GM is freezing work on 2012 large pickups.

[jpd80]

Everybody complains on how long it takes Ford to get a product to market and the camaro may be DOA to some degree. They screwed this thing up using the zeta platform. Sources say it will be 2 tons of fun. 3900 lbs has been kicked around a lot by the GM insiders. I love the LSX engines but that is too heavy. GM seems really worried about this project as they have leaked tons of photos around. They will have the upper hand for a while but when the 5.0 hits the streets it will be game on. I pray to Jesus that Ford can lighten up the Stang some because I will be ready for a new one in a few years. I think the camaro interior is hideous!

Not true, the 3900 lb quoted is for i the longer wheelbase Pontiac G8/Commodore sedans.

Camaro will be significantly lighter than this but still heavier than the Mustang.

It is only "old' in the eyes of enthuiasts who frequent car shows and internet boards

 

Truh of the matter is, an Ecoboost V6 Mustang will clean the lot up for weight, performance and value for money.

[NickF1011]

Not true, the 3900 lb quoted is for i the longer wheelbase Pontiac G8/Commodore sedans.

Camaro will be significantly lighter than this but still heavier than the Mustang.

It is only "old' in the eyes of enthuiasts who frequent car shows and internet boards

 

Truh of the matter is, an Ecoboost V6 Mustang will clean the lot up for weight, performance and value for money.

 

3885 is the listed curb weight for the G8 V6. G8 GT is listed at 3995. I only suspect maybe a 100-150 lb drop to the Camaro equivalents.

 

As for the old part.....who exactly do you think is going to be the only remaining core audience for pony cars? Those of us who frequent car shows and internet boards.

Edited June 19, 2008 by NickF1011

[Catalepsy]

I've seen no effect on the wealthy to be honest with you. I don't see anyone rushing out to trade their MB or BMW with Buicks. $4 gas is really not that big of a deal. Even if you drive a lot, it's only $300-400 more a month. Hardly anything to panic about for the usual luxury customer.

 

 

I believe one of the things $4 gas is doing is making folks look at vehicles as just that....vehicles. Not status symbols. I suspect more and more people will just look at a car the way a business looks at a truck. You buy what you need to do the job you need done. It doesn't have anything to do with how much money you have (or don't have).

 

If I'm right, and this becomes a trend, then who buys the rolling technology platforms being developed, like the MKS etc? I'm noticing more and more of my friends, who can buy anything with cash, are more and more choosing vehicles for what they will do with it. Need a city car?, buy a Civic or Focus (and they don't buy a fancy Civic either). Need a long distance cruiser, buy a larger sedan or similar. Need to haul or tow, then buy a diesel pickup or Suburban. It's not about money, it's that they have lost some interest in buying the new cars and trucks.

 

More and more, they just buy to fit their needs, and luxury cars are no where on their list. Even my brother recently said, "anyone can buy an expensive car who is stupid about their money, but not everyone can buy an airplane". So if the wealthy no longer consider fancy cars as status symbols, and those wanna be's can't afford them anymore or get financing, where does that leave the car makers? As noted above....how is a new pick up better than an older good condition pickup? I see this as the auto makers greatest long tem problem. How to generate interest in their products. Very few people buy a vehicle because they really need one or their old one is worn out and beyond repair.

[NickF1011]

I've seen no effect on the wealthy to be honest with you. I don't see anyone rushing out to trade their MB or BMW with Buicks. $4 gas is really not that big of a deal. Even if you drive a lot, it's only $300-400 more a month. Hardly anything to panic about for the usual luxury customer.

 

To me it works out to something around $80-90 more a month. Whoopie. It really hasn't changed my habits much. Sure, I quit smoking, but that was motivated more for my health than not being able to afford them.

 

The only difference here is WHERE we are seeing the price increases. People see inflation now every time they fill their gas tank, whereas in the past they wouldn't see it as obviously stated -- for example, their rent would increase $100 a month instead. It ends up being the same inflation, just perceived in different ways. Overall inflation (including fuel prices) is still relatively low at around 5%. Compare this to the 14+% inflation rates around 1980 and you get the idea that the public is OVERREACTING.

[jpd80]

I don't subscribe to the belief that market change is "permanent", there are always people who NEED a certain sized vehicle.

The US dollar suffered significant devaluation due to domestic subprime lending issues at the same time oil went up.

In 12-18 months the dollar is expected to recover, that will force a lowering of oil price and give domestic consumers relief.

Once the economy recovers, some trucks and SUV market will again return and the black clouds of doom will abate.

What the other people do is anyone's guess maybe sedan station wagons will again supplant even CUVs for fuel efficiency.

[RichardJensen]

Another thing--it appears that Treasury & the FRB don't care about the dollar. In the past, statements from Treasury secretaries & Fed chairmen were enough to shore up the dollar, as they implied monetary intervention.

 

Today, no such noise from the US Government, which in an era of fiat currencies means the dollar is free to float downward against more aggressively protected currencies (not to mention the risk factor that the dollar carries due to Iraq).

[Edstock]

So, despite the endless divestitures/restructurings and countless layoffs/buyouts, in the end the Ford has the wrong product for $5 gallon gas, way too much debt, and makes too little profit on smaller cars.

The 4.4 diesel V-8 will be a hot item. The overall market for large vehicles will be smaller, but the market that remains will be captured by offering Eco-Boost V-6's in light-duty F-150 service, and the 4.4 diesel for more rigorous duty.

 

As to profit on smaller cars, considering that the Fusion and the Fiesta are Mexican-sourced, that leaves just the Focus as a domestically-produced smaller-car. Now considering that the Civic is assembled in Canada, and the Corolla in the US, the Asian price advantage of non-union labor, the Focus may not be in that dire a position.

 

Ford has way too much debt? You're entitled to your opinion, however stupid and ill-informed it is. Go check out how much cash-on-hand resides in the Ford bank vaults.

 

So, because of the endless divestitures/restructurings and countless layoffs/buyouts, in the end the Ford has the right product for $5 gallon gas, reasonable debt, and makes reasonable over-all profit on smaller cars. Meanwhile, for people and companies that just have to have a larger vehicle, they are offering new designs like the Flex and the Taurus and the Edge. And the 2K9 Escape's new 6-speed powertrains make it a top value when compared to any of its competition. Meanwhile, there's the Transit Connect coming, a new Lincoln S, with a major re-do on the Z in about 6 months.

 

So you think "Ford has the wrong product"? Sure.

[Critic]

I don't know if you have been watching but the sheer cliff that SUVs and pickups have fallen off is too steep to ever come back again. I'm talking sales and values of both new and used. SUVs and pickups are right in the crosshairs of the American car buyer and the fuel efficiency tradeoff is so powerful that SUVs and pickups currently don't have any demand.

 

When gas went above $3.50 that was the end of SUVs and pickups and consumers are only interested in buying cars that get 30mpg combined. Think I am wrong, look at the sales and for more proof, listen to the commercials. They all say 30 mpg on the highway if they can.

 

So, despite the endless divestitures/restructurings and countless layoffs/buyouts, in the end the Ford has the wrong product for $5 gallon gas, way too much debt, and makes too little profit on smaller cars.

GAWD DARN IT Richard... How much longer do we have to put up with this troll? Your idea of free speech isn't working well. Here this frigging troll can say anything about Ford while neglecting to mention that the same thing is happening to his beloved toyoda.

 

Meanwhile threads are popping up on his toyoda about how their using slave labor and he'll neglect to mention one word of that or that their pushing 2-tier wages now in their plants. But YOU- RICHARD allow him to say anything he wants about Ford.

 

So whats really up with that? Call a halt to this now.. just ban his account - this has dragged on for months.. he brings nothing to the table. Perhaps he also blogs for Al-Jazerra.

 

Seriously,, this is getting out of hand.. JUST DO IT! pull the plug, man. BAN HIM

[Ralph Greene]

I've seen no effect on the wealthy to be honest with you. I don't see anyone rushing out to trade their MB or BMW with Buicks. $4 gas is really not that big of a deal. Even if you drive a lot, it's only $300-400 more a month. Hardly anything to panic about for the usual luxury customer.

 

Sorry I wasn't clear about what I meant. I didn't mean $4 gasoline hurts the wealhy. What I meant is the wealthy didn't get that way by being stupid about money. They see how the higher fuel costs are affecting the value of their vehicles, and it turns them off about buying vehicles. They understand the real cost of vehicle ownership is depreciation first, then fuel, maintenance, insurance, etc. These are people who measure their net worth regularly, and buying hi deprecating cars is getting less and less fun. Instead of trading in that Lincoln every few years, they may just decide to keep it ten years, after all it's not much worn. They, particularly as they age, aren't usually into impulse buying like working type people. And Fords luxuy vehicles sell mostly to older folks. How do you keep them coming ino the show rooms if they lose interest in buying new vehicles?

Edited June 19, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[rmc523]

Even more interesting is this sentence in The Wall Street Journal story:

 

"People briefed on the matter say the auto maker also has discussed killing off at least one future Hummer SUV product, and potentially axing another brand. (emphasis added)

 

I assume that this would be a brand in addition to Hummer.

 

Pontiac? Saab? Saturn?

 

I think I'd vote Saturn, it's role can be easily filled by Chevy.

[rmc523]

Hey,, side note. I just spent about 30 min's crawling all over an '09 F150. Short bed, Lariet. %.4L 3V engine. Also had that new black plastic bed extender gate on the rear.

 

It wasn't something I would write home to Mom about. I'm not too much of a pick-em up type of guy that knows everything about them, but. When you pop the hood, the grill goes up with the hood. like a Ram. I don't see a problem with the bed being too high. It looked very normal (4 Ft. highish) to me and I'm no giant, only in my own mind.

 

And you can store a small piece of luggage behind that grill now, almost like they made a pocket for it there.

 

Interior was ok in my book, nice blend of a wood look and fabric/plastic. Not a good idea of a light colour on a truck interior for me. I tend to think of dirty jobs type of people wanting to use a truck. Sun roof and both rear door opened. Can seat 5/6 total and good leg room in the rear, but don't do that cross-country unless your hauling people up from below the border.

 

The grille has gone up with the hood since the 04 redesign.

 

Personally, I like tan interiors, but with it being a truck interior, I can understand where you're coming from.

[Sixt9coug]

GAWD DARN IT Richard... How much longer do we have to put up with this troll? Your idea of free speech isn't working well. Here this frigging troll can say anything about Ford while neglecting to mention that the same thing is happening to his beloved toyoda.

 

Meanwhile threads are popping up on his toyoda about how their using slave labor and he'll neglect to mention one word of that or that their pushing 2-tier wages now in their plants. But YOU- RICHARD allow him to say anything he wants about Ford.

 

So whats really up with that? Call a halt to this now.. just ban his account - this has dragged on for months.. he brings nothing to the table. Perhaps he also blogs for Al-Jazerra.

 

Seriously,, this is getting out of hand.. JUST DO IT! pull the plug, man. BAN HIM

 

 

+1 !!!!!

 

This guy is an idiot that does not bring a damn thing to the table in the LEAST. All of the arguments have holes large enough to drive a depreciated value Excursion through and it needs to stop.

 

How about we start a Ban Mlhhhmmhhmhmmhm thread? P is FAR less annoying than this guy.

[630land]

Trucks are not trendy anymore and dont need 'all new' looks every few years to please hobbyists.

[jpd80]

Trucks are not trendy anymore and dont need 'all new' looks every few years to please hobbyists.

I look forward to more people discovering the Focus and the C1 when it arrives.

Another line of vehicles between Focus and Fusion couldn't hurt and would increase showroom variety.

maybe Ford could look at a "Tempo" off the Focus (C1?) rather than chasing more Fusion sales.

Edited June 20, 2008 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

Trucks are not trendy anymore and dont need 'all new' looks every few years to please hobbyists.

 

Why not? And it's not like only "hobbyists" are buying them. Geesh. People are talking around here like Ford is suddenly only going to be selling 1500 F-150s a month or something. There always needs to be a reason to buy the "latest and greatest". Ignoring and pushing off redesigns would be a huge mistake.

[wescoent]

I look forward to more people discovering the Focus and the C1 when it arrives.

Another line of vehicles between Focus and Fusion couldn't hurt and would increase showroom variety.

maybe Ford could look at a "Tempo" off the Focus (C1?) rather than chasing more Fusion sales.

 

Eh.

 

Rather than develop a larger C1 sedan variant to fill a gap between the Focus and Fusion, I'd much sooner put a smaller engine in the Fusion. 2.0-2.3 I4 to slot under the 2.5 I4. Maybe a 120hp EcoBoost 1.8L, or something like that.

[rmc523]

I look forward to more people discovering the Focus and the C1 when it arrives.

Another line of vehicles between Focus and Fusion couldn't hurt and would increase showroom variety.

maybe Ford could look at a "Tempo" off the Focus (C1?) rather than chasing more Fusion sales.

 

What pricepoint would it be at then. I think adding another car in between those too would almost be splitting the lineup too much. Now, if the model were some sort of mini crossover or something maybe it could work, but another car, I'm not sure.

[jpd80]

What pricepoint would it be at then. I think adding another car in between those too would almost be splitting the lineup too much. Now, if the model were some sort of mini crossover or something maybe it could work, but another car, I'm not sure.

A Focus based "Tempo" (edit, C1 C-Max?) could start at $16,000

At the moment, Focus starts just over $14,000 and Fusion starts just over $18,000.

Increase the Fusion's wheelbase to 109" to help differentiation and echo the prolific DN101 Taurus.

D3 Taurus at just over $23,000 could then be wider like the Flex to make it a true big car replacement.

Edited June 21, 2008 by jpd80

[rmc523]

A Focus based "Tempo" (edit, C1 C-Max?) could start at $16,000

At the moment, Focus starts just over $14,000 and Fusion starts just over $18,000.

Increase the Fusion's wheelbase to 109" to help differentiation and echo the prolific DN101 Taurus.

D3 Taurus at just over $23,000 could then be wider like the Flex to make it a true big car replacement.

 

Well I was just thinking of how much overlap there would be in pricepoints, especially when you get into options with Focus compared to a base Fusion.

 

This is the current C-Max:

 

I'm not sure how well that look would do in the US, but I think something more along the lines of this (see below) with more style than the existing model could do well.

Edited June 21, 2008 by rmc523

[armadamaster]

GM is freezing work on 2012 large pickups

 

Still don't cure ugly.

[jpd80]

Well I was just thinking of how much overlap there would be in pricepoints, especially when you get into options with Focus compared to a base Fusion.

 

This is the current C-Max:

 

I'm not sure how well that look would do in the US, but I think something more along the lines of this (see below) with more style than the existing model could do well.

I agree with Kuga for the US and perhaps this Focus Wagon over the C- Max:

 

Edited June 21, 2008 by jpd80

[rmc523]

I agree with Kuga for the US and perhaps this Focus Wagon over the C- Max:

 

 

I'm not sure how the current C-Max would do in the US market, and given the track record of how wagons sell in the US, I'm not sure how well a Focus wagon would do. That said, the current C-Max to me looks minivan-ish, so I think I might be more of an advocate of the Focus wagon, at least from a design standpoint. Thinking about it though, a minivan-esque type vehicle in this segment could theoretically do okay because there's really not too many (if any) vehicles like it in that segment. I do think that a more crossover look (like Edge), more along the lines of the second picture I posted above would sell better in the US though.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

I'm not sure how the current C-Max would do in the US market, and given the track record of how wagons sell in the US, I'm not sure how well a Focus wagon would do. That said, the current C-Max to me looks minivan-ish, so I think I might be more of an advocate of the Focus wagon, at least from a design standpoint. Thinking about it though, a minivan-esque type vehicle in this segment could theoretically do okay because there's really not too many (if any) vehicles like it in that segment. I do think that a more crossover look (like Edge), more along the lines of the second picture I posted above would sell better in the US though.

 

C-Max is not a big seller in Europe the Focus wagon would sell better Stateside.

[F250]

Hey,, side note. I just spent about 30 min's crawling all over an '09 F150. Short bed, Lariet. %.4L 3V engine. Also had that new black plastic bed extender gate on the rear.

 

It wasn't something I would write home to Mom about. I'm not too much of a pick-em up type of guy that knows everything about them, but. When you pop the hood, the grill goes up with the hood. like a Ram. I don't see a problem with the bed being too high. It looked very normal (4 Ft. highish) to me and I'm no giant, only in my own mind.

 

And you can store a small piece of luggage behind that grill now, almost like they made a pocket for it there.

 

Interior was ok in my book, nice blend of a wood look and fabric/plastic. Not a good idea of a light colour on a truck interior for me. I tend to think of dirty jobs type of people wanting to use a truck. Sun roof and both rear door opened. Can seat 5/6 total and good leg room in the rear, but don't do that cross-country unless your hauling people up from below the border.

 

As someone already mentioned the grille has ben attached to the hood since 2004. The size of the '09 grille and the added space behind it will be need for the extra cooling requirements of the diesel that will soon be available for the F-150. Look at the cooling systems behind the grilles of the Super Duty diesels. If you are doing real dirty jobs in your truck get the XL vinyl seats and floor mat. Black plastic bed extender is much better than the old 1-piece aluminum type because it seperates in the middle and folds flat against the bed side if not needed.

[F250]

Look at it from GMs point of view. Currently, they hold the lead in full sized pickup fuel economy among the three largest nameplates in the biz. Their biggest competitor is playing catchup in that department and has already announced a lineup for the next two calendar years that will not change that. In that time period, they have already engineered a high efficiency Diesel engine that, from preliminary leaked specs, leads its upcoming class in both power and fuel economy. So, unless Ford or Chrysler pull something amazing out of their hat to improve their fuel efficiency by over 15% across the board (20% for Chrysler) GM will basically have the market leadership on the one aspect of a truck that will likely make the biggest difference in a casual truck buyer's mind (as well as the fleet buyer looking at fuel as a growing portion of TCO).

 

While ecoboost is all well and good, fleet buyers likely will shy away from it for a while due to its untested nature. That will leave GM with a virtual lead in the market for a few years after they may have lost the technical lead. Casual buyers might pick it up more, but, that market is shrinking more and more each day that gas prices stay at or above $4 a gallon.

 

In the fleet market, base capabilities are what tends to sell a truck. Brand loyalty is there for some shops, but, for the ones that are trying to reduce their TCO, then fuel usage will be a big concern. If I was GM, I'd likely plan for the next update to the GMTX000 series to be modest in scope, focusing more on integrating new infotainment and work flow technology into the vehicle as well as focusing on ways to increase operating efficiency. Trucks aren't going to be alternates to SUVs like they once were. That can be done by reduced dedicated resources to the truck itself and more in the cross-platform teams that develop systems that can be used in multiple vehicles and powertrain engineering, which is also cross platform. For GM, this is really, on the surface, a no-brainer. Especially when you consider that, in the half-ton market, when you combine the Sierra and silverado volumes together, they have a comfortable lead over their closest competitor and already plan to reduce production capacity anyway.

 

 

Um, yea. Lets look at GM's fuel economy advantage.

2008 F-150 4.6L-V8 2WD: 14 city 19 highway. 2008 Silverado 4.8L-V8 2WD: 14 city 19 highway. advantage-0 MPG

2008 F-150 4.2L-V6 2WD: 14 city 19 highway. 2008 Silverado 4.3L-V6 2WD: 15 city 20 highway. advantage-1 MPG !!

 

I chose these these 2 configurations because they are the most popular fleet order specs.

 

MPG stats are from the U.S.Gov.

Edited June 23, 2008 by F250