trade consolidation

[newone]

can some one tell me how this is supposed to go. at our plant they combined the pyrometry and electricians and called them electricians. however they are still being treated as seperate trades when it comes to work and o.t. . my question is are they allowed to deny the electricians the overtime the pyro's are getting( we are all the same classification now). when the ovens leave you can bet they will be sucking up what little o.t. we get.

[level]

can some one tell me how this is supposed to go. at our plant they combined the pyrometry and electricians and called them electricians. however they are still being treated as seperate trades when it comes to work and o.t. . my question is are they allowed to deny the electricians the overtime the pyro's are getting( we are all the same classification now). when the ovens leave you can bet they will be sucking up what little o.t. we get.

 

You are combined for name and pay rate only at this time. Training is being developed for all trades consolidating, and until they are trained and interchangeable (safety is priority) they are not to combine completely. The training for Pyro/Electrictician is probably the most training out of all, followed by Pipefitter/Hydraulic. Look for individualized training to start within one to two months. It will take that long to get the training classes and indivdual surveys done. There is no rush to hurry up and hurt someone, so a thourough overview is being done.

[newone]

You are combined for name and pay rate only at this time. Training is being developed for all trades consolidating, and until they are trained and interchangeable (safety is priority) they are not to combine completely. The training for Pyro/Electrictician is probably the most training out of all, followed by Pipefitter/Hydraulic. Look for individualized training to start within one to two months. It will take that long to get the training classes and indivdual surveys done. There is no rush to hurry up and hurt someone, so a thourough overview is being done.

thanks level. i have one more question for you. we are going to be involved in a very large downsizing at out plant in the near future. the plant chairman and manager have both told us a gen pool is going to be started. there are no pyro"s with enough senority on the electrician list to make it past the cut. so were gonna have pyros working (classified as electricians) with less senority than electricians who are going to be in gen. thats not going to bode well with some . most of the electricians in the plant were given an 8 hour training on how to fire up their ovens my question is where does the line get drawn?

[level]

thanks level. i have one more question for you. we are going to be involved in a very large downsizing at out plant in the near future. the plant chairman and manager have both told us a gen pool is going to be started. there are no pyro"s with enough senority on the electrician list to make it past the cut. so were gonna have pyros working (classified as electricians) with less senority than electricians who are going to be in gen. thats not going to bode well with some . most of the electricians in the plant were given an 8 hour training on how to fire up their ovens my question is where does the line get drawn?

 

There are a couple of concerns I have here.

 

#1.) What plant are you at, and what is the exact reason of the downsizing/JSP pool? The reason I ask is due to the fact that no layoffs or reductions can be done as a direct result of the consolidation. If it is for another reason, it wouldn't fit this criteria, but I want to make sure.

 

2.) If the elctricians/pyrometers cannot do eachothers job safely and interchangeably (most cannot without a significant amount of training) then the Company cannot expect them to do it just to reach some predetermined number. They will have to keep on more people to do the job safely. This is one of the largest , most comprehensive consolidations of them all, it cannot be done unsafely or hap-hazardly just to get to someone's predetermined number. Conversely, and... as it sounds in your imminent case, we cannot allow tradespersons to be used interchangeably where the training has not been developed and completed on an individual basis. This may mean that some of the pyros are still working, as they are not truly combined with the electricians yet, except in classification and pay rate only at this point...and vice versa. This problem may be avoidable though, depending on how long it will be before this action takes place at your location, if we could get the training done beforehand.

 

I understand if you do not want to identify yourself, but if you PM me with your plant name, I will have the situation looked over to see if it can be avoided. Best not to have bad blood between combining trades if it can be helped. It's not their fault, and I will do whatever I can.

[Glow]

There are a couple of concerns I have here.

 

#1.) What plant are you at, and what is the exact reason of the downsizing/JSP pool? The reason I ask is due to the fact that no layoffs or reductions can be done as a direct result of the consolidation. If it is for another reason, it wouldn't fit this criteria, but I want to make sure.

 

2.) If the elctricians/pyrometers cannot do eachothers job safely and interchangeably (most cannot without a significant amount of training) then the Company cannot expect them to do it just to reach some predetermined number. They will have to keep on more people to do the job safely. This is one of the largest , most comprehensive consolidations of them all, it cannot be done unsafely or hap-hazardly just to get to someone's predetermined number. Conversely, and... as it sounds in your imminent case, we cannot allow tradespersons to be used interchangeably where the training has not been developed and completed on an individual basis. This may mean that some of the pyros are still working, as they are not truly combined with the electricians yet, except in classification and pay rate only at this point...and vice versa. This problem may be avoidable though, depending on how long it will be before this action takes place at your location, if we could get the training done beforehand.

 

I understand if you do not want to identify yourself, but if you PM me with your plant name, I will have the situation looked over to see if it can be avoided. Best not to have bad blood between combining trades if it can be helped. It's not their fault, and I will do whatever I can.

 

 

 

Only my two cents level, I think he/she is at Ypsilanti. They are still the only one's with the Pyrometer category that has NOT combined it with the electrician. Also, Ypsilanti has the "ovens" to be moved out.

But again I could be wrong.................

[Pioneer]

Only my two cents level, I think he/she is at Ypsilanti. They are still the only one's with the Pyrometer category that has NOT combined it with the electrician.

 

 

Monroe still has the Pyrometers and Electricians segregated..

[182]

So does Livonia.

[newone]

There are a couple of concerns I have here.

 

#1.) What plant are you at, and what is the exact reason of the downsizing/JSP pool? The reason I ask is due to the fact that no layoffs or reductions can be done as a direct result of the consolidation. If it is for another reason, it wouldn't fit this criteria, but I want to make sure.

 

2.) If the elctricians/pyrometers cannot do eachothers job safely and interchangeably (most cannot without a significant amount of training) then the Company cannot expect them to do it just to reach some predetermined number. They will have to keep on more people to do the job safely. This is one of the largest , most comprehensive consolidations of them all, it cannot be done unsafely or hap-hazardly just to get to someone's predetermined number. Conversely, and... as it sounds in your imminent case, we cannot allow tradespersons to be used interchangeably where the training has not been developed and completed on an individual basis. This may mean that some of the pyros are still working, as they are not truly combined with the electricians yet, except in classification and pay rate only at this point...and vice versa. This problem may be avoidable though, depending on how long it will be before this action takes place at your location, if we could get the training done beforehand.

 

I understand if you do not want to identify yourself, but if you PM me with your plant name, I will have the situation looked over to see if it can be avoided. Best not to have bad blood between combining trades if it can be helped. It's not their fault, and I will do whatever I can.

 

 

thanks again level. i am at the rawsonville plant. the downsizing is due to outsourcing of lines. The ovens that are leaving are die cast ovens. we are recieving the cop ovens from ypsi

Edited March 18, 2008 by newone

[level]

thanks again level. i am at the rawsonville plant. the downsizing is due to outsourcing of lines. The ovens that are leaving are die cast ovens. we are recieving the cop ovens from ypsi

 

Prior to negotiations consolidations, it was my understanding that at Rawsonville you had already combined these two trades,

 

data shows that nearly 61 Electricians were all classified as "Electrician & Pyrometer Repair" which is the only place that classification existed, and that you only had 3 tradespersons classified as just "Pyrometer Repair".

 

Is that correct? Meaning 61 could already do the job of both, and 3 could only do the Pyrometer job? Is that your present state?

 

If so then I assume the bigger problem is when the "Pyrometer Repair" transfer with their operations to Rawsonville and the concern is the need to work them on those ovens until all are crosstrained?

Edited March 18, 2008 by level

[newone]

Prior to negotiations consolidations, it was my understanding that at Rawsonville you had already combined these two trades,

 

data shows that nearly 61 Electricians were all classified as "Electrician & Pyrometer Repair" which is the only place that classification existed, and that you only had 3 tradespersons classified as just "Pyrometer Repair".

 

Is that correct? Meaning 61 could already do the job of both, and 3 could only do the Pyrometer job? Is that your present state?

 

If so then I assume the bigger problem is when the "Pyrometer Repair" transfer with their operations to Rawsonville and the concern is the need to work them on those ovens until all are crosstrained?

 

thanks level. yes we were all elect/ pyro for a few years then they took it away from us recently. your numbers sound correct to me. and im not sure theyre giving the new ovens to the pyros

[level]

thanks level. yes we were all elect/ pyro for a few years then they took it away from us recently. your numbers sound correct to me. and im not sure theyre giving the new ovens to the pyros

 

There may be a chance that the buyouts may clear up the excess and there won't be a seniority/layoff issue, but that is dependent on the timing.

Edited March 18, 2008 by level

[pyroperson]

I don't usally reply to postings but this one has hit a sore spot. Why do electricans (not all) think that pyro's want there jobs??? The plant that I work at has 30+ electricans and only two pyro"s. Also we have over 120 gas fired pieces of equipment. Question: Who is going to do all of the safety checks on this equipment??? Does eight hours of training make you an expert ?? I know that when I get cross trained to do electrical work it will take more than eight hours. I don't know about your plant but, the pyro's have alot of other responibilities besides gas fired equipment. Since I have 30+ years I will not be getting laid off until most of the electricans are gone. I didn't ask for the trade consolidation and don't think any plant with the amount of gas fired equipment like mine should throw thw responsibility of maintaining it on trades that are not trained. Last time I looked it took longer than eight hours to learn a trade.

[Westside]

I don't usally reply to postings but this one has hit a sore spot. Why do electricans (not all) think that pyro's want there jobs???

 

It does not matter what the Electricians or Pyrometers think. It was a trade consolidation we all agreed to when we ratified the agreement. Once the National parties agree to actually consolidate then you will all be Electricians performing both electrical and pyrometer tasks.

 

 

The plant that I work at has 30+ electricans and only two pyro"s. Also we have over 120 gas fired pieces of equipment. Question: Who is going to do all of the safety checks on this equipment???

 

The national parties are working on specific training both classroom and hands on. The safety checks, PMs,

repairs, etc.. will be included in the training.

 

 

Does eight hours of training make you an expert ??

 

Who told you 8 hours of training will make you a expert????........Now that is funny.

 

 

I know that when I get cross trained to do electrical work it will take more than eight hours.

 

The Electrician/Pyrometer and Pipefitter/Hydraulic Repair consolidations will need extensive classroom and on the job training.

 

I still don't know where the "8 hour" quote is coming from???

 

Did someone tell you this?? I don't believe it is written in the agreement.

 

 

I don't know about your plant but, the pyro's have alot of other responibilities besides gas fired equipment.

 

 

So true

 

 

Since I have 30+ years I will not be getting laid off until most of the electricans are gone. I didn't ask for the trade consolidation and don't think any plant with the amount of gas fired equipment like mine should throw thw responsibility of maintaining it on trades that are not trained. Last time I looked it took longer than eight hours to learn a trade.

 

Nobody asked for the consolidation. The pattern was set when General Motors first agreed to "umbrella trades" then Chrysler agreed to "umbrella trades"......FYI this means you belong on a maintenance team and everyone does each others work including mechanical doing electrical and vice/versa. The negotiators were successful in breaking pattern and agreeing to 22 total classifications instead of basically one umbrella.

 

Please explain where this 8 hours of training is coming from???

[dunkin]

I don't usally reply to postings but this one has hit a sore spot. Why do electricans (not all) think that pyro's want there jobs??? The plant that I work at has 30+ electricans and only two pyro"s. Also we have over 120 gas fired pieces of equipment. Question: Who is going to do all of the safety checks on this equipment??? Does eight hours of training make you an expert ?? I know that when I get cross trained to do electrical work it will take more than eight hours. I don't know about your plant but, the pyro's have alot of other responibilities besides gas fired equipment. Since I have 30+ years I will not be getting laid off until most of the electricans are gone. I didn't ask for the trade consolidation and don't think any plant with the amount of gas fired equipment like mine should throw thw responsibility of maintaining it on trades that are not trained. Last time I looked it took longer than eight hours to learn a trade.

state of michigan says you have to have a mechanical contractors license catagory #5 or #6 to work on gas fired equipment. fords has been in violation for years.

[skittet150]

Nobody asked for the consolidation. The pattern was set when General Motors first agreed to "umbrella trades" then Chrysler agreed to "umbrella trades"......FYI this means you belong on a maintenance team and everyone does each others work including mechanical doing electrical and vice/versa. The negotiators were successful in breaking pattern and agreeing to 22 total classifications instead of basically one umbrella.

 

Please explain where this 8 hours of training is coming from???

 

You really don't think that the other big 2 will open themselves up to a mega lawsuit and allow mechanical types working in the electrical field, do you? With NFPA 70E, arc flash requirements, and the necessary knowledge of the NEC, they won't. Besides, they agreed to two core trades, mechanical and electrical, and they will keep those seperate.

[Westside]

Nobody asked for the consolidation. The pattern was set when General Motors first agreed to "umbrella trades" then Chrysler agreed to "umbrella trades"......FYI this means you belong on a maintenance team and everyone does each others work including mechanical doing electrical and vice/versa. The negotiators were successful in breaking pattern and agreeing to 22 total classifications instead of basically one umbrella.

 

Please explain where this 8 hours of training is coming from???

 

You really don't think that the other big 2 will open themselves up to a mega lawsuit and allow mechanical types working in the electrical field, do you? With NFPA 70E, arc flash requirements, and the necessary knowledge of the NEC, they won't. Besides, they agreed to two core trades, mechanical and electrical, and they will keep those seperate.

 

 

When they work in teams to support production the "umbrella teams" will do whatever it takes to keep the line running.

 

When it comes to project/construction work they will follow state code.

[whereswaldo]

"umbrella trades"......FYI this means you belong on a maintenance team and everyone does each others work including mechanical doing electrical and vice/versa. The negotiators were successful in breaking pattern and agreeing to 22 total classifications instead of basically one umbrella.[/color]

Wrong. As teams work together, they will do what they are properly trained to do and simply ASSIST others in their team. Trust me no other trades will be doing EL work that is inside a box or other EL REPAIR work. And just because GM/Chrysler agreed to their type of umbrella, you cant say we(I-UAW) didnt agree to consolidation. We did just a diff. type.

[Critic]

When they work in teams to support production the "umbrella teams" will do whatever it takes to keep the line running.

 

When it comes to project/construction work they will follow state code.

Wrong. As teams work together, they will do what they are properly trained to do and simply ASSIST others in their team. Trust me no other trades will be doing EL work that is inside a box or other EL REPAIR work. And just because GM/Chrysler agreed to their type of umbrella, you cant say we(I-UAW) didnt agree to consolidation. We did just a diff. type.

 

:blink: Damn it Wheresnostradamus you seem to be correct again.

I'm like your biggest fan dude!

[Westside]

Wrong. As teams work together, they will do what they are properly trained to do and simply ASSIST others in their team. Trust me no other trades will be doing EL work that is inside a box or other EL REPAIR work. And just because GM/Chrysler agreed to their type of umbrella, you cant say we(I-UAW) didnt agree to consolidation. We did just a diff. type.

 

 

Whereswaldo,

 

You can not be that blind to see what is going on here.

 

I am simply stating to keep the line running, example: sensors, reflectors, touch screens etc... simple Electrical tasks to keep production going. This is the same scenario happening at AAI. Everyone does everyones work. Now as I stated earlier project and construction are different and you will see the Electricians will not let anyone past that golden egg, not to mention it is against state code.

 

GM and Chrysler got their foot in the door and it is not pretty.

 

Someone had made a statement in past threads banging on the AAI umbrellas because the do each others work.

 

AAI has the leanest trades force in the big 3. They operate with 30% less trades than the closest big 3 competitor.

 

Why do you ask? Umbrellas ding, ding, ding..........winner

 

Now IMO I feel we will have more trades working because of the consolidation......A far cry from umbrellas brother.

 

Do you really not see much difference between 2 trades and 22 trades?

[level]

Whereswaldo,

 

You can not be that blind to see what is going on here.

 

I am simply stating to keep the line running, example: sensors, reflectors, touch screens etc... simple Electrical tasks to keep production going. This is the same scenario happening at AAI. Everyone does everyones work. Now as I stated earlier project and construction are different and you will see the Electricians will not let anyone past that golden egg, not to mention it is against state code.

 

GM and Chrysler got their foot in the door and it is not pretty.

 

Someone had made a statement in past threads banging on the AAI umbrellas because the do each others work.

 

AAI has the leanest trades force in the big 3. They operate with 30% less trades than the closest big 3 competitor.

 

Why do you ask? Umbrellas ding, ding, ding..........winner

 

Now IMO I feel we will have more trades working because of the consolidation......A far cry from umbrellas brother.

 

Do you really not see much difference between 2 trades and 22 trades?

 

 

 

[whereswaldo]

Whereswaldo,

You can not be that blind to see what is going on here.

I am simply stating to keep the line running, example: sensors, reflectors, touch screens etc... simple Electrical tasks to keep production going. This is the same scenario happening at AAI. Everyone does everyones work. Now as I stated earlier project and construction are different and you will see the Electricians will not let anyone past that golden egg, not to mention it is against state code.

GM and Chrysler got their foot in the door and it is not pretty.

Somone had made a statement in past threads banging on the AAI umbrellas because the do each others work.

AAI has the leanest trades force in the big 3. They operate with 30% less trades than the closest big 3 competitor.

Why do you ask? Umbrellas ding, ding, ding..........winner

Now IMO I feel we will have more trades working because of the consolidation......A far cry from umbrellas brother.

Do you really not see much difference between 2 trades and 22 trades?

Dude , you need to take a pill. IF you even read what I quoted from you, Your blanket statement of everyone doing each others work is very misleading. I fully understand a MW or PF could move a sensor or reflector in the course of their work. Then state it as such. Many , many a breakdown also does include more involved EL work than this. And that I am setting straight. I never said anything about how efficient AAI is or is not. Just stick to the comments that are quoted and you will make more sense with less noise. Take a lesson from Level.

[whereswaldo]

Please explain where this 8 hours of training is coming from???

 

Its a euphemism. You must be too far removed from the plant floor.

[Westside]

Dude , you need to take a pill. IF you even read what I quoted from you, Your blanket statement of everyone doing each others work is very misleading. I fully understand a MW or PF could move a sensor or reflector in the course of their work. Then state it as such. Many , many a breakdown also does include more involved EL work than this. And that I am setting straight. I never said anything about how efficient AAI is or is not. Just stick to the comments that are quoted and you will make more sense with less noise. Take a lesson from Level.

 

 

Sure I can take a pill......Can you do the same?

[whereswaldo]

Sure I can take a pill......Can you do the same?

Sure. As long as we don't get rep-type responses like that. Happy Easter !

[nvsked]

Dude , you need to take a pill. IF you even read what I quoted from you, Your blanket statement of everyone doing each others work is very misleading. I fully understand a MW or PF could move a sensor or reflector in the course of their work. Then state it as such. Many , many a breakdown also does include more involved EL work than this. And that I am setting straight. I never said anything about how efficient AAI is or is not. Just stick to the comments that are quoted and you will make more sense with less noise. Take a lesson from Level.

 

I don't get it I read it, there are 22 core trades, so any work, in any plant, belongs to one of those 22 crafts, if it belongs to a core craft, why is there a question. What part of a millwright or pipefitter task involves reflectors or sensors. If there is a chance that a millwright or pipefitter in the course of their assigned work, is going to interfere with a sensor then have the electrician move it, disconnect it, edit it out...whatever!

Pyro's and EL are combined into EL trade, doing electrical work. Who is doing gas fired audits...Electricians! no such thing as a pyro Ford got rid of them. What is AAI doing? They should be following suit with the 22 core trades, and if the international needs to act as the contract police, then so be it. Can you say whipsawing. Stick to the contract!!!!