air would be ideal. That way, the engine could be at WOT for more of the duty cycle and let the turbo and fuel management system control the airflow. You'd also need variable lift and duration on the cams as well to make it work at its most efficient. Yes, it would be a Miller cycle. Technically the Mazda Miller cycle engine worked. It was a marketing failure. People would not pay more money for a luxury car at that time with a 2.0 L when they could buy a 3.0 L cheaper. If you increase the efficiency gain from 15% to 30% at today’s fuel prices, then you can get some attention. Technically a Miller cycle should have a supercharger, but if Ford could get enough low rpm boost from a twin turbo, it should work. Personally I think Ford should be selling an inline-6 version of an Ecoboost in the 2.0L to 2.5L range. The engine will have a Premium price, so should have the smoothness of a 6. Mazda has a Miller cycle in the Mazda-2 but without a supercharger. Technically this would really be a Atkins cycle. Adjusting the intake cam (or using turbos) would make it a variable displacement engine. The problem is when you increase the displacement you also increase the compression. I think the use of direct injection and ethanol should overcome this. The real question is, how is Ford getting so much boost at such a low rpm with turbos, and getting such a flat torq curve? I suspect they are using staged twin-turbos. I have only heard of this being used in production diesel engines and in racing engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Yeah, they're using staged twin turbos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 (edited) Personally I think Ford should be selling an inline-6 version of an Ecoboost in the 2.0L to 2.5L range. The engine will have a Premium price, so should have the smoothness of a 6. They sell the 2.5 Inline Turbo now in Focus ST and Mondeo. A short 3.0 inline 6 basically the same length as the I-5 is also available and will fit in these cars. Edited January 16, 2008 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 They sell the 2.5 Inline Turbo now in Focus ST and Mondeo.A short 3.0 inline 6 basically the same length as the I-5 is also available and will fit in these cars. Great. Make it fit into an American Fusion and make it an Ecoboost. Shink it from 3.0 to 2.5. I don't like paying for gas. Hell, make it a 2.0 L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted January 16, 2008 Share Posted January 16, 2008 Great. Make it fit into an American Fusion and make it an Ecoboost. Shink it from 3.0 to 2.5. I don't like paying for gas. Hell, make it a 2.0 L. Better yet, Make it a 1.3 L and a Full Hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 That's good news to hear that the Hybrids will begin to turn a profit. Curious, does Toyota profit on their hybrids? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 (edited) I wonder who they are getting batteries from, which I understand is the main sticking point of the Escape Hybrid only selling in small numbers... Weren't they getting Escape's batteries from Toyota's supplier or something like that? Edited January 18, 2008 by rmc523 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmc523 Posted January 18, 2008 Share Posted January 18, 2008 The Atkinson cycle is not complex. It only has a change in the timing of the intake Cam. Atkins cycle short fall in power can be made up by using direct injection. If ford used some variable cam timing magic and Turbocharging in an atkins cycle engine they could end up with the equivalent to a variable displacement engine. Amagine being able to switch between a normal compression atkin engine to a normal high compression turbo engine just by adjusting the intake cam. The new engines in Fords ecoboost line sound on the large size for a economy engine to me. But sized right for an atkins engine. It would not suprise me if this is their plan. At one time Ford was promising 30% gain in fuel efficiency. Now they are promising 15% gain over a V8. Lately Ford has been giving disinformation to catch the competition off guard. This is how I would do the math. Atkins cycle +15% gain, direct injection +10%, Down sizing with turbo??, Dual clutch transmision +10%. Adds up to 35% plus fuel efficiency gain plus the power of a huge engine. Who needs hybrids with this tech. Wouldn't you release false info to catch the competition off guard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunebuster Posted February 1, 2008 Share Posted February 1, 2008 Ford hybrid batteries comes from Sanyo, not PEVE-Panasonic The volume problem is not batteries, but transaxle capacity from Aisin, as Toyota and Nissan get first dibs. Ford was going to try and inhouse transaxles but, well, go figure.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted February 2, 2008 Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) DETROIT -- By the end of this year, Ford Motor Co.'s hybrid vehicle program is expected to be profitable for the first time. Holy crap that's RETARDED....!!! Fixed. Edited February 5, 2008 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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